New rules for wheelchair users

[sandancer]

2 hours ago, Cruising Nomads said:

Yes and on Princess they even allow motorised scooters out in the corridor any time day or night.

Not on our recent Regal Princess cruise. Did not see a single mobility scooter or wheelchair left out overnight. I would be very alarmed if that was the case as my husband has mobility issues and uses either a manual wheelchair or Rollator. He has enough problems getting by the room attendants carts in the corridors. 

[Victoria2]

7 minutes ago, Cruising Nomads said:

Yes I am meaning left overnight and during the day when not in use.

That would be a total minus for Princess for me if that's the case. If I ever saw scooter or wheelchair of any description parked in a corridor, the hotel manager would be hearing from me in the first instance.

[AchileLauro]

22 minutes ago, Cruising Nomads said:

Yes I am meaning left overnight and during the day when not in use.

Totally unacceptable, you should have reported it to the ship's safety officer.

[sandancer]

30 minutes ago, Cruising Nomads said:

Yes I am meaning left overnight and during the day when not in use.

Which Princess ship was this?

[Cruising Nomads]

From what I have been told by people on Sky Princess at the moment it is left outside in the corridor all day and night when not in use. This I believe is on deck 11 portside. I am sure other forum members are travelling on this cruise and if they want to check this out and confirm what I have been told it would be quite easy to do.

[sandancer]

4 hours ago, Cruising Nomads said:

Yes and on Princess they even allow motorised scooters out in the corridor any time day or night.

So you are talking about one scooter on one cruise. The tone of your post made me think that this was across the fleet. I’m sure many others will also be under the same impression. 

[Cruising Nomads]

Sorry Sandancer you miss read my post, but surely one scooter is one too many. Also this is just one that I have been told about who knows how many more are not been mentioned or reported.

[mrsgoggins]

2 hours ago, Cruising Nomads said:

Sorry Sandancer you miss read my post, but surely one scooter is one too many. Also this is just one that I have been told about who knows how many more are not been mentioned or reported.

 

I'm on Sky Princess at the moment and have not seen evidence of this, although I haven't been around to check.

 

There are very many mobility aids (of all types) on this 31 night cruise.

 

On the other hand, I did witness this (outside of one cabin) regularly on Iona, deck 10, in July. I would guess that a blind eye is often turned unless someone reports it.

[sandancer]

P&O on the One Show Watchdog again tonight. This is not going away!  

Edited Wednesday at 06:09 PM by sandancer

[terrierjohn]

9 minutes ago, sandancer said:

P&O on the One Show Watchdog again tonight. This is not going away!  

But there clearly had been no comments from P&O, it's amazing how deep the management can bury their heads in the sand.

[sandancer]

The poor people they featured tonight were devastated that they can’t cruise when they were so looking forward to it. 

[Selbourne]

Just watched the segment also. What a shambles. It’s a good job that P&Os on board experience is pretty good, because their land based organisation is extremely amateur.

 

We’ve known for years that their IT team is incompetent but that description has to extend to their PR team as well. I’m also sorry to say that this episode also shows that Paul Ludlow is a weak leader, as had I been in his shoes I’d have instructed my senior team to get the PR message on this issue sorted once and for all after the last time they were made fools of on the BBC One Show.

 

They have clearly learned nothing from their first experience and have made the same mistake again. They need to take control of the narrative but are failing abysmally. 
 

 

[mrsgoggins]

53 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

But there clearly had been no comments from P&O, it's amazing how deep the management can bury their heads in the sand.

 

Absolutely. They have made a real pig's ear of this change. It doesn't affect me personally but I feel annoyed on behalf of others who have got nowhere when explaining the flaws.

 

It's unbelievable that P&O would allow the booking of a fully accessible cabin without an evacuation chair being available!

 

I forsee a bonanza of bookings for other lines (apart from P&O and Cunard) who sail out of the UK, and heh, still with Carnival shareholder OBC if it's with Princess!

