Gratuities, does the employees actually get them?

[mafig]

9 minutes ago, mafig said:

I have personally seen photos of papers hanging in crew areas of listing of  rooms that have gratuities removed.    This has been posted a couple of times (and quickly removed by CC) by folks who have taken behind the scenes tours.  This has never been denied by the cruise lines however they say that if was for the prior week and not the current one.  Believe what you will.  I think the wait staff knows who removed tips/gratuities/ service charges ...whatever you call it.

 

 

 

[mafig]

5 minutes ago, MoCruiseFan said:

 

The bottom line is that it is none of the passengers' business how the NCL employees are compensated.  Further it is quite rude and tacky to inquire of someone how much they make and where it comes from.  How much the NCL employees are compensated for the work they do is between them and NCL.  As long as they agree to whatever their contract grants them then let them work as they please.

I agree.  Very tacky and rude to ask someone's salary.  🤢

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, PATRLR said:

Really?  They know exactly who waited on each table and how many guests were at the table.  A very simple SQL query would tell them how many people a waiter served each day/cruise/month/whatever.  

But I think the point is that NCL would have you believe that a portion of the DSC goes to the waiters.  Assuming the same number of waiters from one cruise to the next it seems reasonable to assume that more guests would mean more money from the DSC going to the waiters.

I'd love to see something to support this claim.

So if I leave the DSC and give cash, they keep the cash?  But if I remove the DSC they turn the cash in?  Seems like a really loose system relying on some honor system to turn in some cash but not other cash?

 

I rather doubt NCL would go to the trouble of tracking which guests dine at which table and which waiters serve that table.

 

I've seen numerous posts detailing  how the crew is to turn in cash from those who've removed the gratutities.  I've heard the crew has to turn in all tips.  After the guests have left the ship, perhaps a day or two later, the cruise line returns the cash from those who did not remove the gratuities.

 

They may rely upon the honor system but one must remember that the crew knows who's keeping cash and it is in their interest to turn in those who cheat the system which could easily result in termination. I've heard that if terminated, the cruise line doesn't pay your return ticket.

Edited November 20, 2022 by RocketMan275

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, MikeACY said:

This is what we were thinking..the cruise line gets to keep it and uses it to help pay the salaries. Again I'm not trying to cause trouble about tipping...i just want to make sure the waiters/room steward, etc gets to keep the extra money. Perhaps the "old system" of handing out envelopes to the waiter/room steward was better. Since I didn't pre pay, my account showed a "Service charge" every day. 

I will make my one and only post to a tip thread, I'll state this based on my years with NCL, and will not argue it with anyone.

 

The crew sign an employment contract that defines their total monthly compensation.  For quite a lot of crew (most front of house, and some hotel back of house), this total compensation is outlined as so much "base salary" and so much from "DSC contributions".  The amount of "DSC" is noted in the contract as being "variable" depending on the contributions by the passengers (i.e. how many reduce or remove the DSC).  There is also a statutory minimum salary listed, and typically the base salary is less than the minimum salary.  Therefore, unless the amount of removed DSC brings the crew's salary below the minimum, the cruise line does not have to make up the difference.  The line is only required to make up enough that the crew receives the minimum amount.

 

The amount of "DSC contribution" contracted to crew is based on the historical occupancy (typically 105%), so occupancy below that will reduce the crew's total compensation.

 

The cruise line will also keep a percentage of the DSC (most frequently the amount from occupancy above the norm) for a "crew welfare" fund that is used to purchase things the crew want in their lounges, and to pay for various holiday crew parties.   The cruise line does not "keep" any of the DSC money, which is why they are allowed to charge it as a separate item, it is a "pass through" expense from their revenue.

[fshagan]

Edited this because chengkp75 is a definitive source, and I've never had reason to doubt what he says. My conjecture was slightly different, so I'll let his stand. It makes sense that the service charges would be a line item on their paycheck that can vary; I actually had a job with profit sharing where this was the case.

 

You can look up and verify that NCL has ships with ITF contracts at the union's website. Search for "NORWEGIAN" and you'll see the NCL ships listed.

