Has construction on the Pier at Half Moon Cay started yet?

[BermudaBound2014]

2 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

Several comments about cruise lines "owning" islands. I thought they were all long-term leases.

 

 

I think it's a mixed bag of ownership/leasing.

 

Just a quick search, it looks like Half Moon Cay is on a 99 year lease.Fact & Lore of Half Moon Cay: The History | Holland America Line

 

 

NCL origionally leased Great Stirrup Cay from Belcher Oil Company in 1977 but later purchased it in 1986. Great Stirrup Cay, Bahamas: What You Need to Know (2023) (cruisehive.com)

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

4 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

OMGOSH... great memory!! You are absolutely right. When you mentioned "little Norway" it jogged my memory. When they dropped the front metal plate into the water it was game on "stormin' the beach". It was a bit sketchy at best. Cruise lines could Never do that now.

 

Off topic but i found an old artist rendering (since I'm the OP I don't mind lol). The Norway was such a beautiful Ocean Liner.

 

Thanks for the trip down memory lane 🙂

 

Stormin' the beach is right. I believe the tenders were from WWII.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

Stormin' the beach is right. I believe the tenders were from WWII.

I always wondered that because of the way the front metal plate dropped into the water. 
 

You are a wealth of knowledge, thank you 🙂

[Haljo1935]

8 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I think it's a mixed bag of ownership/leasing.

 

Just a quick search, it looks like Half Moon Cay is on a 99 year lease.Fact & Lore of Half Moon Cay: The History | Holland America Line

I didn't finish the entire article, so there may been a sell w/lease back, but this does say HAL purchased the island, which is what we've been told by HAL tram drivers.

[Roger-VW]

In the Carnival Celebration Key construction update December 2024 Weinstein said that process for creation of a pierside berth at Half Moon Cay has started.

[DFWGUYZ]

We questioned the crew living at HMC about this and from what they said 2025 begins construction. The far northeast of the island will be developed with the pier the western side will be developed for Carnival Ships and the eastern (current HMC beach) will be for HAL. From what we heard the island will be split into two sections, western for Carnival and eastern for HAL. That was all the information the crew had to tell. I guess we will see if this comes to fruition. 

[Roger-VW]

With the Opening of the Carnival's new Celebration Key ($500 Million Investment) destination on Grand Bahama Island in 2025, one would think that Carnival Cruise Line ships would stop coming to HMC and Holland America would have HMC to itself. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Roger-VW
Typ

[CNSJ]

On 4/1/2023 at 2:06 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

i found an old artist rendering

Looks like a Lego rendering.

[Honolulu Blue]

4 hours ago, Roger-VW said:

With the Opening of the Carnival's new Celebration Key ($500 Million Investment) destination on Grand Bahama Island in 2025, one would think that Carnival Cruise Line ships would stop coming to HMC and Holland America would have HMC to itself. 

Not likely. Carnival has lots of the ships in the Caribbean year round. Does HAL have any ships there from April to October?

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

On 3/30/2023 at 3:00 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

In the quote above, Weinstein was not referring to Half Moon Cay (although the tenets certainly apply). He was referring to Grand Port which is another project that CCL has undertaken. The questions posed didn't ask Mr. Weinstein when the projects would be complete, but rather how they can impact yield. Obviously cruise lines want to control the ports as much as possible. 

 

Grand Port is just outside of Freeport, and will be "the largest purpose-built cruise port ever built in The Bahamas and one of the largest in the world." CCL is saying this project will be finished in late 2024. There are photos of ground breaking but google Earth does not confirm major construction. Some of you may find this article interesting:

Details of Carnival cruise port project revealed in EIA/EMP document - The Nassau Guardian

 

Grand Port looks to me to be a response directly to RCL's CocoCay. A big ol' family amusement park which is actually becoming quite popular (Costa May, Tanio Bay, Labadee, CocoCay, Ocean Cay, etc..)  It does make sense for cruise lines to be able to capture all the dollars of a port stop.

 

 

 

I can't find any plans for Little San Salvador (Half Moon Cay) other than adding a pier for the purpose of accommodating larger ships and more people on the island in a single day. I'm seeing 80 Million thrown around as the cost. Weinstein definitely said "what we are doing on HMC" as if it is underway, but who knows. These guys are masters at word play.

 

IMO a pier on HMC is sad, but inevitable. I first stopped in Half Moon Cay in the 90's. We all piled into a tender that ran aground on the beach and lowered a ramp into the water. It was impossible to not get wet :). Ironically I was sailing on the NCL Norway at that time so HAL was sharing the island back then. I foresee typical florida 7 day itinerarys stopping in Grand Turk, Grand Port, and Half Moon Cay. All operated by CCL. 

 

Thanks for sharing.

[POA1]

10 hours ago, Honolulu Blue said:

Not likely. Carnival has lots of the ships in the Caribbean year round. Does HAL have any ships there from April to October?

Nope. Twenty-some years ago, when the Zuiderdam launched, she was supposed to be a year round Caribbean ship. She sported a Joe Farcus-designed interior. Farcus was Carnival's chief interior design architect. The ship was quite a departure from HAL's typically classic design.

