Future of Norway Cruises?

[MAVIP]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:06 PM, cbr663 said:

This is worth the watch of the impact cruise ships can have on small towns:

 

 

Seeing the 1st picture I thought that it had to be Stavanger.....Those castles ruin the whole view (of inhabitants and passengers) of this very very nice part of the town. I once visited on Rotterdam VI and we were (luckily) just behind this part of town, but also behind a huge cruiseship. One of their british pasengers saw us looking in awe and commented that he was very ashamed being a passenger of that ship....

[3rdGenCunarder]

12 hours ago, CurlerRob said:

 

Be cautious booking the new category Z cabins ... 🍺🥌

 

It's a running joke on the Cunard board that those of us not in the Grills cabins/suites are "rowers."

[shippmates]

We always joke since we are not in a suite or above we were sailing in steerage.  We had just as much fun as the suite passengers did.  Am looking for my crossing from NYC including the Fjords in April.

 

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

It's a running joke on the Cunard board that those of us not in the Grills cabins/suites are "rowers."

Funny QM2 tale.  We decided to grab a last minute QM2 TA cruise to get back to NYC from Europe.  At the time, we booked one of the lowest cost inside cabins (on a very low deck) which was less money than flying home Business Class.  We had friends on the ship who were in one of the top grill suites.  A few hours after departing Southampton we ran into a very thick fog and the foghorn began to blast (every 2 minutes).  The fog and drizzle stayed with us nearly the entire way across the "pond" and that loud foghorn sounded every 2 minutes, night and day!  Those in the expensive suites and high category cabins were all on upper decks and had trouble sleeping because of that foghorn.  We, being in our true steerage cabin, heard absolutely nothing.  Our friends in the expensive suite actually teased that they wanted to swap cabins :);

 

Hank

[AncientWanderer]

Also something to think about is that for people who live in far northern places, their summer is very short and very special to them.  Santa Barbara and Key West are year-round resorts, so people living there don't lose as much as those who live in the Norwegian fjords. 

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

Also something to think about is that for people who live in far northern places, their summer is very short and very special to them.  Santa Barbara and Key West are year-round resorts, so people living there don't lose as much as those who live in the Norwegian fjords. 

I think that many conchs (what locals are called in Key West) would disagree.  I was not overly surprised to see the voters support restrictions on cruise ships but was surprised that the three separate referendums carried by such a large margin.  The Florida Legislature and Governor have been trying to bail out the cruise industry by forcing Key West to accept cruise ships whether they want them or not!  One of the piers happens to be privately owned (I think it is the only privately owned cruise pier in the USA) and the owner (who does not live anywhere near KW) has done his best to get politicians to overrule the voters.

 

This does bring out a huge issue that will impact the cruise industry worldwide.  Who ultimately calls the shots on whether to allow cruise ships....the locals, or some absentee government official.  For many years, the debate whether to close Venice, Italy to ships has raged in Italy.  But finally, the locals and some others concerned about the Venice environment have prevailed.  Years ago, we would cruise into Venice on a typical cruise ship with perhaps 1200 passengers and be docked next to a few other similar sized (or even smaller) ships.  But the industry kept building bigger and bigger ships and eventually turned public opinion against the industry.  I predict we will soon see many more communities doing their best to restrict or limit cruise ships.

 

Hank

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

I think that many conchs (what locals are called in Key West) would disagree.  I was not overly surprised to see the voters support restrictions on cruise ships but was surprised that the three separate referendums carried by such a large margin.  The Florida Legislature and Governor have been trying to bail out the cruise industry by forcing Key West to accept cruise ships whether they want them or not!  One of the piers happens to be privately owned (I think it is the only privately owned cruise pier in the USA) and the owner (who does not live anywhere near KW) has done his best to get politicians to overrule the voters.

 

This does bring out a huge issue that will impact the cruise industry worldwide.  Who ultimately calls the shots on whether to allow cruise ships....the locals, or some absentee government official.  For many years, the debate whether to close Venice, Italy to ships has raged in Italy.  But finally, the locals and some others concerned about the Venice environment have prevailed.  Years ago, we would cruise into Venice on a typical cruise ship with perhaps 1200 passengers and be docked next to a few other similar sized (or even smaller) ships.  But the industry kept building bigger and bigger ships and eventually turned public opinion against the industry.  I predict we will soon see many more communities doing their best to restrict or limit cruise ships.

 

Hank

And some think this may be what at least some cruise lines want---the ship is the destination, not the ports.

 

Our first two cruises were on Royal Caribbean, and then they started building the monstrosities of the seas, and we no longer consider them. But I do know people who only cruise with them.