 

Otherwise I'll defer to chengkp75 as the expert in this matter.

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by fshagan
Definitive info from chengkp75

[chengkp75]

Because it's you, I will make a second post here.

 

9 minutes ago, fshagan said:

There was a time when it was stated that tips given directly to crew members comprised most of their income, and their base salary was the famed "$50 a month". That is no longer true for most cruise lines (if it was ever true).

This was true, but with the advent of the statutory minimum wage, the base salary has been increased.

 

10 minutes ago, fshagan said:

Most cruise lines have contracts with the seafarer's union that guarantees them a minimum wage and overtime. You can look up and see that NORWEGIAN has their ships listed on the union's website. This means the employees are paid according to the agreement with the union. This is fact and not conjecture. I have read that the agreement is a contract between the captain and the seafarer, that is signed by both, and can vary from the minimums listed in the general info on the ITF site. (This is what I've been told, but haven't been able to verify).

And if you look at the ISF site you link, you will see that NCL ships are listed as "having an ISF compliant" contract.  The ISF agrees to the Maritime Labor Convention, which lists the statutory minimum wage for any seafarer as $675/month.  While I agree with your figures from "glassdoor", as I've stated, if the amount of DSC removed still leaves the crew receiving more than $675, then the company does not need to make up the balance to the "contracted" $1200/month.  This is specified in the crew contract.  As I've said, the contract specifies that the DSC contribution amount can be variable.

 

18 minutes ago, fshagan said:

I don't believe the seafarer's see their weekly check go up and down by the amount of service charges collected by the ship.

The crew do not get paid weekly.  When I was there, it was monthly, it may be twice monthly now, not sure.  The amount of DSC reduction is noted weekly at the weekly ship's management meeting, and is a large topic.  The amount of DSC is collected for the entire pay period (2 week or 4 week), and then the crew compensation is adjusted accordingly.

[SeaShark]

2 hours ago, PATRLR said:

Of course it matters.  The fact that the fine print says it's a service charge doesn't override the fact that the marketing says gratuities.

It isn't fine print....that's a lame argument and you're better than that. Still...what marketing and some TAs call it has no bearing on what is is and how it's distributed.

 

[BirdTravels]

6 hours ago, MikeACY said:

At dinner we had a very friendly waiter and we started chatting. He mentioned that on this cruise there were 3000 passengers, next week there would be 3200 and the week after 4000. I ask him "That would be a good thing right?" He said he would be very busy. So I asked (i probably shouldn't, but he was very friendly) isn’t your salary depending on the amount of people on board? We all either pre-pay the gratuities or are charged daily. Therefore it makes sense the more people the more gratuities given to the staff. He shocked us by saying NO. He said his salary is fixed.

Now IF this is true, then wouldn’t it be best for us to take some gratuities off our bill and just hand them cash to make sure they get the additional funds?

I know this is a sensitive topic. Notice I didn’t say  NOT pay them gratuities. Just want to make sure they receive them. I don't think he misunderstood me. The others in our group did ask him again after his reply to make sure he understood. Maybe it is just NCL cruise line? 

So, remember that a portion of the daily service charge goes to bring the crewmember salary up to their contract value. And are not "tips" above and beyond. 

 

Just like my home town. The minimum wage here is $15/hour. But, if you are an employee that earns tips, an employer can pay as little as $5/hour. The first $10/hour (that's per hour) of "tips" goes to getting you up to minimum wage. If you work a 6 hour shift, the first $60 goes to just getting you up to minimum wage. And for our local diner, that's hard because most folks leave lose change for the tip. 

[phillygwm]

2 hours ago, mafig said:

I agree.  Very tacky and rude to ask someone's salary.  🤢

I would generally agree but this isn't about asking someone their salary, at least not directly.  If you asked me what I make, I'd be offended.  If you asked me how my salary is comprised, I'd probably answer you.

