Tipping extra cash in MDR

[Hlitner]

This thread has gone off in an interesting (to me) direction.  The idea of a "Team" can go different ways.  Many of us have been exposed to "team building" exercises and reality in the work place.  Others have experienced team comradery on sports teams.  But being part of a team does not generally mean equal compensation, equal privileges, or equal anything.  It simply means working together to achieve the desired goal.  Consider that the New York Yankees are certainly a team, but the members get compensated differently (ranging from over $30 million to $700,000).   Even on cruise ships in the olden days when we tipped with envelopes, the suggested tips were to give a waiter a lot more per day than an assistant waiter.  And in those days there was no such thing as also tipping the laundry worker who took care of the tableclothes and napkins.  But they were also a valuable part of the team.  

 

When you go to a good restaurant, many folks give a generous tip to their waiter.  They do not tip the driver who brings the clean linens to that restaurant.  The dishwasher does not get tipped, etc. etc.  I live in Puerto Vallarta for part of the year and dine out every day.  In quite a few of the restaurants we pay with a major credit card!  But in that city/country I generally do not include the tip on my credit card payment because it would put that money under the control of management, and I have no clue where that money goes.  So, although I pay by credit card, I will often give a nice tip (in Pesos) to our waiter. Whether that waiter later chooses to share his tip with some others on his/her "team" is entirely up to the waiter.  In Mexico it is not uncommon to have a bar or restaurant waiter come over and quietly say, "I am going home now so I would appreciate my tip."  And yes, we take care of the individual and not what Elaine thinks of as the team!    One could argue that mandatory tip sharing is simply a form of pure communism where everyone would get the same tip, and there is no motivation for the individual to do any more than the minimum.  The idea of rewarding excellence is a different concept to which we add our support.

 

Hank

 

 

[DirtyDawg]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

This thread has gone off in an interesting (to me) direction.  The idea of a "Team" can go different ways.  Many of us have been exposed to "team building" exercises and reality in the work place.  Others have experienced team comradery on sports teams.  But being part of a team does not generally mean equal compensation, equal privileges, or equal anything.  It simply means working together to achieve the desired goal.  Consider that the New York Yankees are certainly a team, but the members get compensated differently (ranging from over $30 million to $700,000).   Even on cruise ships in the olden days when we tipped with envelopes, the suggested tips were to give a waiter a lot more per day than an assistant waiter.  And in those days there was no such thing as also tipping the laundry worker who took care of the tableclothes and napkins.  But they were also a valuable part of the team.  

 

When you go to a good restaurant, many folks give a generous tip to their waiter.  They do not tip the driver who brings the clean linens to that restaurant.  The dishwasher does not get tipped, etc. etc.  I live in Puerto Vallarta for part of the year and dine out every day.  In quite a few of the restaurants we pay with a major credit card!  But in that city/country I generally do not include the tip on my credit card payment because it would put that money under the control of management, and I have no clue where that money goes.  So, although I pay by credit card, I will often give a nice tip (in Pesos) to our waiter. Whether that waiter later chooses to share his tip with some others on his/her "team" is entirely up to the waiter.  In Mexico it is not uncommon to have a bar or restaurant waiter come over and quietly say, "I am going home now so I would appreciate my tip."  And yes, we take care of the individual and not what Elaine thinks of as the team!    One could argue that mandatory tip sharing is simply a form of pure communism where everyone would get the same tip, and there is no motivation for the individual to do any more than the minimum.  The idea of rewarding excellence is a different concept to which we add our support.

 

Hank

 

 

When I was a PM and the head of our Team I was the highest paid and earned the most bonus dollars so our team member compensation resembled the Yankees  - just scaled back a few zeros. I knew I never should have turned down Scott Boras when he offered to be my salary negotiator.  🤬  😉 That difference in compensation did not mean we were not a team. We were a team and each member played an important role. And like the Yankees some team members were most important to the team success than others and our compensation, like the Yankee's compensation, reflected that. I will have to go back and read what all the 'team' tippers have said in this thread at some point but I don't recall that they were advocating for equal sharing of the extra tips, just sharing of the extra tips among the various team members - there is a big difference between the two. 

