FOR YOUR 2023 CRUISING DOLLAR, DOES X MARK THE SPOT?

[gofloat]

The last cruise I booked was on Azamara. We have one Celebrity cruise booked for 2023 but after taking a Christmas cruise on Azamara I can see that Celebrity has gone downhill and up in price. Azamara had interesting speakers, great food and wine, and very talented entertainment (although a smaller venue than Celebrity). This is all for an all inclusive price and includes laundry facilities and a small ship personalized atmosphere. Celebrity has changed its focus and does not seem to want to appeal to seasoned travelers. They are constantly trying to sell art, jewelry and alcohol and show no interest in the ports. It looks like we are making a switch in loyalty.

[LGW59]

7 minutes ago, gofloat said:

The last cruise I booked was on Azamara. We have one Celebrity cruise booked for 2023 but after taking a Christmas cruise on Azamara I can see that Celebrity has gone downhill and up in price. Azamara had interesting speakers, great food and wine, and very talented entertainment (although a smaller venue than Celebrity). This is all for an all inclusive price and includes laundry facilities and a small ship personalized atmosphere. Celebrity has changed its focus and does not seem to want to appeal to seasoned travelers. They are constantly trying to sell art, jewelry and alcohol and show no interest in the ports. It looks like we are making a switch in loyalty.

Nothing says luxury like do it yourself laundry facilities 🤔

[scaught]

I've done ~10 on RCCL, 1 on Carnival mixed in there, and most recently 2 on Virgin. I thoroughly enjoyed the VV cruises, wanted another cruise, but wanted a different boat to explore. Beyond looks beautiful so I want to give it a try. It will be nice to have a drink package again. I will appreciate the "no smoking in the casino" policy. I guess we'll see if it hits the spot, but they already have my monies lol. 

[LGW59]

1 minute ago, scaught said:

I've done ~10 on RCCL, 1 on Carnival mixed in there, and most recently 2 on Virgin. I thoroughly enjoyed the VV cruises, wanted another cruise, but wanted a different boat to explore. Beyond looks beautiful so I want to give it a try. It will be nice to have a drink package again. I will appreciate the "no smoking in the casino" policy. I guess we'll see if it hits the spot, but they already have my monies lol. 

From what I understand, Beyond, is a larger version, with some added tweaks, of the Edge, which I was on for a TA this fall.  Everything about the Edge was fantastic, food, service, entertainment, enrichment speaker(s) though there was one primary guy and he was great, I attended almost all of his lectures and thoroughly enjoyed.  Hope you have a wonderful, cruise!  

[D C]

I was curious as to where X fell in the broad scheme of things relative to other lines, so I did a little searching on a popular vacation booking site.  I pulled up ALL cruise lines for a 7n Caribbean sailing from Jan-Mar '24.  Over 900 total hits. No sorting for itineraries or anything else.  Just an "our starting price" look at things.   

 

 

 

Regular balconies are skewed by the luxury lines being all suites, and this site didn't differentiate.  But they should otherwise be comparable as the lowest price, perk-free, probably lifeboat-view balconies for the other lines.

 

Suites should be a more comparable comparison.  This makes me wonder why more people don't sail on the other lines for the relatively small difference. 

 

TLDR: Celebrity is the most expensive non-luxury line with the exception of Disney.  

[Oceangoer2]

22 minutes ago, D C said:

I was curious as to where X fell in the broad scheme of things relative to other lines, so I did a little searching on a popular vacation booking site.  I pulled up ALL cruise lines for a 7n Caribbean sailing from Jan-Mar '24.  Over 900 total hits. No sorting for itineraries or anything else.  Just an "our starting price" look at things.   

 

 

 

Regular balconies are skewed by the luxury lines being all suites, and this site didn't differentiate.  But they should otherwise be comparable as the lowest price, perk-free, probably lifeboat-view balconies for the other lines.

 

Suites should be a more comparable comparison.  This makes me wonder why more people don't sail on the other lines for the relatively small difference. 

 

TLDR: Celebrity is the most expensive non-luxury line with the exception of Disney.  

Thanks for the graph...great job and quite telling.

[D C]

btw, those were the AVERAGE price tables.

 

Here are the MEDIAN prices (without resorting the order). Even less favourable for X.

 

 

[Spif Barwunkel]

That is some very thorough work with some very interesting results and could easily fit in to similar thread discussions on other forums. Thank you, D C, for including your findings on this thread.