 

In this case, while I've never asked, I'm interested because it would affect whether I choose to tip certain crew.  Setting DSC aside, which @chengkp75has definitively addressed, if I give $100 to my steward, or slipped cash when I received the check at dinner, I want to know whether the individual I gave it to actually retained it.  To better illustrate the point, if they were mandated to turn all non-DSC tips over to NCL, and that was to go directly to their bottom line (and I'm not implying that's the case at all) maybe I'd try to find a way around it, like a gift card for Walmart or whatever -- I'm sure the preferred currency would be a topic of discussion on here -- but I certainly wouldn't tip cash anymore.

 

For me, at least, that's the only source of my curiosity.  I really don't care how much the crew makes; they accepted the contract so presumably considered it a fair deal.

Edited November 21, 2022 by phillygwm

[destar]

Is it just me, or is everything spinning around?

[New2cruise2022]

I’ve read multiple threads on this topic and end up staring at it and thinking it shouldn’t be this difficult, but it is. 
 

America is a tipping society. Out in the wild, it works pretty well. Each person has their own philosophy. 15% is the basement unless service is extraordinarily bad. 20% is the norm, etc. (This is merely an example.)

 

But get in a vacuum like an all-inclusive resort or a cruise and all hell breaks loose. And I get it. You have imposed fees, service charges, gratuities, etc. Some guests are Americans and are accustom to the quid pro quo nature of tipping. Others are European and might be accustomed to something different. 
 

I don’t think I get to the end of any of these threads without shrugging my shoulders and being more confused than I was before I embarked on the journey through opinion and fact. But it is easy for me to lean to a world where I would be inclined to have the DSC removed and use ALL of that money to tip throughout the week in the hands of the people that provide tremendous service. 

[TrumpyNor]

18 hours ago, MikeACY said:

At dinner we had a very friendly waiter and we started chatting. He mentioned that on this cruise there were 3000 passengers, next week there would be 3200 and the week after 4000. I ask him "That would be a good thing right?" He said he would be very busy. So I asked (i probably shouldn't, but he was very friendly) isn’t your salary depending on the amount of people on board? We all either pre-pay the gratuities or are charged daily. Therefore it makes sense the more people the more gratuities given to the staff. He shocked us by saying NO. He said his salary is fixed.

Now IF this is true, then wouldn’t it be best for us to take some gratuities off our bill and just hand them cash to make sure they get the additional funds?

I know this is a sensitive topic. Notice I didn’t say  NOT pay them gratuities. Just want to make sure they receive them. I don't think he misunderstood me. The others in our group did ask him again after his reply to make sure he understood. Maybe it is just NCL cruise line? 

I used to work on a cruiseship when I was young (late 1990ies) on one of the luxury lines, salary was fixed (at that time around $700) and then after each cruise we received a certain amount of tip depending on how many passengers on board (the recommended amount of tip per passenger - equivalent to NCL's "daily service charge"- I believe it was $10 back then) ) was divided in a very specific way (this was when you as passenger had the same waiter for breakfast, lunch and dinner) - 35% went to the room stewards, 35% went to  restaurant staff, and the rest was divided amongst other employees - I beleive the total  was divided in to four, but I don't remember how the last 30% was divided/amongst whom.

 

This was automatically added to our onboard account at the end of each cruise. And then any cash tip came on top of that.

 

I am pretty certain that it is similar on NCL and most other cruise lines, and that the waiter you asked must have misunderstood your question somehow....

Edited November 21, 2022 by TrumpyNor

[MoCruiseFan]

20 hours ago, PATRLR said:

Unfortunately both NCL and the major travel agents refer to the DSC as gratuities and NCL would have you believe they are treated like gratuities in so much as a portion goes to the servers and stewards and back of the house staff.

 

NCL has never had me believe that the DSC is 'treated like gratuities".  Then again I do not make assumptions based on other peoples' opinions and conjectures,

[PATRLR]

29 minutes ago, MoCruiseFan said:

 

NCL has never had me believe that the DSC is 'treated like gratuities".  Then again I do not make assumptions based on other peoples' opinions and conjectures,

Good for you.  

Not everyone has understood it the same way, the base note to this string being typical of such people.