 

[Hlitner]

51 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And some think this may be what at least some cruise lines want---the ship is the destination, not the ports.

 

Our first two cruises were on Royal Caribbean, and then they started building the monstrosities of the seas, and we no longer consider them. But I do know people who only cruise with them.

 

I get it!  Some folks see the ship as the destination and the mega ships work well for those folks.  But the problem is when the 4000+ passenger ships go to smaller ports, around the world, and alienate just about everyone except Diamonds International.  Lines like MSC and RCI have many ships that need to be accommodated at ports that can handle mega-ships.  Most American cruisers do not realize that MSC currently has 22 ships and are building 1-2 more on a yearly basis.  And than we have RCI, Princess, Carnival, and even Celebrity, who continue to build mega ships.  Where are these vessels going to go?  

 

The truth is that the world is now shrinking for the mega ships.  Ports are starting to realize that these ships are not the economic panacea once thought!  Many of the cruisers on these ships are on tight budgets and do not want to spend a lot of money ashore.  It is a problem. 

 

When we were younger we loved RCI (than RCCL).  Our DD was Diamond before age 14.  We would take at least 2 RCI cruises a year, for many years, include annual TA journeys.  When RCI "sold out" to mega ships we stopped cruising the line and have not been on one of their ships for over 20 years!  We moved to Celebrity, but than they started to upsize, boost prices, cut-back everything, and T us off.  So we have not been on that line for over 6 years (we are considering going back for future cruses).  Lately we have been cruising a lot on Seabourn, MSC (Yacht Club), Princess, and HAL (perhaps for the last time).

 

Times change, cruise lines change, and some passengers also change.  Tis the way of the world.

 

Hank

 

 

[AncientWanderer]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I think that many conchs (what locals are called in Key West) would disagree.  I was not overly surprised to see the voters support restrictions on cruise ships but was surprised that the three separate referendums carried by such a large margin.  The Florida Legislature and Governor have been trying to bail out the cruise industry by forcing Key West to accept cruise ships whether they want them or not!  One of the piers happens to be privately owned (I think it is the only privately owned cruise pier in the USA) and the owner (who does not live anywhere near KW) has done his best to get politicians to overrule the voters.

 

This does bring out a huge issue that will impact the cruise industry worldwide.  Who ultimately calls the shots on whether to allow cruise ships....the locals, or some absentee government official.  For many years, the debate whether to close Venice, Italy to ships has raged in Italy.  But finally, the locals and some others concerned about the Venice environment have prevailed.  Years ago, we would cruise into Venice on a typical cruise ship with perhaps 1200 passengers and be docked next to a few other similar sized (or even smaller) ships.  But the industry kept building bigger and bigger ships and eventually turned public opinion against the industry.  I predict we will soon see many more communities doing their best to restrict or limit cruise ships.

 

Hank

Oh, I think they could agree, but still not want cruise ships anyhow.  It isn’t as hard on them as on a Norwegian fjord-dweller.  But that’s not to say they have to want cruise ships in their own backyard either.

[Minoushka]

Because i read 2023 would be last year big ships would be allowed in fjords I booked a btb as of July 2 to do Northern Europe and Norway .I convinced friends to join me .They will for fjords 

i was innNorway when my $ was ok …now its pitiful Scandinavia is very expensive so I.m glad i.m going by ship …years ago coffee was 12$ so who know how much it is now 

i.m looking forward to my cruise hope to enjoy some local food in spite of high cost

[Hlitner]

I do think there will always be some cruise ships that go to most of the Fjords.  But folks must learn how to be flexibile (in terms of cruise lines/ships) and not get stuck on this loyalty thing.  For example, Hurtigruten will always be cruising the Fjords (both large and small ones) and go to places not normally visited by other cruise lines.  Small ship (usually luxury lines) will also be welcomed at many places that reject mega ships, and the growing class of Exploration Ships (many built to Polar 6 standards) will continue to take folks to remote places that are closed to large ships.

 

We often hear cruisers complain that "their cruise line does not go there."  And our fast response is "why don't you simply cruise on another line?"   A great example is Oceania, which has many loyal fans, who does not have the ships to go to places like Antarctica or the far northern polar regions above the arctic circle in Norwegian waters.

 

Hank

[ski ww]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:55 AM, MAVIP said:

Seeing the 1st picture I thought that it had to be Stavanger.....Those castles ruin the whole view (of inhabitants and passengers) of this very very nice part of the town. I once visited on Rotterdam VI and we were (luckily) just behind this part of town, but also behind a huge cruiseship. One of their british pasengers saw us looking in awe and commented that he was very ashamed being a passenger of that ship....