 

 

[Megabear2]

I haven't watched the new piece but have read the summing up.  This basically says too many with disabilities wanting to travel.  I assume no one from Watchdog challenged them on how anyone making a booking more than two years out was expected to know of these changes when they clearly detail in their reply to Watchdog dates of policy changes as 2023 and as we know from previous discussions and threads these 'notifications' were unclear as to their meaning at the time they were sent. Here's the link to Watchdog's notes.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4p3NHQCbV9FScZ4LJH2DDdS/p-o-october-2024

 

[Ardennais]

5 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

But there clearly had been no comments from P&O, it's amazing how deep the management can bury their heads in the sand.

I have come across many ‘managers’ over the years who have perfected the art of burying their heads in the sand! 

[S1971]

"It said it carried out a full review of the number of guests with mobility needs it can carry, to ensure it can safely evacuate everyone from the ship within the required time frame in order to meet the international SOLAS (safety of lives at sea) regulation, in the unlikely event of an emergency."

 

With the above in mind, I guess that means all other mainstream cruiseline are breaching SOLAS regulations.

 

Somehow I think not, they are simply hiding behind this to discriminate against those with disabilities and save money at the same time.

[Selbourne]

6 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

This basically says too many with disabilities wanting to travel.

Yes, that’s what I took from it as well. 
 

There are two things that I fail to understand and would really like to see a formal response from Carnival UK about;

 

1) Why are P&O and Carnival the only two lines adopting this stance?

 

2) How can they allow someone to successfully book an accessible cabin, only to subsequently say that they are unable to cope with them, supposedly due to a lack of evacuation chairs? 
 

[Winifred 22]

1 hour ago, S1971 said:

"It said it carried out a full review of the number of guests with mobility needs it can carry, to ensure it can safely evacuate everyone from the ship within the required time frame in order to meet the international SOLAS (safety of lives at sea) regulation, in the unlikely event of an emergency."

 

With the above in mind, I guess that means all other mainstream cruiseline are breaching SOLAS regulations.

 

Somehow I think not, they are simply hiding behind this to discriminate against those with disabilities and save money at the same time.

Given this response : This varies per ship, per sailing and also on the ship design.
This is your answer, other lines don’t have the exact same ships doing the exact same itineraries. Therefore it’s not a case of one size fits all. There is no implication that other lines are breaching regulations either. Different ship designs , different itineraries equals different criteria. 

Edited yesterday at 06:39 AM by Winifred 22

[emam]

13 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

 How can they allow someone to successfully book an accessible cabin, only to subsequently say that they are unable to cope with them, supposedly due to a lack of evacuation chairs? 
 

 

That also means that for that cruise that cabin will be unused.

 

Nicky tried to book a cruise for her and there's none available to 2026.

 

They were showing a chair going down the stairs. So if the worst happened, would the people using a chair be taken down a separate stairway to that which everyone else is using or the same way?

[Winifred 22]

Just now, emam said:

 

That also means that for that cruise that cabin will be unused.

 

Nicky tried to book a cruise for her and there's none available to 2026.

 

They were showing a chair going down the stairs. So if the worst happened, would the people using a chair be taken down a separate stairway to that which everyone else is using or the same way?

I would imagine so yes. They probably would use crew only area stairs but I am only speculating and not speaking from a point of knowledge which I appreciate is not overly helpful.

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, emam said:

 

That also means that for that cruise that cabin will be unused.

 

Nicky tried to book a cruise for her and there's none available to 2026.

 

They were showing a chair going down the stairs. So if the worst happened, would the people using a chair be taken down a separate stairway to that which everyone else is using or the same way?

Britannia having no midships stairs we have in the past been directed to use crew stairs for the emergency drill and I therefore assume those stairs are an integral part of the emergency plan for her.  When Britannia had her argument with the tanker in Palma last year (which I still see as a trigger point for all this disability "ban" due to the timing of announcements) I'd like to know whether this became an issue as it's the closest we've actually gotten to a real emergency situation.

 

Regarding not using the cabin this will not happen. There have been several instances on the Cunard board since this new policy being introduced of passengers being allocated one of these adapted cabins as savers and I'd assume P&O are doing the same and we just haven’t heard of any individual occasions this has happened here.