[montythecat]

I agree. DC’s two posts with graphs are very illuminating. I didn’t work as hard when looking at

comparisons between X and HAL but I am pleased to see that they confirm my much less

detailed conclusions. In trying to extend my pension and savings as far as possible into my

future DC’s efforts do help me with that task. Thank you.

 

[NMTraveller]

19 hours ago, D C said:

btw, those were the AVERAGE price tables.

 

Here are the MEDIAN prices (without resorting the order). Even less favourable for X.

 

 

What this chart is missing is splitting X into S and E class fares.  At that point Oceania beats out E class in many cases.

[Hlitner]

We stopped cruising on X, shortly after LLP took over the helm and started her campaign of a "death by a thousand cut-backs" coupled with big price increases (especially in suites).  Since we have long cruised on many different lines this was an easy shift even though we sometimes cruise over 100 days a year.  We found ourselves loving MSC's Yacht Club which is far less costly than X Retreat suites and offers a far higher quality of service without annoying add-ons.  In the past 18 months we have cruised (6 cruises) on Seabourn for far less (price wise) than the lowest cost Retreat cabins on X.  On Seabourn there is no such thing as room service fees (X is now going to $11.75 per order), no charges for the mini bar drinks (restocked daily) or just about anything else.  On Seabourn we can cruise for weeks and have an onboard account of Zero!  Even on MSC, with the exception of the usual auto tips we can also cruise for weeks without any additional charges.  

 

While X is a terrific cruise line, for those of us who happily cruise on multiple lines we still do not see X as cost competitive in terms of overall value.  During our more than 50 years of cruising we have watched cruise lines go through many changes in pricing and fees.  But in the final analysis a large cruise line (such as X) needs to fill their berths.  An empty berth is "opportunity lost revenue" that can never be recovered.  In the past this has led to interesting price strategies including special promotions and amazing last-minute deals (usually handled quietly through a few high-volume cruise agencies).  We will watch the near future with lots of interest :).  Consider that a new small ship luxury cruise line, Explora Journeys, is charging about $500- $600 per person/day for an all-inclusive luxury line.  MSC charges about $500 per person day for their luxurious Yacht Club!   Go figure.

 

Hank

[Cruise Junky]

No. All land trips. 2 x Hawaii, 2 x BC Wine Country, 1 x Washington State Wine Country and 1 x Cannon Beach, Oregon Coast.  

[paulh84]

21 hours ago, D C said:

I was curious as to where X fell in the broad scheme of things relative to other lines, so I did a little searching on a popular vacation booking site.  I pulled up ALL cruise lines for a 7n Caribbean sailing from Jan-Mar '24.  Over 900 total hits. No sorting for itineraries or anything else.  Just an "our starting price" look at things.   

 

 

 

Regular balconies are skewed by the luxury lines being all suites, and this site didn't differentiate.  But they should otherwise be comparable as the lowest price, perk-free, probably lifeboat-view balconies for the other lines.

 

 

Suites should be a more comparable comparison.  This makes me wonder why more people don't sail on the other lines for the relatively small difference. 

 

TLDR: Celebrity is the most expensive non-luxury line with the exception of Disney.  

 

This is heavily skewed. MSC, Norwegian and even RCL to some degree offer a "suite" category that does not fit within their ship within a ship concept.  MSC has suites outside of Yacht Club, Royal has Junior Suites that are really not a suite and Norwegian has suites outside of the Haven. I don't know much about Princess suites but aside from a few specific upper categories they aren't a like comparison to Retreat/Haven/Yacht Club. I would expect they are priced much lower. MSC also has an interior Yacht Club that skews their price. 

 

If you price actual like-for-like suite categories across Celebrity, NCL and MSC, they are all similarly priced, particularly at the entry level categories with MSC being the usual lowest of the three. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by paulh84

[D C]

1 hour ago, paulh84 said:

 

This is heavily skewed. MSC, Norwegian and even RCL to some degree offer a "suite" category that does not fit within their ship within a ship concept.  MSC has suites outside of Yacht Club, Royal has Junior Suites that are really not a suite and Norwegian has suites outside of the Haven. I don't know much about Princess suites but aside from a few specific upper categories they aren't a like comparison to Retreat/Haven/Yacht Club. I would expect they are priced much lower. MSC also has an interior Yacht Club that skews their price. 

 

If you price actual like-for-like suite categories across Celebrity, NCL and MSC, they are all similarly priced, particularly at the entry level categories with MSC being the usual lowest of the three. 

It's not skewed unless you're looking for something that isn't there.  It's purely an "our starting price" for the suite category.  Nothing more, nothing less. 
As far as balconies go, of course there are inherent differences between them. One might be obstructed, have a chair vs a couch, bigger vs smaller balcony, etc...   
The key takeaway is that in both broad categories, Celebrity is positioning themselves towards actual luxury lines and not among their competitors. 