I can see were the locals are coming from. If I lived in those houses by the dock I would not be a happy camper on the days that ships docked in front of my house.

[ontheweb]

14 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I get it!  Some folks see the ship as the destination and the mega ships work well for those folks.  But the problem is when the 4000+ passenger ships go to smaller ports, around the world, and alienate just about everyone except Diamonds International.  Lines like MSC and RCI have many ships that need to be accommodated at ports that can handle mega-ships.  Most American cruisers do not realize that MSC currently has 22 ships and are building 1-2 more on a yearly basis.  And than we have RCI, Princess, Carnival, and even Celebrity, who continue to build mega ships.  Where are these vessels going to go?  

 

The truth is that the world is now shrinking for the mega ships.  Ports are starting to realize that these ships are not the economic panacea once thought!  Many of the cruisers on these ships are on tight budgets and do not want to spend a lot of money ashore.  It is a problem. 

 

When we were younger we loved RCI (than RCCL).  Our DD was Diamond before age 14.  We would take at least 2 RCI cruises a year, for many years, include annual TA journeys.  When RCI "sold out" to mega ships we stopped cruising the line and have not been on one of their ships for over 20 years!  We moved to Celebrity, but than they started to upsize, boost prices, cut-back everything, and T us off.  So we have not been on that line for over 6 years (we are considering going back for future cruses).  Lately we have been cruising a lot on Seabourn, MSC (Yacht Club), Princess, and HAL (perhaps for the last time).

 

Times change, cruise lines change, and some passengers also change.  Tis the way of the world.

 

Hank

 

 

The problem as I see it is there is no middle ground anymore. There are no smaller ships except for the real luxury lines. And the cruise lines are building them larger and larger.

 

Our smallest RCL ship was the Splendour of the Seas, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest NCL ship was the Norwegian Crown, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest Princess shop was the Ocean Princess, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest Carnival ship was the Fascination, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest HAL ship was the Maasdam, no longer in their lineup. Some of these ships are still sailing with other lines.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Just now, ontheweb said:

The problem as I see it is there is no middle ground anymore. There are no smaller ships except for the real luxury lines. And the cruise lines are building them larger and larger.

 

Our smallest RCL ship was the Splendour of the Seas, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest NCL ship was the Norwegian Crown, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest Princess shop was the Ocean Princess, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest Carnival ship was the Fascination, no longer in their lineup. Our smallest HAL ship was the Maasdam, no longer in their lineup. Some of these ships are still sailing with other lines.

 

Maintaining an older ship can be problematic/expensive, but HAL may regret dumping 6 of its 8 small ships. Or maybe Zaandam and Volendam will be enough to handle the restrictive and unusual itineraries. 

[Hlitner]

The issue of smaller ships is simply economics and marketing to folks that want a ship to be a floating resort rather than a ship.  Consider that a 400 passenger Seabourn ship must have a Captain, Staff Captain, First Officer, Chief Engineer.  The largest RCI mega ship also has all those Marine Department positions.  Most cruise ships have a single Hotel Director (who is in charge of everything non-Marine) whether it be a 6000 passenger vessel or a 400 passenger vessel.  The awsome power of "economies of scale" drive many decisions.  

 

So yes, small ships will generally cost more, per passenger day, to operate which ultimately is passed on to the cruiser.  And yes, this means those folks that do most of their traveling via cruise ship will either need to pay more money for varied ports, or accept that their mega ships will be confined to certain ports.  

 

As to HAL, their smallest ship (in recent years) was the Prinsendam (max 800 passengers) which happened to be our favorite HAL vessel.  But HAL can no longer afford to operate their older smaller vessels for a variety of reasons such as finding parts (for older ships), and the economies of scale issue.  And, arguably, HAL has let their quality deteriorate to such a point that the line cannot demand the higher prices necessary to keep those older/smaller vessels.   Another issue with older vessels is that the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) regulations keep being updated which has often forced very expensive renovations to older ships to keep them in compliance.  Many HAL fans want the small ship luxury experience without paying the associated cost.  It "ain't" going to happen.  That is why lines like Oceania and Seabourn have lots of passengers who used to cruise with HAL.

 

Hank

[PACD_JG]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

Many HAL fans want the small ship luxury experience without paying the associated cost.

That pretty much sums up the majority of long-time posters in this forum.  And to tie that into the subject of this thread...because they feel entitled to it.