 

So, I hope everyone tips extra as you please because at the end of the day none of us has any control over what the tip recipient actually does with our tips. They might keep 100 percent. They might keep 75% and allocated the rest among their team. They might even do a Marx and split it equally. Of course they might even pull a Stalin and keep 100% but say they split it equally. 😉

 

So we really have zero control over what they do with our extra tips. Just like I have no control over what pitches Taillon will be throwing tonight for the Yanks against the Orioles. I hope they are all batting practice fastballs and the Birds crush those damn Yankees! My Blue Jays need all the help they can get! 😁 But alas, I have zero control over that Taillon will do tonight. Maybe I should pre-tip him to throw only batting practice fastballs! But that's for another thread entirely! 😁

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by DirtyDawg

[navybankerteacher]

16 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Then add their names to your survey , that isn't shared.  Cash is.  

Cash is only shared if it built into the staffing arrangements. Everything I have ever seen posted by cruise lines on the subject has indicated that, if the auto tip is left in place, additional cash tips may be kept by the recipient—- and if the auto tip is removed, cash tips are to be added to the pool.

 

You are certainly entitled to have your view as to how such extra cash tips might be handled, but I question the apparent certainty with which you continually reiterate that view as fixed doctrine on all cruise lines (and perhaps restaurants).  

[rkacruiser]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Even on cruise ships in the olden days when we tipped with envelopes, the suggested tips were to give a waiter a lot more per day than an assistant waiter. 

 

If I was going to offer an additional gratuity to the individuals who served me in the dining room and my stateroom, this "old standard" is what I used and felt was appropriate.  I still do so for most additional tipping in the dining room.  For my cabin stewards, it has become difficult to find both of them on duty during the last night when I offer an additional gratuity.  So, I use one envelope with the same amount that each would have gotten individually, put their names on the envelope with a note addressed to both, and give it to whichever one of them I can find.  

 

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

One could argue that mandatory tip sharing is simply a form of pure communism where everyone would get the same tip, and there is no motivation for the individual to do any more than the minimum.

 

Interesting!  I had not thought of it in that way.  

 

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

The idea of rewarding excellence is a different concept to which we add our support.

 

 

Agree!  And, rewarding excellence does not always mean that reward needs to be money.  

[rkacruiser]

16 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

 https://saverocity.com/travel/a-rough-guide-to-cruise-ship-hierarchy-and-cruise-ship-mafia/

 

During one cruise where the Hotel Manager was a gentleman with whom I had sailed a few times before and knew me more than superficially, I decided to try to obtain such a chart like this because I have long been interested in the behind the scenes working of a ship.  I failed in my attempt.  Some pleasant conversations with the gentleman, but, I could not get him to generate a chart like this for me.

 

The chart you posted is interesting, but, I think somewhat simplistic, particularly in the MDR organization, which has been the prime topic of this thread.  Where does the Maitre d' fit?  Where does the Assistant Maitre d's fit?  Are they management (which I think they are and therefore do not participate in a tipping pool or as part of the auto-tips paid by a guest)?  

 

If management, is a gratuity appropriate for these individuals?  (One does not tip the Captain, Hotel Manager, etc.)  

 

Under the "old standard", if a Maitre d' or an assistant did provide a special service, a tip would be very appropriate.  And, I suspect, if one considers the actions of First Class guests on RMS Queen Mary during the " really olden days", these individuals did tip the Maitre d' whether any special service was provided or not.  

[Toofarfromthesea]

18 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

Very true. I might want to reward the team for exceptional service with this extra tip we are all talking about here. Not the regular auto-tip, mind you, an extra tip.

 

This is where giving them the ever popular picture of your family, or the trinket you bought at port comes into play.  Not much risk of them being shared.  😜

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Cash is only shared if it built into the staffing arrangements. Everything I have ever seen posted by cruise lines on the subject has indicated that, if the auto tip is left in place, additional cash tips may be kept by the recipient—- and if the auto tip is removed, cash tips are to be added to the pool.

 

You are certainly entitled to have your view as to how such extra cash tips might be handled, but I question the apparent certainty with which you continually reiterate that view as fixed doctrine on all cruise lines (and perhaps restaurants).  

