Gratuities

[sgmn]

2 minutes ago, steveru621 said:

 

 

Wow, $12.45 USD is not a living wage in the US when you can make that much on welfare.

 

Mythical living wage.

🤷‍♀️ just answering Carole's question

Edited April 3, 2022 by sgmn

[not-enough-cruising]

19 minutes ago, steveru621 said:

 

 

Wow, $12.45 USD is not a living wage in the US when you can make that much on welfare.

 

Mythical living wage.

The social services in the UK are much greater than those in the US.  I assume this offsets many of the wage disparities.

[CaroleSS]

43 minutes ago, sgmn said:

🤷‍♀️ just answering Carole's question

I do appreciate the answer!

based upon this 

https://jobdescription-library.com/cost-of-living-uk

Let's do a little math.......

• The average living cost for a single person in the UK is £2,005 per month

That includes housing, food, utilities, clothing, entertainment and commuting. If multiply by 12 (to get annual), then divide by 2080 (the number of working hours in a year) we get £11.57 as a "living wage"

 

Even with the social services offered, £9.50 isn't a "living wage".

 

and.....£11.57 = $15.10. This is the definition of a "living wage" in the US.

Edited April 3, 2022 by CaroleSS

[LGW59]

This thread has taken more twists and turns than the Yellow Brick Road.  It's about gratuities on a cruise ship for crying out loud, not deciding what country pays the best/worst wages, good/bad social saftey nets.  Auto grats, keep em where they are and don't remove them, additional grats. good on ya if that is YOUR decision, the crew will appreciate it.  I am an additional tipper over and above what is included, but that is my personal choice.  

[CaroleSS]

If I look here

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Waiter%2FWaitress/Hourly_Rate

 

the average hourly pay for waitstaff in the UK is £7.03.......far below the defined "living wage" of £9.50.

 

Maybe tips would raise them up a bit? Or maybe your dining out experience should go up by 35% so they could have a living wage?

Edited April 3, 2022 by CaroleSS

[billslowsky]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:02 PM, chefchick said:

Yes and those of you who are so offended by tipping culture and/or too cheap to pay what should be a mandatory charge would be the first to complain that the fares have gotten “out of hand” if they rolled those fees into the base fare.   Or maybe you think you have a better way to handle the complicated procedure of dividing the auto gratuities among those who have face time with guests and those who assist behind the scenes?  Because for everyone who removes the auto grats so they can hand out $ to “those who deserve it” has no idea what it takes to run a cruise line as efficiently as they are run by a whole team.

 

Is the current system perfect?  No, probably not, but it’s as fair as it’s going to be for the time being.  Just like you cannot remove port fees or taxes, you shouldn’t remove the auto gratuities.  Tipping additional is completely optional of course, but just as the crew “has alternatives” you as a consumer have alternatives for your vacation money if tipping is just too unfair for you.

 

Yes, someone who would suggest that building the gratuity into the full fare would surely be the first to object to it.  There's some real deep logic.

 

Then you rant on about "you cannot remove port fees or taxes, you shouldn’t remove the auto gratuities".  By all means explain the difference between having a separate gratuity that you can't remove and building the amount of the gratuity into the base fare.

 

Your comments are absolutely profound.  Please share more of this insight.

[CaroleSS]

2 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

This thread has taken more twists and turns than the Yellow Brick Road.  It's about gratuities on a cruise ship for crying out loud, not deciding what country pays the best/worst wages, good/bad social saftey nets.  Auto grats, keep em where they are and don't remove them, additional grats. good on ya if that is YOUR decision, the crew will appreciate it.  I am an additional tipper over and above what is included, but that is my personal choice.  

Amen!

 

Anything that they do to enrich my holiday is more than worth it!

 

it is the "custom" on cruise lines.......pay the grats!

[CaroleSS]

I will be first in line to espouse building gratuities into the base fare. Show it as a line item on the overall cost, along with port fees and taxes. Be honest and upfront about it and move on.

