Why Isn't HAL Adding New Ships to Their Fleet

[CNSJ]

I am sure that CCL as owner of HAL, has a plan of sorts that respects age of the ships, required maintenance and associated costs that has to be overlayed on passenger desire and demand forecast.  They do so watching the overall CCL fleet and their competition.  They just aren't sharing it with the public - as it's a business secret.  Also keep in mind they often order a hull under one brand and switch it just before build. 

 

I think HAL sees a winner in the Pinnacle class ships as they have great reviews for the most part (less the Promenade deck [So many new ships have zero promenade]) if you discount the folks that feel Volendam is too big.  Most of those customers left for Oceania or others.

 

Next build will likely not be a "new design" or smaller. Expect more Pinnacle class or a slightly larger ship modeled on the CUNARD Queen Anne design (which is a stretch Pinnacle) Having similar ships makes it easier for ship's officers, engineers, and crew.  Economies of scale.  

 

Time will tell.....

 

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, CNSJ said:

I am sure that CCL as owner of HAL, has a plan of sorts that respects age of the ships, required maintenance and associated costs that has to be overlayed on passenger desire and demand forecast.  They do so watching the overall CCL fleet and their competition.  They just aren't sharing it with the public - as it's a business secret.  Also keep in mind they often order a hull under one brand and switch it just before build. 

 

I think HAL sees a winner in the Pinnacle class ships as they have great reviews for the most part (less the Promenade deck [So many new ships have zero promenade]) if you discount the folks that feel Volendam is too big.  Most of those customers left for Oceania or others.

 

Next build will likely not be a "new design" or smaller. Expect more Pinnacle class or a slightly larger ship modeled on the CUNARD Queen Anne design (which is a stretch Pinnacle) Having similar ships makes it easier for ship's officers, engineers, and crew.  Economies of scale.  

 

Time will tell.....

 

They certainly do have a plan. They have indicated  in their filings and investor calls some aspects of that plan.  The main part is the focus on cash flow and debt reduction in the short term, instead of additional new ship orders.

 

I was pointing out that the impact of Covid and the resulting debt has had on ship orders across all of the CCL lines.  Ships that were on order prior to the shutdown have continued to be completed.  But new orders not placed.  Considering the order history for HAL and the completion of the last Pinnacle ship, the fact that there are no ships currently being worked on for HAL is not unexpected.  Nothing unique to HAL.  

 

This period with a lack of orders will mean a gap in new ships across all of CCL brands and will likely result in some ships being kept longer than has been norm for CCL owned brands

[Hlitner]

13 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

While I agree with so much of what you say, a ship with 3600 passengers would be a hard "no" for me, no matter how wonderful. (And I have not been overwhelmed by Princess in recent years....)

Not sure I would go as far as saying it was wonderful.  DW and I have long enjoyed Princess where we have more cruises (33) then on HAL, although we still have more HAL days.  For whatever reason, Princess just suits our style.  

 

By the way, a few interesting things about that Princess cruise which was round trip out of Port Everglades.  On embarkation day we went to the port at 10:30 and were onboard the ship before 11.  Their oft mocked "medallions" (which are encoded transponders) got us right through the process with no paperwork or lines,  The following week (turn around day) they also started embarkation by 10:30am.   When we got aboard before 11am, they already had live steel band music in the atrium, the bars were hopping, the gelato bar (also in the atrium) was already open, and it was like we had been at sea for a few days.  A completely different vibe than any other cruise on embarkation day where it is usually pretty subdued, and folks generally just crowd into the Lido for lunch.  

 

We now wonder if this is going to be the norm at US Ports where CBP seems to expedite their procedures much faster than in the past.  Princess has taken a lot of heat for their "Medallion system" (which replaces cruise cards) but they seem to have worked out many of the bugs and it helps expedite lots of things (when it works).  I can sit anywhere on the ship, order a drink or some food, and a waiter will find me (the Medallion is like a locator beacon).   This large ship also had the Starlink internet system, and our internet worked quite well for the entire cruise.  That will soon be on all the HAL ships and it is a remarkable improvement.  We have come a long way from the days when we all had to head towards the nearest phone booth, when in many ports :).

 

Hank

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Not sure I would go as far as saying it was wonderful.  DW and I have long enjoyed Princess where we have more cruises (33) then on HAL, although we still have more HAL days.  For whatever reason, Princess just suits our style.  