We have heard that "rumor" but to the best of our knowledge it is just a rumor.  And that rumor would not likely apply to all the different cruise lines.  It has recently been posted that at least one major cruise line has gone to a fleet-wide pool which apparently means the tipping pool is aggregated for the entire cruise line and given out via some mysterious (top secret) formula.   I would suggest that folks try asking, on their next cruise, for the formula used for the distribution of auto-tips.  I suspect you will get a little lip service but nothing in writing (or even verbally) that will tell you what actually happens to your auto-tips.  Before the COVID shut-down, I remarked to one Celebrity Hotel Manager (who we had met a few times) that it seemed strange that the cruise line would not tell passengers how their own money (i.e. autotips) was distributed.   And as I have mentioned previously (and for many years) the big problem with any auto tip scheme is that it rewards the worst waiter (or steward) the same as the best waiter or steward.  The distribution decisions are made by management rather than the passengers who are the ones expected to give the tips.  Perhaps this is why one major cruise line now calls auto-tips "Crew Incentive."   In the real world a "crew incentive" should be their regular pay /benefits.  Tips should be seen as something extra and based on excellence!   

 

And lets be clear.  For folks like Elaine who buy into this team thing....they can certainly contribute more money to the "auto tip" pool by simply going to Guest Relations.  But does one even know that their money will go to the "team" on their ship...or perhaps a "team" on another ship...or maybe a "team" at the home office.  Perhaps Elaine could answer the simple question of "why those who are expected to pay the team have no clue who the team is...or how their money is distributed?"

 

Hank

[DirtyDawg]

9 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

This is where giving them the ever popular picture of your family, or the trinket you bought at port comes into play.  Not much risk of them being shared.  😜

Very True!

 

I wonder if any of us would be giving our bartender an extra tip, cash, photo, or trinket, if he/she poured us one of these?

 

https://www.foodandwine.com/news/velveeta-martini-blt-restaurants-goldbelly

 

🧀+🍸= Yummy?

[Toofarfromthesea]

14 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

Very True!

 

I wonder if any of us would be giving our bartender an extra tip, cash, photo, or trinket, if he/she poured us one of these?

 

https://www.foodandwine.com/news/velveeta-martini-blt-restaurants-goldbelly

 

🧀+🍸= Yummy?

 

He'd get a tip from me, within a minute of me drinking it.  In semi-liquid mushy form. (dang, can't ever find a barfing emoji when you need one)

[DirtyDawg]

19 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

... Just like I have no control over what pitches Taillon will be throwing tonight for the Yanks against the Orioles. I hope they are all batting practice fastballs and the Birds crush those damn Yankees! My Blue Jays need all the help they can get! 😁 But alas, I have zero control over that Taillon will do tonight. Maybe I should pre-tip him to throw only batting practice fastballs! But that's for another thread entirely! 😁

 

Last night's score.

Red Sox 5

Blue Jays 28

Beat them by over three touchdown! 🏈

 

 I'm sure glad I changed my mind and pre-tipped the Boston Red Sox pitchers last night! 😁

 

[rkacruiser]

22 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

Very True!

 

I wonder if any of us would be giving our bartender an extra tip, cash, photo, or trinket, if he/she poured us one of these?

 

https://www.foodandwine.com/news/velveeta-martini-blt-restaurants-goldbelly

 

🧀+🍸= Yummy?

 

I used to respect Food and Wine Magazine.  Reporting on such a slop like this?  What was the Editor thinking!  

[DirtyDawg]

2 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I used to respect Food and Wine Magazine.  Reporting on such a slop like this?  What was the Editor thinking!  

"Thank goodness, now we can survive another month with the big fat check Kraft wrote us to write this slop'" 😉

[navybankerteacher]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:41 PM, Hlitner said:

...

In the real world a "crew incentive" should be their regular pay /benefits.  Tips should be seen as something extra and based on excellence!   

 

And lets be clear.  For folks like Elaine who buy into this team thing....they can certainly contribute more money to the "auto tip" pool by simply going to Guest Relations.  But does one even know that their money will go to the "team" on their ship...or perhaps a "team" on another ship...or maybe a "team" at the home office.  Perhaps Elaine could answer the simple question of "why those who are expected to pay the team have no clue who the team is...or how their money is distributed?"

 

Hank

If I want to reward superior service by an individual i want that individual to receive the award.  If it is simply going to be shared among the "team" I will save myself the effort and let the cruise line dole it out after I add it to the autotip.   But the line has already advised me that the autotip covers such compensation.   If I cannot award superior service, I am not going to be strongly inclined to add anything to the autotip.