 

The problem then becomes "advertising". Each line wants to offer a "bargain" to lure you in......not unlike buying a car.....oh, you want tires on that car, oh you want seats (outlandish example, I know, but trying to make a point). If every cruise line would agree to advertise the "true" price of a cruise, then these threads become moot. Then we will just have threads about how much the cost of cruising has increased (although it really didn't). "An inside room used to cost $200 and now it's $500.....how dare they do that?!?!"

 

Alas, I think we will see the end of chair hogs on the pool deck before THAT happens!

Edited April 3, 2022 by CaroleSS

[crazyank]

2 hours ago, CaroleSS said:

I will be first in line to espouse building gratuities into the base fare. Show it as a line item on the overall cost, along with port fees and taxes. Be honest and upfront about it and move on.

 

The problem then becomes "advertising". Each line wants to offer a "bargain" to lure you in......not unlike buying a car.....oh, you want tires on that car, oh you want seats (outlandish example, I know, but trying to make a point). If every cruise line would agree to advertise the "true" price of a cruise, then these threads become moot. Then we will just have threads about how much the cost of cruising has increased (although it really didn't). "An inside room used to cost $200 and now it's $500.....how dare they do that?!?!"

 

Alas, I think we will see the end of chair hogs on the pool deck before THAT happens!

And stop calling it gratuities because then it would be a service charge.

Edited April 3, 2022 by crazyank

[cruiseboy89130]

It is a gratuity because you can remove it any time - no questions asked!

[CaroleSS]

@crazyank was referring back to my post about including it as a line item in the overall cruise cost.

[PTC DAWG]

3 hours ago, LGW59 said:

This thread has taken more twists and turns than the Yellow Brick Road.  It's about gratuities on a cruise ship for crying out loud, not deciding what country pays the best/worst wages, good/bad social saftey nets.  Auto grats, keep em where they are and don't remove them, additional grats. good on ya if that is YOUR decision, the crew will appreciate it.  I am an additional tipper over and above what is included, but that is my personal choice.  

Well said. 

[katiel53]

7 hours ago, glentally said:

Is it ethical to exclude certain people from going on a cruise?  Sorry no tips for me.  I need to save it for my testing requirements.

I have to voice my opinion.  I think it is unethical to not tip as I don't want to pay for part of YOUR cruise.  The cruise line has contracts with employees that guarantee a certain income.  When people like you, don't tip, in theory the cruise line has to make it up.  You don't believe for one minute that the cruise line is going to do so out of the goodness of their hearts.  I am already paying enough, with my tips etc so I don't need to contribute to yours..  

 

I do wish that the tips were made a mandatory service charge, so ALL would have to pay unless there were a serious issue that could not be resolved, and that portion of the tip could be removed.  I doubt that you don't eat on the ship, have your cabin cleaned etc.

 

My thought is that if you can't afford to tip, you shouldn't be cruising.  If you went out to dinner at a nice restaurant, would you stiff the waiter?  To me you are abusing the staff by removing your tips.  You wouldn't work for next to nothing, so why should they?   If the cruise line raised their wages to what you consider a livable wage, who do you think is going to pay for it?  It's going to you and me and all others cruising.  That's why I think a mandatory service charge is needed. I know this is just my opinion, and yours is obviously very different.

[ONECRUISER]

4 hours ago, CaroleSS said:

I will be first in line to espouse building gratuities into the base fare. Show it as a line item on the overall cost, along with port fees and taxes. Be honest and upfront about it and move on.

 

The problem then becomes "advertising". Each line wants to offer a "bargain" to lure you in......not unlike buying a car.....oh, you want tires on that car, oh you want seats (outlandish example, I know, but trying to make a point). If every cruise line would agree to advertise the "true" price of a cruise, then these threads become moot. Then we will just have threads about how much the cost of cruising has increased (although it really didn't). "An inside room used to cost $200 and now it's $500.....how dare they do that?!?!"

 

Alas, I think we will see the end of chair hogs on the pool deck before THAT happens!