 

I'd be interested in crew figures for sailings on Sky and Regal Princess for her ex UK sailings as comparing these against Britannia's couid show if the number of personnel on what are basically three identical vessels are the same.  If, as is being suggested, the availability of crew is driving the P&O/Cunard "safety" planning for disabilities then the two Princess ships theoretically should show a substantial number more as they are not operating the same policies.  Assumedly this information is somewhere in the public domain as a regular Cunard poster gives the crew and passenger numbers for each sailing and clearly monitors them from somewhere.

Edited yesterday at 07:42 AM by Megabear2

[Victoria2]

1 hour ago, Selbourne said:

Yes, that’s what I took from it as well. 
 

There are two things that I fail to understand and would really like to see a formal response from Carnival UK about;

 

1) Why are P&O and Carnival the only two lines adopting this stance?

 

2) How can they allow someone to successfully book an accessible cabin, only to subsequently say that they are unable to cope with them, supposedly due to a lack of evacuation chairs? 
 

As the wife of an interested party who fortunately, has a 'correct' cabin booked and who has been filling out THE form the day cruises are booked since the form has been required I can only sympathise with those who have had their holiday plans ruined but note as this is a safety requirement [and who are we to question that], as cabins will have been booked going forward at least eighteen months there's no good time to implement it  so do it now.

 

What I DO find strange is the fact an accessible cabin doesn't automatically have an evac chair assigned to it.

 

If, as suggested, other cruise lines will benefit from mobility challenged passengers booking elsewhere, I can't help but think those lines will themselves start to have a posible issue with H&S in an evacuation scenario.

 

 

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, Victoria2 said:

As the wife of an interested party who fortunately, has a 'correct' cabin booked and who has been filling out THE form the day cruises are booked since the form has been required I can only sympathise with those who have had their holiday plans ruined but note as this is a safety requirement [and who are we to question that], as cabins will have been booked going forward at least eighteen months there's no good time to implement it  so do it now.

 

What I DO find strange is the fact an accessible cabin doesn't automatically have an evac chair assigned to it.

 

If, as suggested, other cruise lines will benefit from mobility challenged passengers booking elsewhere, I can't help but think those lines will themselves start to have a posible issue with H&S in an evacuation scenario.

 

 

Unfortunately the "problem" is totally different on P&O to Cunard.  None of the Cunard ships have these "half way house" types of cabins and Cunard have never taken the more "relaxed" route on bookings for those in wheelchairs or using scooters.  Your "correct" cabin is a top end suite and apart from having to book on launch you will not have encountered a problem and most likely never will.  It is a very different story on the P&O ships where specific cabins have been incorporated into the build design of the newer ships which are effectively "half way house". 

 

These cabins started life as full disability cabins, were redesignated as partially accessible a short time after Iona started sailing and are now apparently totally unsuitable for any disability challenged passenger needing any form of wheelchair or scooter.  So in effect they have become a class of their own, a sort of midway between unadapted and adapted. Yet those with quite often severely limited mobility using rollators and walking aids can still book them as chairs are not now (or previously) deemed necessary for those using these cabins.  Health and safety may well be a question, but it looks like a tick box exercise rather than a genuine cutting back of numbers of mobility challenged passengers.  If safety is the genuine concern where are the policy changes spelling out exactly what percentage of rollators, walking frames, walking sticks etc are to be allowed onboard each vessel?  Given the demographics of the passengers on all bar Iona and Arvia taking that route would decimate the prospective passenger "bank" for Cunard and the majority of the P&O fleet. In other words financial suicide.

 

The question then becomes who is able to use these cabins going forward, how are they going to be sold, how do you define the criteria for their use and more importantly what do you do with the passengers you have allowed to book these several years in advance now you've decided they are unsuitable? 