[fshagan]

20 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Because it's you, I will make a second post here.

 

Thanks! I edited my post when I saw yours - we were posting at almost exactly the same time. As a former NCL employee with personal knowledge on this I defer to you!

Edited November 21, 2022 by fshagan

[MSUjohn]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:04 PM, MoCruiseFan said:

The bottom line is that it is none of the passengers' business how the NCL employees are compensated.  ***********************  How much the NCL employees are compensated for the work they do is between them and NCL.

yes, it can be the passenger's business, because they are ultimately ponying up the cash, thus they are the primary driver of the exchange.

same goes for basic workplace saftey.

 

 

 

[SeaShark]

16 minutes ago, MSUjohn said:

yes, it can be the passenger's business, because they are ultimately ponying up the cash, thus they are the primary driver of the exchange.

same goes for basic workplace saftey.

 

 

This would be more believable if passengers were just as interested in how their, fare, port fees, taxes, shop purchases, casino losses, shore excursion purchases, photo purchases, etc as much as they seem to be about where the gratuity goes.

 

Ultimately, this topic is nothing more than people trying to apply spin so that they can justify NOT paying their service charge.

[Goldconnection]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:51 PM, www3traveler said:

EXACTLY   Every crew member gets a "Base" Salary.  Many get gratuties added to it.  It is recorded on their payroll statement which many to not know how to read.  A good many have their salaries direct deposited which confusing them further.

WOW…How do you know many of these people can not read or are confused with direct deposit? Are you saying they are illiterate?

[Goldconnection]

On 11/20/2022 at 5:27 PM, chengkp75 said:

I will make my one and only post to a tip thread, I'll state this based on my years with NCL, and will not argue it with anyone.

 

The crew sign an employment contract that defines their total monthly compensation.  For quite a lot of crew (most front of house, and some hotel back of house), this total compensation is outlined as so much "base salary" and so much from "DSC contributions".  The amount of "DSC" is noted in the contract as being "variable" depending on the contributions by the passengers (i.e. how many reduce or remove the DSC).  There is also a statutory minimum salary listed, and typically the base salary is less than the minimum salary.  Therefore, unless the amount of removed DSC brings the crew's salary below the minimum, the cruise line does not have to make up the difference.  The line is only required to make up enough that the crew receives the minimum amount.

 

The amount of "DSC contribution" contracted to crew is based on the historical occupancy (typically 105%), so occupancy below that will reduce the crew's total compensation.

 

The cruise line will also keep a percentage of the DSC (most frequently the amount from occupancy above the norm) for a "crew welfare" fund that is used to purchase things the crew want in their lounges, and to pay for various holiday crew parties.   The cruise line does not "keep" any of the DSC money, which is why they are allowed to charge it as a separate item, it is a "pass through" expense from their revenue.

Enough said and well stated. 🤜🏽🎤 Thank you!

[PATRLR]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:27 PM, chengkp75 said:

I will make my one and only post to a tip thread, I'll state this based on my years with NCL, and will not argue it with anyone.

@chengkp75I truly appreciate in your input to these discussions, thank you.  I know you said this would be your one post, I am hoping you might indulge one more question which I think can be answered as fact, and a second that might be more your experience.

 

1. Before NCL implemented the DSC format, crew such as stewards and waiters made $X which was a salary from NCL and gratuities (the envelopes at the end of the cruise with a cruise line recommended gratuity per day, per passenger) from passengers.   After implementation of DSC, that same crew made $Y which as you stated was "base salary" + "DSC contributions".   My question is, assuming that historical occupancy of 105% and assuming all passengers paid their recommended gratuity/DSC, was $X less, equal, or greater than $Y?  My assumption is "equal" at the time of the switchover.

2. Do you have firsthand knowledge of crew's opinions of the DSC method versus the old "envelope" method?  Do they like/prefer the new or the old systems?

[chengkp75]

Since this has not degenerated into a tip/no tip argument, I'll answer this.