 

By the way, a few interesting things about that Princess cruise which was round trip out of Port Everglades.  On embarkation day we went to the port at 10:30 and were onboard the ship before 11.  Their oft mocked "medallions" (which are encoded transponders) got us right through the process with no paperwork or lines,  The following week (turn around day) they also started embarkation by 10:30am.   When we got aboard before 11am, they already had live steel band music in the atrium, the bars were hopping, the gelato bar (also in the atrium) was already open, and it was like we had been at sea for a few days.  A completely different vibe than any other cruise on embarkation day where it is usually pretty subdued, and folks generally just crowd into the Lido for lunch.  

 

We now wonder if this is going to be the norm at US Ports where CBP seems to expedite their procedures much faster than in the past.  Princess has taken a lot of heat for their "Medallion system" (which replaces cruise cards) but they seem to have worked out many of the bugs and it helps expedite lots of things (when it works).  I can sit anywhere on the ship, order a drink or some food, and a waiter will find me (the Medallion is like a locator beacon).   This large ship also had the Starlink internet system, and our internet worked quite well for the entire cruise.  That will soon be on all the HAL ships and it is a remarkable improvement.  We have come a long way from the days when we all had to head towards the nearest phone booth, when in many ports :).

 

Hank

We consider the medallion to be a competitive advantage for Princess and miss it when sailing on other lines. 

 

CBP has gotten rather fast now that they have implemented the facial recognition in a number of ports. When facial recognition is used people are processed about as fast as they walk through the line. Do not expect CBP is be much of an issue during disembarkation in the future.

[Boatdrill]

On 12/14/2023 at 2:27 PM, Petronillus said:

 

I'm still grieving the loss of Lincoln Center Stage. HAL invested a ton of money into fine-tuning the acoustics of that space to suit the area as a classical chamber music venue. Maybe the LCS following was too small, but we were a fiercely loyal band.

I know someone who met her future husband at HAL Lincoln Center Stage. When she arrived for the performance, the room was full, but there was one seat remaining. She asked the gentleman sitting next to it if it was taken, and he said no. They were married about a year later (and still are !) .   

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Boatdrill said:

I know someone who met her future husband at HAL Lincoln Center Stage. When she arrived for the performance, the room was full, but there was one seat remaining. She asked the gentleman sitting next to it if it was taken, and he said no. They were married about a year later (and still are !) .   

How romantic! 😊

[CNSJ]

15 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

How romantic! 😊

Assuming they both were not married at the time.....

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, CNSJ said:

Assuming they both were not married at the time.....

Maybe @Boatdrill who made us all aware of this situation can comment on that and hopefully tell us that was not the case.

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, CNSJ said:

Assuming they both were not married at the time.....

 

😱😂

[Boatdrill]

18 hours ago, CNSJ said:

Assuming they both were not married at the time.....

Both single.  🙂  

[kangforpres]

HAL needs to prove to the parent company CCL that they can sustain profitablity and are worthy of new capital investment. CLL is awash in junk bond debt and ordering new builds is not fessable until they pay that down. Maybe a new HAL order in 2027 or 2026 at the earliest.

 

There is a rumor that CCL has a Sister Ship to the new Cunard Queen Anne on hold with Fincanitieri and that order could easily be converted to a Pinnacle class ship for HAL since it is the roughly the same size as the New Queen Anne.

 

-Paul

[TRLD]

51 minutes ago, kangforpres said:

HAL needs to prove to the parent company CCL that they can sustain profitablity and are worthy of new capital investment. CLL is awash in junk bond debt and ordering new builds is not fessable until they pay that down. Maybe a new HAL order in 2027 or 2026 at the earliest.

 

There is a rumor that CCL has a Sister Ship to the new Cunard Queen Anne on hold with Fincanitieri and that order could easily be converted to a Pinnacle class ship for HAL since it is the roughly the same size as the New Queen Anne.

 

-Paul

Pretty much the same for all of the lines and why no new orders have been placed since restart for any line. Only completion of previously placed orders.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, Boatdrill said:

Both single.  🙂  

Thanks for clearing that up. (There are too many cynical people here on cc.)

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, TRLD said:

Pretty much the same for all of the lines and why no new orders have been placed since restart for any line. Only completion of previously placed orders.

 

Sorry, that is not correct.

 

Since the resumption of operations since COVID, Viking Ocean has ordered 6 new hydrogen powered ocean ship, with an additional 4 options. MSC has also ordered the 5th & 6th Explora vessels, which are also hydrogen powered.

 

The new Crystal is also negotiating for 4 new builds, but at this time, I am not aware that they have selected a yard and signed contracts.

 

Could be others, as these are the 3 I recall reading lately.

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Sorry, that is not correct.