[paulh84]

25 minutes ago, D C said:

It's not skewed unless you're looking for something that isn't there.  It's purely an "our starting price" for the suite category.  Nothing more, nothing less. 
As far as balconies go, of course there are inherent differences between them. One might be obstructed, have a chair vs a couch, bigger vs smaller balcony, etc...   
The key takeaway is that in both broad categories, Celebrity is positioning themselves towards actual luxury lines and not among their competitors. 

 

It's very skewed. "Suite category" is far too broad. I don't think many people would consider an ocean view aurea 'suite' on MSC Davina with zero inclusions similar to even a Sky Suite on Beyond. MSC does call it a suite, but that's where the similarities end. Those are two very different things. 

[D C]

1 hour ago, paulh84 said:

 

It's very skewed. "Suite category" is far too broad. I don't think many people would consider an ocean view aurea 'suite' on MSC Davina with zero inclusions similar to even a Sky Suite on Beyond. MSC does call it a suite, but that's where the similarities end. Those are two very different things. 

You can look at it however you wish.  As stated, this is the "starting price" look at a category. Plenty people will compare the entry price of suites, decide to book the cheaper option, tell other people people they stayed in a suite while saying it was cheaper than some other suite.  Nothing incorrect about any of that.  Likewise, they can look at the entry price of a Celebrity suite and conclude that it's not that much more to book a suite on an actual luxury line.  Also very correct. 

 

Just like, "How much is a new vehicle?"   

Well, the Chevy Silverado starts at $38k, and the Corvette starts at $65k.  

Yup, a Silverado can be had for a bit more than half the price of a Corvette.  If you want more detail than that, you'll have to build and price your own.  

 

And frankly, it's on Celebrity if they're advertising starting prices that are uncompetitive.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by D C

[Hlitner]

4 hours ago, paulh84 said:

 

It's very skewed. "Suite category" is far too broad. I don't think many people would consider an ocean view aurea 'suite' on MSC Davina with zero inclusions similar to even a Sky Suite on Beyond. MSC does call it a suite, but that's where the similarities end. Those are two very different things. 

We often advise folks to break down cruise cost to the cost per person/day and do it using the cost of all the amenities you would normally buy.  So, for example, if cruising on Seabourn (or most luxury lines) you should consider that they are true all-inclusive (except for shore excursions).  One should also compare the space ratios of ships (tonnage divided by number of passengers).  So, while X is usually in the low 40s (tons per person) a line like Seabourn is in the 70s.   Many folks do not understand that when cruising on luxury lines or even on some "ship within a ship" schemes that there will be no lines!  You want to eat, you just go to the dedicated dining room or buffet.  Need to talk to Guest Services, you just stop at the Concierge Desk (hardly ever a line).  Want to tender ashore?  Usually no lines, tickets, or waiting.  In MSC's Yacht Club your butler will even escort you down a priority elevator and off the ship.  When you return there is usually a separate entrance (no lines).

 

Over the decades we have cruised on 16 cruise lines ranging from budget to large ships to small luxury ships.  While Celebrity has always been good to us, the line is simply not competitive at the higher categories (Retreat).  We are not being negative about X, but merely stating facts.  When planning future cruises (and we are back up to over 60 days a year) we look at X and they are just not competitive.

 

Hank

[Swampbabe]

Celebrity hits our sweet spot for now. I’ve not found Princess to be cheaper and their balcony cabins are small.

 

We’ve considered Oceania but I don’t think it would be a good fit if their boards are any indication. My tolerance for pretentious boors is quite low.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We often advise folks to break down cruise cost to the cost per person/day and do it using the cost of all the amenities you would normally buy.  So, for example, if cruising on Seabourn (or most luxury lines) you should consider that they are true all-inclusive (except for shore excursions).  One should also compare the space ratios of ships (tonnage divided by number of passengers).  So, while X is usually in the low 40s (tons per person) a line like Seabourn is in the 70s.   Many folks do not understand that when cruising on luxury lines or even on some "ship within a ship" schemes that there will be no lines!  You want to eat, you just go to the dedicated dining room or buffet.  Need to talk to Guest Services, you just stop at the Concierge Desk (hardly ever a line).  Want to tender ashore?  Usually no lines, tickets, or waiting.  In MSC's Yacht Club your butler will even escort you down a priority elevator and off the ship.  When you return there is usually a separate entrance (no lines).