 

I am afraid that some people do not like the concept of performance-related compensation, and want everyone to get the same pay.  That, in my mind, is the surest way to disincentiveize superior performance -- why the hell try if you will simply get what the lowest common denominator gets allocated?

Edited July 24, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[ldubs]

On 7/22/2022 at 1:17 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

During one cruise where the Hotel Manager was a gentleman with whom I had sailed a few times before and knew me more than superficially, I decided to try to obtain such a chart like this because I have long been interested in the behind the scenes working of a ship.  I failed in my attempt.  Some pleasant conversations with the gentleman, but, I could not get him to generate a chart like this for me.

 

The chart you posted is interesting, but, I think somewhat simplistic, particularly in the MDR organization, which has been the prime topic of this thread.  Where does the Maitre d' fit?  Where does the Assistant Maitre d's fit?  Are they management (which I think they are and therefore do not participate in a tipping pool or as part of the auto-tips paid by a guest)?  

 

If management, is a gratuity appropriate for these individuals?  (One does not tip the Captain, Hotel Manager, etc.)  

 

Under the "old standard", if a Maitre d' or an assistant did provide a special service, a tip would be very appropriate.  And, I suspect, if one considers the actions of First Class guests on RMS Queen Mary during the " really olden days", these individuals did tip the Maitre d' whether any special service was provided or not.  

 

I also think that the Maitre d' is management.  However I recall in the old days of those fat envelopes of cash on the last day, they always had a recommended amount for the Maitre d'.  

 

Not related, and I"m repeating myself, but I also remember all the empty seats in the dining room on the last night.   😀

[navybankerteacher]

10 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

…

 

Not related, and I"m repeating myself, but I also remember all the empty seats in the dining room on the last night.   😀

Actually, those empty seats were tangentially related — obviously the tip-avoidance strategy, which led to the lines adopting the auto tip concept.

[rkacruiser]

16 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I also think that the Maitre d' is management.  However I recall in the old days of those fat envelopes of cash on the last day, they always had a recommended amount for the Maitre d'.  

 

Not related, and I"m repeating myself, but I also remember all the empty seats in the dining room on the last night.   😀

 

I feel certain that Maitre d's are management.  At least, on the cruise lines with which I am most familiar.  On HAL, at least pre-Covid, there would be a rotation of the positions of MDR Manager (Maitre d') and the same position in the Lido Restaurant.  The rotation seemed to take place at the end of one cruise(s) and the beginning of the next cruise(s).

 

I also remember the envelopes of cash and the empty seats on the final evening.

 

6 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Actually, those empty seats were tangentially related — obviously the tip-avoidance strategy, which led to the lines adopting the auto tip concept.

 

The cruise lines cannot be blamed for adopting the auto tip concept.  The cheapskates that sailed before this policy had to be adopted are the reason for it.  

[ldubs]

55 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

The cruise lines cannot be blamed for adopting the auto tip concept.  The cheapskates that sailed before this policy had to be adopted are the reason for it.  

 

But I do like the current process so much better.  I remember Mrs Ldubs setting aside the combinations of  bills to make sure we had the right amounts for each envelope (envelopes and stacks of bills spread all over the bed, Haha).   And, I hope the staff like it more too, because we leave more than the recommended amount under the current system.  Before I don't remember leaving an additional amount.  Now, with pre-paid grats we typically leave envelopes with additional amounts at the end of the cruise for the cabin and dining staff.  

 

I 'm just not sure I like how the cruise line is manipulating how the grats are being distributed to staff.   I understand a portion of the gratuities going to the folks in the background, but other than that I'm in the camp that my tip is for the individual, not the corporate bonus pool.  What the individual wants to do with it is up to them.   

[wcook]

3 hours ago, ldubs said:

But I do like the current process so much better.  I remember Mrs Ldubs setting aside the combinations of  bills to make sure we had the right amounts for each envelope (envelopes and stacks of bills spread all over the bed, Haha).

Now if we can just take it to the next level, where ships pay their employees, prices go up a bit to cover, and gratuities are outlawed. 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, wcook said:

Now if we can just take it to the next level, where ships pay their employees, prices go up a bit to cover, and gratuities are outlawed. 