 

Since the resumption of operations since COVID, Viking Ocean has ordered 6 new hydrogen powered ocean ship, with an additional 4 options. MSC has also ordered the 5th & 6th Explora vessels, which are also hydrogen powered.

 

The new Crystal is also negotiating for 4 new builds, but at this time, I am not aware that they have selected a yard and signed contracts.

 

Could be others, as these are the 3 I recall reading lately.

The context was  CCL owned brands.  The person I was responding to was talking CCL and HAL needing to prove things to them  the previous posts were  in terms of HAL and other CCL owned brands.  No CCL owned brands have ordered ships since the restart only completed existing orders.  After all this topic is about why HAL has no ships on order. In that context HAL had one ship completed since the shutdown.  But has not had any new orders placed, same as the rest of the CCL lines.

 

Certainly MSC and other lines have placed some new orders.

Edited December 20, 2023 by TRLD

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

The context was  CCL owned brands.  The person I was responding to was talking CCL and HAL needing to prove things to them  the previous posts were  in terms of HAL and other CCL owned brands.  No CCL owned brands have ordered ships since the restart only completed existing orders.  After all this topic is about why HAL has no ships on order. In that context HAL had one ship completed since the shutdown.  But has not had any new orders placed, same as the rest of the CCL lines.

 

Certainly MSC and other lines have placed some new orders.

 

Yes, I am aware Carnival hasn't ordered new tonnage, a fact I noted earlier in post #72.

 

I, and probably many, do not read the post you quoted, since many of them are greyed out, so I have no idea as to the context of your reply. As is usual on CC, thread drift has ensured the discussion has not been only HAL or other Carnival brands.

 

If only referencing Carnival brands, it will be helpful to specify that rather than "Any Line"

[Hlitner]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:11 AM, Gail & Marty sailing away said:

It's good that Holland is watching what they spend money on.

Sounds a bit defensive.  New Builds are huge capital expenditures and the ultimate decision rests with the CEO of Carnival Cruise Corp and their board of directors.  Like most business-orented folks who have a "fiduciary" responsibility to stockholders, the board ulitmately puts their dollars and future investments where they expect to get the best return on investment.  One can conclude, that at the current time, the board does not think that HAL can justify (financially) a new build.  

 

When we look at the overall cruise industry (we cruise on many different lines) it does seem that HAL has now been positioned as a budget mass market line with a primary appeal to a small segment of the cruising public (older folks looking for good value without much interest in entertainment, activities, or onboard "bells and whistles."   Perhaps that will change in the future, but our recent cruise (Westerdam) showed us that HAL has little to offer (when compared to the other lines we cruise) other than decent itineraries and some decent pricing.  In many cases we see other lines constantly adding things while HAL continues to take things away (i.e. cost cutting).  There is a reason why we find many past HAL cruisers on lines like Oceania, Seabourn, etc.  Many of us are simply looking for something closer to the quality and entertainment we USED to find on HAL.  At one time we saw HAL as the "class act" and quality leader among all the mass market lines (Celebrity was close).  These days we just see HAL as a tired old company with an emphasis on penny pinching.  One has only to look at HAL's recently failed policy of charging extra money for folks who simply wanted to order soup and a salad in the PG!  or having a basic drink package which had a $1.18 extra fee for folks ordering a basic Cosmopolitan.  Small things, but symbolic of a penny pinching (nickel and dime) philosophy.

 

Hank

[Blackduck59]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Sounds a bit defensive.  New Builds are huge capital expenditures and the ultimate decision rests with the CEO of Carnival Cruise Corp and their board of directors.  Like most business-orented folks who have a "fiduciary" responsibility to stockholders, the board ulitmately puts their dollars and future investments where they expect to get the best return on investment.  One can conclude, that at the current time, the board does not think that HAL can justify (financially) a new build.  

 

When we look at the overall cruise industry (we cruise on many different lines) it does seem that HAL has now been positioned as a budget mass market line with a primary appeal to a small segment of the cruising public (older folks looking for good value without much interest in entertainment, activities, or onboard "bells and whistles."   Perhaps that will change in the future, but our recent cruise (Westerdam) showed us that HAL has little to offer (when compared to the other lines we cruise) other than decent itineraries and some decent pricing.  In many cases we see other lines constantly adding things while HAL continues to take things away (i.e. cost cutting).  There is a reason why we find many past HAL cruisers on lines like Oceania, Seabourn, etc.  Many of us are simply looking for something closer to the quality and entertainment we USED to find on HAL.  At one time we saw HAL as the "class act" and quality leader among all the mass market lines (Celebrity was close).  These days we just see HAL as a tired old company with an emphasis on penny pinching.  One has only to look at HAL's recently failed policy of charging extra money for folks who simply wanted to order soup and a salad in the PG!  or having a basic drink package which had a $1.18 extra fee for folks ordering a basic Cosmopolitan.  Small things, but symbolic of a penny pinching (nickel and dime) philosophy.