Nah, Shoot pay Ton less for Royal Cruise now then did 25-30 yrs ago. My First Royal Cruise in 1988 was $500 per day for the 2 of us in an Ocean View Cabin. $3500 total. Paid less then that for my SOLO Jewel B3B in Balcony Cabin that starts this week. Cheapest Cruises were for 8 Months post 9/11, almost gave them away... But extras? That's in many Travel prices inc Disney(Food/Fast-Passes) and lot Airlines. I like that, Fly for $100 or less one way, they can keep the Extras, I'm not paying. Same with Cruises, rather pay less base, I dont Buy Shore Excursions or Drink Packages. With that money I save every enough that every 3rd or 4th Cruise is paid for.

[exm]

I'm originally from Europe, living in the States almost 20 years. It took me a while to get used to tipping, but it's really simple: salaries are based and adjusted on the fact people get tipped. Period. If you don't like, and refuse to tip, you really hurt the 'little guy'. For this to change, laws have to be changed and just like adopting to the (far superior) metric system, won't happen.

 

On a side note: there have been a few occasions where I seriously 'under-tipped' or left no tip at all but they really have to mess up for that. The folks at cruise ships work hard and deserve their tips.

[SRF]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:48 AM, Akkers said:

SRF - my understanding is that an employer employs a person to a job and to do the job to the best of ability and to a set standard. So if an employee is putting in 60% effort normally and 100% when paid a tip, I as an employer should be worried.

I am not sure about your country but here in the UK you can work your butt off but will never get extra money (or at least its very rare). Some 25 years ago I created something at work that saved £10m for my employer and its allied companies. They used that creation happily but did they give me a pay rise or a promotion? Hell NO!

 

Then you should find another employer. 🙂

 

But then again, you are not in a tipped job.  But some US companies and even parts of the US Government give employees a percentage bonus based on how much money your idea saved. So if you worked for the right employer in the US, you could have earned 1 million pounds.

 

But bottom line is, we are not UK.  The US service industry is tip based.  And no amount of your whining will change that.

[SRF]

On 4/2/2022 at 12:37 PM, Akkers said:

We dont have such a problem in the UK. If a member of staff does not give you good service then we just dont go back. The employers know that and if their staff are underperforming then they have to take action rather than promote a tipping culture. Here a member of staff is employed to do the best and meet certain standards. If they are not flipping tables in a timely manner then it is the employers fault for not maintaining standards. Any employer will know that if standards are not maintained then their business will go down.

 

 

That does not work when the service is uniformly poor overall restaurants. 😄

[SRF]

On 4/1/2022 at 7:55 AM, Akkers said:

In this long discussion no-one has been able to convince me why a living wage cannot be paid to an employee and why tipping is necessary.

IMO tipping is pity money and no one should have to stick their hands out for extra cash; they should get a just wage for the work they do.

 

It is a cultural thing.  You do many things differently that we do.  Starting with you driving on the wrong side of the road?  Why do you persist on doing that??????

 

It is NOT pity money.  It is a perk of providing a higher level of service.  Servers do not ask or beg for it, it is freely given (as it part of our culture)) at a level based on the service provided.

 

[Subman738]

On 2/7/2022 at 9:21 AM, Akkers said:

 

I do eat in restaurants and have room cleaned. But what I am saying is that everyone is bound to use these services so why not include them in the base price. As others have said above that tyey do this to lower the base price to get customers and then hit them with these 'extras' which are not really extras but mandatory fees in effect.

I do believe that some cruise lines have all inclusive packages where gratituties, drinks and wi-fi are included in teh base price.

Since I don't drink that much and don't use the ships WIFI I would rather have those items broken out as separate items instead of having to pay a higher fare for all inclusive drinks/wifi that I wouldn't get my money's worth from. That is why the cruise lines offer a drinks package and a WIFI package for those who want to partake can purchase those packages up front and not have to worry about those cost during their entire cruise. I do agree that the daily gratuities/daily service charge should be included in the base fare to make things more transparent and straightforward.

[Akkers]

49 minutes ago, SRF said:

The US service industry is tip based.  And no amount of your whining will change that.

Fair enough; keep it there. So why do we have to conform to your standards when we cruise in the Caribbean or Mediteranean?