Are you against the concept of giving people compensation related to their performance?   On a cruise, a very important aspect of the job of many of the workers is to give the passengers a good time -- which cannot be totally separated from giving them good service.

 

In your work aren't people who do a better job rewarded for their efforts:  either commissions for people in sales, bonuses, raises related to performance, promotions related to performance, etc.?

 

Even if every staff member on board ship got $50.00 per hour, wouldn't some incentive be indicated for those who went above the minimum effort level?

 

Of course, you might not be able to observe -- the fares necessary to give everyone enough so they would not have to show any particular effort could make cruising unaffordable to you.

[Billish]

7 hours ago, wcook said:

Now if we can just take it to the next level, where ships pay their employees, prices go up a bit to cover, and gratuities are outlawed. 

Which is what various UK lines do (Saga, P&O,  Marella etc) although gratuuties are not exactly "outlawed".

Nice not to have all the angst that so many American cruisers have about who to tip, when to tip, how much to tip etc. 

[Hlitner]

16 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

..........................

 

The cruise lines cannot be blamed for adopting the auto tip concept.  The cheapskates that sailed before this policy had to be adopted are the reason for it.  

Not exactly.  What happened is mostly the result of mass market industry change from Fixed Dining to open dining and lots of alternative restaurant venues.  When NCL started their "Freestyle" and RCI, Princess and others went to an open dining venue there was a problem in how the watiers/assistant waiters could get tips.  Since many passengers had different dining staff each night and even changed dining venues, the old envelope method did not work.  Meanwhile, a few lines were also moving towards a team steward concept where cabins were served by a team of folks rather than a single steward.  The solution was to move to an autotip system.  I think the original auto tips were pretty much meant to just distribute tips to the usual folks (waiters, assistant waiters, cabin stewards) but quickly evolved into something else as cruise lines quietly expanded the beneficiaries of tipping pools.

In the beginning, several of the lines made a big deal out of the fact that autotips were voluntary and anyone could decrease (or increase) their contribution by simply asking at Guest Relations.   

 

Some of the luxury lines have never implemented auto tips or even tipping.  So, for example, on Seabourn some crew will actually refuse tips (others will take money if it is done quietly) and suggest that folks donate to a crew welfare fund maintained by the purser.

 

Hank

 

Hank

[Sea42]

11 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Are you against the concept of giving people compensation related to their performance?   On a cruise, a very important aspect of the job of many of the workers is to give the passengers a good time -- which cannot be totally separated from giving them good service.

 

In your work aren't people who do a better job rewarded for their efforts:  either commissions for people in sales, bonuses, raises related to performance, promotions related to performance, etc.?

 

Even if every staff member on board ship got $50.00 per hour, wouldn't some incentive be indicated for those who went above the minimum effort level?

 

Of course, you might not be able to observe -- the fares necessary to give everyone enough so they would not have to show any particular effort could make cruising unaffordable to you.

Yes, those employees that are the best performers should be compensated more - by their employers.

[navybankerteacher]

30 minutes ago, Sea42 said:

Yes, those employees that are the best performers should be compensated more - by their employers.

But the people who are best qualified to determine performance of personal service are the recipients of that personal service  — not the bean counters back in the home office.

[iancal]

1 hour ago, Sea42 said:

Yes, those employees that are the best performers should be compensated more - by their employers.

That is the stuff of fairly tales in the cruise line service industry.  There is a reason why cruise lines are incorporated in offshore countries and hire foreign workers. 

 

It is called low wages, long hours, and no pesky labor legislation or unions to deal with.

 

We tip extra, in cash, for good service.

 

We are now doing it in restaurants at home because there are some employers who do no pass on tips that are added to credit card bill payments.

 

We want the person who is serving us well to get the entire benefit our gratuity.  And at the time they provide the service.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by iancal

[ldubs]

8 hours ago, Billish said:

Which is what various UK lines do (Saga, P&O,  Marella etc) although gratuuties are not exactly "outlawed".

Nice not to have all the angst that so many American cruisers have about who to tip, when to tip, how much to tip etc. 

 

Actually very few of us Americans worry about the who, when, or where.  It is what we do and we are very used to it.  At home, while dining out, cash can be left on table. The OP's original question  was if that was OK to do the same in a cruise ship MDR.  I think it was probably answered in the first couple replies.   But of course this subject always brings out a lot of tangential discussion.