 

Hank

 

I'm trying to understand just exactly what this long post has to do with "new ships for HAL". It is just another slag HAL and promote any other line, often those with much higher prices.

We get it you're pi**ed at HAL, and you feel that every other cruise line is miles better. Clearly the HAL product does not suit YOUR requirements, so let it go and move on to those premium brands that you so enjoy. Or you could apply for the job of CEO and drag this failing line into a new prosperity.

I have no idea what HAL has in mind for new builds or the time line for making new orders; however I hope they are not any larger than the current "Pinnacle" class. I think that there is a market for smaller ships (not luxury line small) that can go to ports without tendering. We will have to see what the future brings but those people who enjoy what HAL has to offer will be around for some time to come. Some will be disgruntled and move on, others will move to HAL because the lines they used to enjoy aren't what they want now.

[foodsvcmgr]

I understand that HAL is behind the times/competition on suite amenities, “ship within a ship”, etc.

But for those in the regular cabins and balconies it seems to still offer a decent somewhat upscale product.

Hopefully they will find some direction with entertainment again in the not too distant future.

Once they establish a clearer trajectory and market segment would be a more appropriate time for newbuilds.

In reality if the average age is under 20 years, how many new ships does any line truly need to add right now?

[Blackduck59]

@foodsvcmgr I am not a huge fan of "exclusive" suite amenities and even less of a fan of "Ship within a ship". They are both ways for the Suite crowd to look down on the other passengers when they come out of their private enclave and take up prime space in the theatre for the shows or wander in to the dining room being all special. I like the set up HAL has now, pay for a Premium suite get a large premium cabin, priority boarding, and priority seating in the dining room. Of course there is also the lunches in Pinnacle grill. 

I would hope that any new builds or refits will NOT include "exclusive" suite restaurants or god forbid a "ship within a ship". I would suggest those that need those things should perhaps look at the luxury brands. Of course if they were to go there where everyone is "special" then there is nobody to look down on.

Edited February 11 by Blackduck59

[foodsvcmgr]

Understood, we sail in standard verandas so have no complaints with the current arrangement.

I don’t care if suites have their own restaurant as it doesn’t take anything from me like restricted forward facing decks and lounges do on some newbuilds today.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Blackduck59 said:

 

I would hope that any new builds or refits will NOT include "exclusive" suite restaurants or god forbid a "ship within a ship". 

 

From your mouth to HAL management's ears...

 

And on the slightly more upscale lines I've been on, everyone is still pretty equal except for perhaps having a butler or a small lounge. Neither Oceania nor Azamara has a separate dining room or "reserved" areas of the ship (beyond what I mentioned). 

 

[tscoffey]

2 hours ago, Blackduck59 said:

They are both ways for the Suite crowd to look down on the other passengers when they come out of their private enclave and take up prime space in the theatre for the shows or wander in to the dining room being all special.

And yet there are likely people who feel the same about any of us when we discuss our high class (relatively) vacations, when all they can afford is to take their family for a weekend at a state park.

Try not to assume the intentions of others.

[Blackduck59]

1 minute ago, tscoffey said:

And yet there are likely people who feel the same about any of us when we discuss our high class (relatively) vacations, when all they can afford is to take their family for a weekend at a state park.

Try not to assume the intentions of others.

I do not "assume the intentions of others" I have witnessed with my own eyes the "suite" mentality on Celebrity, as well as the "I'm an x# star mariner or elite or whatever" to imply they are more special. I'm just a poor working person who saves for years to enjoy a cruise. So now that you have scolded me I have taken note and don't feel my observations are disproved by your analogy.

[Mary229]

25 minutes ago, tscoffey said:

And yet there are likely people who feel the same about any of us when we discuss our high class (relatively) vacations, when all they can afford is to take their family for a weekend at a state park.

Try not to assume the intentions of others.

I somewhat agree.  Some of us what so much from a cruise line and really don’t want to pay for the other stuff, we like the menu of options, we like the customization. The mode of travel is key, sailing is so much better than flying. 

 

I think both @Hiltner and I agree that HAL has historically had some great itineraries and that emphasis is their strength.  And that is why he continues to participate in this forum.  If they build more ships I would like to see more ships designed for the long haul, distinctive itineraries.  Those ships are generally smaller so they can access more ports