 

Over the decades we have cruised on 16 cruise lines ranging from budget to large ships to small luxury ships.  While Celebrity has always been good to us, the line is simply not competitive at the higher categories (Retreat).  We are not being negative about X, but merely stating facts.  When planning future cruises (and we are back up to over 60 days a year) we look at X and they are just not competitive.

 

Hank

 

Yup.  MSC Yacht Club gets a lot of things right.  No lines, no hassle anywhere.  And their cabins are far superior to a sky suite on Celebrity.  No climbing over some ridiculous tub wall to take a shower.  However, their food is not as good as Celebrity's and the service in the dining room was pretty bad.  Actually, that's being charitable.  It's possible we had the worst waiter on the planet, but on both MSC cruises?  Haven't been back since.  That was more than I could handle.  Our waiter on the second cruise was so bad, we quit going to the dining room and just ordered pizza.  I prefer having more options than pizza for dinner.

[grandgeezer]

18 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

Yup.  MSC Yacht Club gets a lot of things right.  No lines, no hassle anywhere.  And their cabins are far superior to a sky suite on Celebrity.  No climbing over some ridiculous tub wall to take a shower.  However, their food is not as good as Celebrity's and the service in the dining room was pretty bad.  Actually, that's being charitable.  It's possible we had the worst waiter on the planet, but on both MSC cruises?  Haven't been back since.  That was more than I could handle.  Our waiter on the second cruise was so bad, we quit going to the dining room and just ordered pizza.  I prefer having more options than pizza for dinner.

We’ve done two fourteen day cruises on MSC Seaside and our experience in the dining room was just the opposite. We found the food to be equal to, or in some cases better than Celebrity. The waiters were very attentive and made the time very enjoyable. We changed tables about every night, which meant we had several different waiters and they were all excellent. 

[prmssk]

1 minute ago, grandgeezer said:

26 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

Yup.  MSC Yacht Club gets a lot of things right.  No lines, no hassle anywhere.  And their cabins are far superior to a sky suite on Celebrity.  No climbing over some ridiculous tub wall to take a shower.  However, their food is not as good as Celebrity's and the service in the dining room was pretty bad.  Actually, that's being charitable.  It's possible we had the worst waiter on the planet, but on both MSC cruises?  Haven't been back since.  That was more than I could handle.  Our waiter on the second cruise was so bad, we quit going to the dining room and just ordered pizza.  I prefer having more options than pizza for dinner.

Expand  

We’ve done two fourteen day cruises on MSC Seaside and our experience in the dining room was just the opposite. We found the food to be equal to, or in some cases better than Celebrity. The waiters were very attentive and made the time very enjoyable. We changed tables about every night, which meant we had several different waiters and they were all excellent. 

Just in reading reviews (which I do take with a grain of salt), I wonder if the MSC of a couple years ago is not quite the same MSC as today.  They seem to be aggressively trying to take over a larger share of the market, especially in the US, and in the process may be improving their product.  I would not have even considered MSC before the pandemic based on the overwhelming bad reviews I read but based on reviews in the past year or so, we are now booked to try out MSC Yacht Club next year.  I'm really looking forward to seeing how they compare to the Retreat.

[D C]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We often advise folks to break down cruise cost to the cost per person/day and do it using the cost of all the amenities you would normally buy.  So, for example, if cruising on Seabourn (or most luxury lines) you should consider that they are true all-inclusive (except for shore excursions).  One should also compare the space ratios of ships (tonnage divided by number of passengers).  So, while X is usually in the low 40s (tons per person) a line like Seabourn is in the 70s.   Many folks do not understand that when cruising on luxury lines or even on some "ship within a ship" schemes that there will be no lines!  You want to eat, you just go to the dedicated dining room or buffet.  Need to talk to Guest Services, you just stop at the Concierge Desk (hardly ever a line).  Want to tender ashore?  Usually no lines, tickets, or waiting.  In MSC's Yacht Club your butler will even escort you down a priority elevator and off the ship.  When you return there is usually a separate entrance (no lines).

 

Over the decades we have cruised on 16 cruise lines ranging from budget to large ships to small luxury ships.  While Celebrity has always been good to us, the line is simply not competitive at the higher categories (Retreat).  We are not being negative about X, but merely stating facts.  When planning future cruises (and we are back up to over 60 days a year) we look at X and they are just not competitive.

 

Hank

 

Simply put, we are not suite quests.  We don't need or desire the space, the attention of a butler, the private areas, or anything else that comes with it.  For those who are, I do wonder what the Retreat area of X offers over similarly priced smaller luxury lines.  We were berthed next to a small luxury line in Antigua back in November (racking my brain to remember which one) and thought that it looked awesome for whatever it must cost. 