 

I only worked at NCL when the DSC system was in place, and things have changed dramatically for the crew with the implementation of the Maritime Labor Convention, but I know that the "base salary" under the old "cash tipping" system was about $50/month.  Been away for a time, so not sure of current contracts, but base salary is now around $400/month.  I think the crew are better off in the new system, though a lot of that is due to statutory regulations these days.

 

The crew prefer the new DSC, as their salaries are more stable, but they don't like the "team building" aspects, which is really why the cruise line uses the DSC.  By making everyone in the pool responsible for ensuring that all DSC is paid (through good service), the cruise lines remove the need for good first line supervisory training, and force the team building to be done by the team itself.  And, when this fails, and DSC is removed, the cruise line can tell the crew, "well, it wasn't us that cut your salary, it was the passengers".  I detest the DSC system, and feel the crew should be paid hourly, flat rate plus overtime.

[www3traveler]

1 hour ago, Goldconnection said:

WOW…How do you know many of these people can not read or are confused with direct deposit? Are you saying they are illiterate?

Crew members come from all over the world.  Some speak and understand English better than others.

 

Do you remember the 1st time you ever got a payroll slip?  Did you know what it said?  Codes for payroll deductions can be very confusing.  Most young people I know multiply the number of hours they have worked by whatever their pay rate is and think that what they will get-- it isn't.  Same thing with crew.  

 

For many direct deposit is new-- some countries still do not have it.  So crew gets paid and has to wire money home.

 

[www3traveler]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Since this has not degenerated into a tip/no tip argument, I'll answer this.

 

I only worked at NCL when the DSC system was in place, and things have changed dramatically for the crew with the implementation of the Maritime Labor Convention, but I know that the "base salary" under the old "cash tipping" system was about $50/month.  Been away for a time, so not sure of current contracts, but base salary is now around $400/month.  I think the crew are better off in the new system, though a lot of that is due to statutory regulations these days.

 

The crew prefer the new DSC, as their salaries are more stable, but they don't like the "team building" aspects, which is really why the cruise line uses the DSC.  By making everyone in the pool responsible for ensuring that all DSC is paid (through good service), the cruise lines remove the need for good first line supervisory training, and force the team building to be done by the team itself.  And, when this fails, and DSC is removed, the cruise line can tell the crew, "well, it wasn't us that cut your salary, it was the passengers".  I detest the DSC system, and feel the crew should be paid hourly, flat rate plus overtime.

I agree with you

[PATRLR]

30 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Since this has not degenerated into a tip/no tip argument, I'll answer this.

 

I only worked at NCL when the DSC system was in place, and things have changed dramatically for the crew with the implementation of the Maritime Labor Convention, but I know that the "base salary" under the old "cash tipping" system was about $50/month.  Been away for a time, so not sure of current contracts, but base salary is now around $400/month.  I think the crew are better off in the new system, though a lot of that is due to statutory regulations these days.

 

The crew prefer the new DSC, as their salaries are more stable, but they don't like the "team building" aspects, which is really why the cruise line uses the DSC.  By making everyone in the pool responsible for ensuring that all DSC is paid (through good service), the cruise lines remove the need for good first line supervisory training, and force the team building to be done by the team itself.  And, when this fails, and DSC is removed, the cruise line can tell the crew, "well, it wasn't us that cut your salary, it was the passengers".  I detest the DSC system, and feel the crew should be paid hourly, flat rate plus overtime.

Thank you and I also agree it would be best if the crew were paid a reasonable rate that didn't rely on tips.

Edited November 22, 2022 by PATRLR

[PATRLR]

After reading some excellent input in this thread, my gut sense is that those who used to get the envelopes are now getting an equivalent pay by way of their cut of DSC.  From my point of view as the passenger, the DSC replaces the envelope with the "recommended" tip.  With the envelope system, I tipped more than the "recommended" amount if I felt the crew member provided above and beyond the expected level of service.  Same thing today, but only that "extra" portion is handed to the crew member. 

Effectively, DSC = Weekly Gratuities.  This is something most everyone knows but for some reason causes others to get their britches in a bunch.

Edited November 22, 2022 by PATRLR