I agree, things like Wi-Fi, drinks etc can be made optional as not everyone wants to use them; those that do want to use can pay for it. But wages for staff - they deserve to be paid, no if no buts. So why is it optional? Include in the base cost and pay the staff the right amount. Whats so difficult about that?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Akkers

[strickerj]

On 4/1/2022 at 2:47 PM, The Scurvy Pirate said:

Being from the US, my experience related to restaurant service was for a couple of days prior to a cruise in Austrailia, where they do not tip but they get a minimum wage.  In every bar and restaurant the service was terrible.  Slow with the service, slow with drinks and food.  It took 40 forevers to get the bill, as after bringing the food they disappeared.  There is no motivation to flip tables.  So, whether they do one table a night or flip it 3x times, they get the same amount of money.  Again, this was my one experience in a non-tipping situation and your mileage may vary.

This was my experience in Paris, and everywhere we dined there, an 18% "service charge" was automatically added to the menu prices. So, it's true that taxes are included in published prices, but I don't understand those who claim the price listed is the price you pay in Europe when the service charge isn't included. (As an aside, I once dined in a very European-style restaurant in Miami where the service charge was automatically added to the bill, and guess what? The service was so abysmal that the busser actually refilled our drinks at one point because our waiter disappeared for so long. I slipped her a tip in cash.)

 

But the bottom line is, despite its flaws, this is the system we have in place for various historical and cultural reasons. Anyone who thinks they're going to "stick it to the man" by not tipping is just deluding themselves; you're only sticking it to the waiter in that case.

 

Now if you really want something to get up in arms about, let me tell you about hotel "resort fees". ;)

[strickerj]

20 hours ago, steveru621 said:

 

 

Wow, $12.45 USD is not a living wage in the US when you can make that much on welfare.

 

Mythical living wage.

I think that depends on where you are in the U.S. I'm not against states and cities imposing higher minimum wages if they so desire, but people in New York, San Francisco, Seattle, etc. petitioning the federal government for a much higher minimum wage don't understand that this would wreck the local economies in areas where the cost of living is lower.

[rudeney]

If you really want to argue against tipping, just claim it's racist, like this article:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tipping-jobs-history-slave-wage-cbsn-originals-documentary/

 

Personally, I find the practice of tipping to be a good thing.  It puts me, the customer, in charge of paying for the personalized service I receive.  Instead of having to report exceptionally good or bad service to a manager, I get to express my disappointment or gratitude directly to the person providing the service.  Just as I factor in sales tax (which is 10% or more where I live), I factor in a tip when I eat in a restaurant or use personal services such as getting a haircut or massage.  I even tip when I order carry-out, especially if the person giving me my food takes the time to go through the items ordered and ensure that everything is correct.    

 

The alternative to this is that the restaurant (or cruise line) raises prices by 20% and now the employees are guaranteed a certain wage, like in the fast-food industry.  Imagine the experience of eating a meal at a nice restaurant when the server has the same attitude as the cashier at McDonald's.  I have encountered a few very nice cashiers, but that's the rare exception.  Most of them act like they hate their jobs and customers are a barely acceptable annoyance.  That would make for a very unpleasant meal/cruise.

 

[strickerj]

19 minutes ago, rudeney said:

If you really want to argue against tipping, just claim it's racist, like this article:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tipping-jobs-history-slave-wage-cbsn-originals-documentary/

...

 

I'm digressing here, but don't you just love pundits/activists calling voluntary employment "literally slavery"? IMHO, overusing the term trivializes the atrocities actual slaves faced.

 

I'm not making a judgement on the virtues of tipping culture here, but it just seems to get grossly misrepresented by those who don't really understand it.

[PhillyFan33579]

1 hour ago, Akkers said:

Fair enough; keep it there. So why do we have to conform to your standards when we cruise in the Caribbean or Mediteranean?

I agree, things like Wi-Fi, drinks etc can be made optional as not everyone wants to use them; those that do want to use can pay for it. But wages for staff - they deserve to be paid, no if no buts. So why is it optional? Include in the base cost and pay the staff the right amount. Whats so difficult about that?

If the cruise line includes it in the base cost of the cruise, it now becomes income for the cruise line. I agree with you that gratuities should be included in the cruise fare, but there are huge financial reasons why most cruise lines “pay” their employees using gratuities.