 

The Zuiderdam sailed 7 day Caribbean itineraries for 4 years until it became pretty obvious that the HAL demographic wasn't wild about warm weather itineraries in summer.

 

A little light reading on the subject:

 

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2022/12/holland-americas-zuiderdam-completes-20-years-in-service/

[BermudaBound2014]

18 hours ago, Honolulu Blue said:

Not likely. Carnival has lots of the ships in the Caribbean year round. Does HAL have any ships there from April to October?

Waiving hello! How about our division championship!

 

 

 

CCL is dumping their money into Celebration Key which will comfortably hold not one, but two, excel ships at a pier. Direction of the company seems pretty clear to me.

 

https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2023/12/celebration-key-carnivals-strategic-500-million-port-investment/

 

 

[CruiserBruce]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:12 AM, DFWGUYZ said:

We questioned the crew living at HMC about this and from what they said 2025 begins construction. The far northeast of the island will be developed with the pier the western side will be developed for Carnival Ships and the eastern (current HMC beach) will be for HAL. From what we heard the island will be split into two sections, western for Carnival and eastern for HAL. That was all the information the crew had to tell. I guess we will see if this comes to fruition. 

Hmmm...the current development and facilities are on the western end of the island.

[DFWGUYZ]

36 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Hmmm...the current development and facilities are on the western end of the island.

My bad...then the opposite 

[Hlitner]

We have heard that the new pier will be ready the same time as the next HAL new build 🙂

 

Hank

[AFNavigator]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:12 PM, DFWGUYZ said:

We questioned the crew living at HMC about this and from what they said 2025 begins construction. The far northeast of the island will be developed with the pier the western side will be developed for Carnival Ships and the eastern (current HMC beach) will be for HAL. From what we heard the island will be split into two sections, western for Carnival and eastern for HAL. That was all the information the crew had to tell. I guess we will see if this comes to fruition. 

It would stand to reason though that there would be a good linkage between the two areas.  That would permit Carnival to use the relatively pristine HMC beach area during the months that HAL doesn't use the island and would permit HAL to dock at the pier (versus tendering) and use transportation to get to the HMC areas.

 

Doing so would allow Carnival to provide--I hate to say it--a Coco Cay-type party/play area to its party crowd and a more laid-back relaxation area to its guest looking to escape the party crowd.  This dual use capability would also probably result in long-needed replacement of HMC's very weather-worn cabanas since Carnival would use them.  HAL use of the pier probably would give HAL passengers more shopping/eating options near the ship for those that are mobility restricted.

 

This could be somewhat of a win-win for both crowds if implemented and managed well.  Remember, cruise lines are in business to make a profit so it is very unlikely that CCL will invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a pier that only Carnival can use.  It is in CCL's best interest to have HAL use the development to its best ability too in order to maximize profit for both Carnival and HAL, both under the CCL umbrella.

[BermudaBound2014]

@AFNavigator carnival is building Celebration Key. That looks to be their response a to Coco Cay. That's not to say that HAL won't open up HMC to other lines under the CCL umbrella to insure it stays occupied year round.

 

https://www.carnival.com/cruise-to/bahamas-cruises/celebration-key-cruises

 

[AFNavigator]

13 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

@AFNavigator carnival is building Celebration Key. That looks to be their response a to Coco Cay. That's not to say that HAL won't open up HMC to other lines under the CCL umbrella to insure it stays occupied year round.

 

https://www.carnival.com/cruise-to/bahamas-cruises/celebration-key-cruises

 

You are absolutely correct about Carnival building Celebration Key.  However, during Carnival's 4th quarter earnings call, Carnival's CEO also discussed they have kicked off development work for a pierside berth at Half Moon Cay. The initial development in 2020 was paused by the pandemic.  Per the attached articles, the pier and other land development at HMC represents an investment of about $80M.  That is in addition to the $500M they are spending to develop Celebration Key.

 

https://www.travelmole.com/news/carnival-starts-development-of-half-moon-cay-pier/

 

https://www.thenassauguardian.com/business/carnival-starts-development-process-for-half-moon-cay-berth/article_545acde0-a495-11ee-841d-03cd7d2b4ae7.html

 

 

[BermudaBound2014]

4 hours ago, AFNavigator said:

You are absolutely correct about Carnival building Celebration Key.  However, during Carnival's 4th quarter earnings call, Carnival's CEO also discussed they have kicked off development work for a pierside berth at Half Moon Cay. The initial development in 2020 was paused by the pandemic.  Per the attached articles, the pier and other land development at HMC represents an investment of about $80M.  That is in addition to the $500M they are spending to develop Celebration Key.

 

https://www.travelmole.com/news/carnival-starts-development-of-half-moon-cay-pier/

 

https://www.thenassauguardian.com/business/carnival-starts-development-process-for-half-moon-cay-berth/article_545acde0-a495-11ee-841d-03cd7d2b4ae7.html

 

 

 

Correct. My point was that in terms of competition; the direct response to Coco Cay is Celebration Key.  I listen to the earnings calls too :). The 80M is the exact same budget they had for HMC prior to Covid. It's just not a big commitment to much improvement besides a pier. 