[RichYak]

4 minutes ago, D C said:

I do wonder what the Retreat area of X offers over similarly priced smaller luxury lines.

As do I… as do I

[D C]

7 minutes ago, prmssk said:

Just in reading reviews (which I do take with a grain of salt), I wonder if the MSC of a couple years ago is not quite the same MSC as today.  They seem to be aggressively trying to take over a larger share of the market, especially in the US, and in the process may be improving their product.  I would not have even considered MSC before the pandemic based on the overwhelming bad reviews I read but based on reviews in the past year or so, we are now booked to try out MSC Yacht Club next year.  I'm really looking forward to seeing how they compare to the Retreat.

 

Our only 'experience' with MSC was talking to another couple back in 2019 while on the Summit.  They had sailed on MSC and had concluded that MSC stood for  "My S**tty Cruise".   We haven't considered it based on their review. 

[Hlitner]

3 hours ago, D C said:

 

Simply put, we are not suite quests.  We don't need or desire the space, the attention of a butler, the private areas, or anything else that comes with it.  For those who are, I do wonder what the Retreat area of X offers over similarly priced smaller luxury lines.  We were berthed next to a small luxury line in Antigua back in November (racking my brain to remember which one) and thought that it looked awesome for whatever it must cost. 

There are major differences between being on a small (usually less than 1000) luxury ship and within a "ship within a ship" scenario.  On lines like MSC and NCL, a ship within a ship is truly just that!  On Celebrity, the Retreat suites get folks access to restricted parts of the ship, but it is not a true ship within a ship.  When we cruise on MSC (in the Yacht Club) it is possible to never leave the Yacht Club enclave (protected with electronic doors) for an entire cruise.  The reality is that most of us do leave to go into the other part of the ship in order to take advantage of the many different entertainment venues and some of the alternative restaurants.

 

A small ship luxury line is something special.  Last year, when on the Seabourn Ovation one of our ports was Santorini.  About 10am, DW and I decided to get off the ship and went down to the tender area only to find that we were the only folks.  Others had gone ashore on excursions or were still in bed.  The staff radioed for a tender and within a few minutes we had a large shore-based tender (that could hold several hundred souls) that took the two of us ashore!  Later that day when we returned to the tender pier we boarded another large tender with fewer than a dozen souls (including our Captain).  That is luxury!  On Seabourn, if I am sitting at a bar and decide I want caviar I just mention it to the bar tender who calls for caviar.  Within a few minutes a waiter will appear and put a large platter in front of me with a generous portion of decent caviar and all the fixens.  There is no extra cost for this kind of service.  Order that caviar on X and you would probably pay about $100 (and could only get it at one or two places on the ship).  On Seabourn if you want a glass of Champagne (booze is included) you will generally get real French Champagne (usually Moutard).  If you decide to go to the show there will always be seats.  When I go to breakfast and order fresh squeezed OJ it will appear.  This kind of smaller ship cruising is not for everyone, but it suits us.  Those who want a hairy chest contest, diving for spoons, or music blasting on the pool deck, are not going to be happy on a luxury line.  I will also add that we have never seen backwards ball caps (indoors) or wife beater shirts on a luxury ship.  It is not about a dress code but simply about cruisers that seem to have enough class to understand what is appropriate.  The folks are actually less snobby than many we have met on mass market ships.  We have always been able to make some interesting new friends on the luxury lines...which is not always the case on mass market ships.

 

As to the Retreat suites, it is ideal for those that truly enjoy X, want to enjoy all that X has to offer, and also have a degree of luxury.  And the larger Retreat Suites are often more spectacular than many of the luxury line suites.  For folks that want a 1500 square foot cabin, the mass market line might be a good choice.  There are also some souls who like to feel they are "above" the other souls while on a luxury ship the attitude is that "we are all on the same ship."  Perhaps it is like explaining that some folks want the mansion in a middle-class neighborhood, while others prefer to have the mansion in a neighborhood surrounded by other mansions.

 

As to the comment about "needing the attention" I wonder if the poster understands that for many of us it is not about the Butlers or "attention."  For DW and I it is simply about no lines, better cuisine, excellent service, and not having to be concerned about finding a lounger, seat, etc.  Personally I have a strong dislike of queues and actively practice many queue avoidance techniques.  The idea of waiting in a line at the Lido to get a salad or eggs benedict is not to my taste.  And waiting in a lounge for several hours to get on a tender is just not my scene.

 

Hank