[JeffElizabeth]

Understand how Norway feels. We were at a small port on the Prinsendam, about 800 passengers and at noon, a MSC ship of 5,000 shows up. They engulfed the small community of 1,000 souls.  We do try to walk the small towns on our own and dine at their restaurants. Enjoy talking with the natives at the non-tourist restaurants.  

[JeffElizabeth]

49 minutes ago, PACD_JG said:

That pretty much sums up the majority of long-time posters in this forum.  And to tie that into the subject of this thread...because they feel entitled to it.

We are willing to pay for the small ship experience so we are booking fewer cruises with Holland.  We still really miss the Prinsendam. We tried the big 2500 man ship to Hawaii last year and didn't enjoy it as much. 

[JeffElizabeth]

Ironic that Norway is all concerned about fossil fuel pollution when they are one of the biggest oil and gas exporters in Europe.  

[Hlitner]

32 minutes ago, JeffElizabeth said:

Ironic that Norway is all concerned about fossil fuel pollution when they are one of the biggest oil and gas exporters in Europe.  

That would be called being smart 🙂  Norway is one of the wealthiest nations in Europe and actually manages to run their government with a surplus.  They also have one of highest standards of living in the world.  So yes, they take advantage of the North Sea oil and gas deposits, most of which are sold to other countries for a nice profit.  I believe they even have a large gas pipeline that runs to the UK.  The gas comes ashore in a pipeline, is processed through filters, and immediately goes back into another pipeline to the UK.  The gas pours out of their country and the cash just pours in!

 

Hank

 

 

[Colorado Klutch]

I honestly don't feel entitled to cruise the Norwegian fjords. If Norway doesn't want me, fine. I'll go somewhere else. If some people want to visit on smaller, luxury ships, cool. But I simply can't afford the smaller, luxury ships. 

I think cruise lines may have gone too far with their newer megaships. Sure, they can pile in many thousands of passengers and offer activities like amusements parks and go cart tracks. While I personally think this is a bit absurd, it appears people like it. But it's these megaships which are really causing problems in ports. 

Airbus overestimated the demand for their two-decker A-380 and stopped building them. Wondering of cruise lines will have to go back to building smaller, more traditional ships if they want to visit anywhere other than the cruise line's private island. And with all the megaship onboard activities, maybe that will be enough. 

[Guest ldtr]

22 minutes ago, Colorado Klutch said:

I honestly don't feel entitled to cruise the Norwegian fjords. If Norway doesn't want me, fine. I'll go somewhere else. If some people want to visit on smaller, luxury ships, cool. But I simply can't afford the smaller, luxury ships. 

I think cruise lines may have gone too far with their newer megaships. Sure, they can pile in many thousands of passengers and offer activities like amusements parks and go cart tracks. While I personally think this is a bit absurd, it appears people like it. But it's these megaships which are really causing problems in ports. 

Airbus overestimated the demand for their two-decker A-380 and stopped building them. Wondering of cruise lines will have to go back to building smaller, more traditional ships if they want to visit anywhere other than the cruise line's private island. And with all the megaship onboard activities, maybe that will be enough. 

The mass market cruise lines do not have much choice.  Either they build larger to pick up the cost efficiencies or they raise prices. More profitable to keep fares down and attract more people.  Prior to Covid the competitive environment limited their ability to raise prices so the builds got larger.  For the next decade new builds will be limited and their competition (land hotels and resorts) have raised prices significantly so prices will go up.  Once things stabilize, the future, if it will be larger ships or higher costs will be determined by both the customer base, as well as the increasing resistance by many ports to the unending increase in the number of cruise ship passengers.  Enough resistance by those ports and cruise might just go back to the higher cost small ship environment it was pre-1970.

[ski ww]

I think there will always be a market for both, those that are happy with the mega ships were the ship is the destination, and those that want the traditional cruise ship experience where the itinerary is more important.   

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, ski ww said:

I think there will always be a market for both, those that are happy with the mega ships were the ship is the destination, and those that want the traditional cruise ship experience where the itinerary is more important.   

Sure, the question is how much will each choice cost.  Small traditional means much higher cost.  

 

Problem is people want small ships to be in the same price range as the mega ships.

[UPNYGuy]

On 2/3/2023 at 11:56 AM, Hlitner said:

Consider a 4000 passenger ship calling at Flam, a town with about 350 residents!  Boggles the mind.

I have been on MSC Preziosa, a 135,000 GRT ship with roughly 3700-4000 pax that called on Flam. It was the ship I took for my Norwegian Fjords cruise. MSC used to send a 180,000 GRT ship there with 5,000 pax.