 

I can't imagine 80M buys a "a Coco Cay-type party/play area".  RCL spent over 200M to add the party/play area and CCL is spending 500M to develop Celebration Key. Maybe 80K gets something far less extravagant;  but that just isn't a lot of money to develop something even remotely close to Celebration Key or HMC. 

 

 

Edited January 12 by BermudaBound2014

[CruiserBruce]

22 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Correct. My point was that in terms of competition; the direct response to Coco Cay is Celebration Key.  I listen to the earnings calls too :). The 80M is the exact same budget they had for HMC prior to Covid. It's just not a big commitment to much improvement besides a pier. 

 

I can't imagine 80M buys a "a Coco Cay-type party/play area".  RCL spent over 200M to add the party/play area and CCL is spending 500M to develop Celebration Key. Maybe 80K gets something far less extravagant;  but that just isn't a lot of money to develop something even remotely close to Celebration Key or HMC. 

 

 

I think the post you quoted means the pier and associated improvements is 80 million dollars. Not a "Coco Cay-type" development.

[BermudaBound2014]

5 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

I think the post you quoted means the pier and associated improvements is 80 million dollars. Not a "Coco Cay-type" development.

 

The conversation between AFnavigator and myself began with me quoting post #41 where @AFNavigator wrote:

 

"It would stand to reason though that there would be a good linkage between the two areas.  That would permit Carnival to use the relatively pristine HMC beach area during the months that HAL doesn't use the island and would permit HAL to dock at the pier (versus tendering) and use transportation to get to the HMC areas.

 

Doing so would allow Carnival to provide--I hate to say it--a Coco Cay-type party/play area to its party crowd and a more laid-back relaxation area to its guest looking to escape the party crowd.  This dual use capability would also probably result in long-needed replacement of HMC's very weather-worn cabanas since Carnival would use them.  HAL use of the pier probably would give HAL passengers more shopping/eating options near the ship for those that are mobility restricted.

 

This could be somewhat of a win-win for both crowds if implemented and managed well.  Remember, cruise lines are in business to make a profit so it is very unlikely that CCL will invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a pier that only Carnival can use.  It is in CCL's best interest to have HAL use the development to its best ability too in order to maximize profit for both Carnival and HAL, both under the CCL umbrella."

 

 

 

Did I miss something? 

[AFNavigator]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

The conversation between AFnavigator and myself began with me quoting post #41 where @AFNavigator wrote:

 

"It would stand to reason though that there would be a good linkage between the two areas.  That would permit Carnival to use the relatively pristine HMC beach area during the months that HAL doesn't use the island and would permit HAL to dock at the pier (versus tendering) and use transportation to get to the HMC areas.

 

Doing so would allow Carnival to provide--I hate to say it--a Coco Cay-type party/play area to its party crowd and a more laid-back relaxation area to its guest looking to escape the party crowd.  This dual use capability would also probably result in long-needed replacement of HMC's very weather-worn cabanas since Carnival would use them.  HAL use of the pier probably would give HAL passengers more shopping/eating options near the ship for those that are mobility restricted.

 

This could be somewhat of a win-win for both crowds if implemented and managed well.  Remember, cruise lines are in business to make a profit so it is very unlikely that CCL will invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a pier that only Carnival can use.  It is in CCL's best interest to have HAL use the development to its best ability too in order to maximize profit for both Carnival and HAL, both under the CCL umbrella."

 

 

 

Did I miss something? 

No, my misunderstanding about you discussing Celebration Key.  I thought you were trying to say Carnival didn't have any plans for HMC.  I apologize for misreading your reply.

 

Now that said, $80M is no small investment.  No, it wouldn't build a mega-resort like Coco Cay or Celebration Key but it would almost certainly cover far more than just a pier.  Granted this goes back some years, but Carnival's investment to develop its Mahagony Bay and Amber Cove ports was $62M and $85M, respectively.  Both locations provide relatively large shopping/eating/drinking areas as well as pretty robust beach development.

 

Even if a HMC pier cost significantly more than the piers at Mahogany Bay and Amber Cove due to the shallow reef around Little San Salvador Island, the balance of $80M still buys a lot even if a good chunk of that was needed for behind the scenes infrastructure such as water/waste treatment, power, environmental remediation, and possibly some permanent party staff accommodations.

[dpm321]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:05 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

I always wondered that because of the way the front metal plate dropped into the water. 
 

You are a wealth of knowledge, thank you 🙂

On our first HAL cruise those landing craft (tenders) were carried on the bow of the Norway.  The only tenders they had.

[mawvkysc]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:58 AM, POA1 said:

Nope. Twenty-some years ago, when the Zuiderdam launched, she was supposed to be a year round Caribbean ship. She sported a Joe Farcus-designed interior. Farcus was Carnival's chief interior design architect. The ship was quite a departure from HAL's typically classic design.

 

 

Now I finally understand where  that weird red and white bench on the aft pool came from!

[cbr663]

From Carnival Cruise Corp's Fourth Quarter 2023 Earnings Presentation:

https://www.carnivalcorp.com/financial-information/webcasts-presentations