 

This creates two very interesting conundrums for P&O.  These cabins are at the cheap end of the spectrum, thereby having deliberately encouraged the growth of the disability market and as a result being very well subscribed to and booked long into the future - think how you want your Q1/Q2 on your favourite Queen and book day of release, that's what these people have done. If these people could have afforded a suite (which P&O are now offering them as an alternative if they are available) I've no doubt they would have booked one at the outset but the truth is they are beyond this particular group's financial budget so in some cases they are suffering very late cancellation of their holidays with little to no prospect of finding any replacement anywhere either at sea or on land. Any unsold availability into 2025 has been filled by the thousands P&O have displaced which is assumedly why no availability until 2026 and so the knock on effect that no passenger who is not booked at this point will be able to travel in 2025 and will go elsewhere where they are welcomed be it on land or sea.

 

The other problem is how to market themselves to those with disabilities going forward. We have these designated cabins which are no longer apparently fit for use, so how exactly do you sell them? Yes very vague questions on disability related issues are asked on booking but they cannot be too intrusive for risk of breaking laws on access for all.  Yes you are asked to complete a form once you are booked but that form is very badly worded for those who are not fully disabled and are in extremely confused terms.  So does the agent or travel agent get instructed to go into a person's walking, fitness and general movement ability in the same way as someone applying for a Blue Badge or is a flag introduced at point of sale if a walking stick is mentioned it becomes a no no - sorry only 30% of passengers allowed onboard can have a walking stick for instance.

 

If this thin disguise of 'safety' really is the issue then surely every single passenger should be questioned BEFORE a booking is accepted and not being told you can book but we might reject you years down the line if we change our rules.  If you want to openly state your two lines are taking health and safety above and beyond the 49 other registered cruise lines operating around the world you will have to prove it some way other than by a tick box exercise which can have massive holes picked in it.

 

[Cathygh]

I think we hahve established that there are a limited number of evac chairs available and a limited number of staff who can operate them.

 

Meanwhile, there a number of passengers who need an evac chair but who do not need an adapted cabin eg someone with bad arthritis can manage to walk around the ship but can not climb or descend stairs, and they are often the people who need assistance on embarkation/disembarkation as the walkways are too steep and long for them to walk unaided. I know of someone about to sail with P&O who is in the situation and who has an evac chair allocated.

 

How many chairs can P&O operate on their ships currently? They aren't saying. There seems to be no willingness to invest in additional chairs and the staff required to use them. A quick google shows the chairs cost from £143 to over £800. I guess they could get the cost down for a bulk buy. 

 

I don't think P&O need to dilute the policy, but they do need to get more chairs and staff trained to use them asap.

[Victoria2]

I totally understand your post Megabear2 and agree with all of it. I am aware there are differences between the two lines as I have friends who have been impacted. Luckily, their part adapted cabin has been deemed OK too. The fact we are 'OK' has no bearing on my understanding of the horror of the situation.

 

Life is unfair or unequal to many sections of society and being disabled is no joke whatsoever. We learnt years ago the disabled have a difficult time as far as travel is concerned and be it hotel or cruise, train or plane we unfortunately have to book as early as we can to ensure assistance and the correct accommodation. In doing so, we have lost money in the past when not able to complete the journey/booking but haven't claimed on Ins. as there would come a time when we could be uninsured because of so many claims and that would be the end of travelling.

 

My comment is based purely on the fact if the company has decided to go forward with their T&C changes [without a detailed reason why], there is no good time to implement the changes.

 

Times have changed. The fact so many  P&O cabins have had labels as far as disability of some sort is concerned is now in the past. The new T&Cs make that evident. It's cold comfort to those affected and I reiterate, those with cancelled bookings have my utmost sympathy. It's not  fair at all but it is what it is until possibly more staff and evac chairs are provided.

 

The form should be completed and submitted with the booking. One assumes [it could be a mistake to assume but I have to here] a  member of the disability [yes, there is a dept. for this apparently] staff will [should]  scrutinise the completed form. Not all mobility challenged passengers will require an evac chair. The form requires a list of equipment to be brought and a rollator or walking sticks would not necessarily require an evac chair. An arm to rest on and to guide could be sufficient for the many. At that point and possibly after personal questions, it should be evident to the disability dept. what is available and the booking should be completed or rejected at that point.

 

I have no idea why all this has come about and it does strike me it's all been hurriedly imposed without in depth thinking but if it means in the unlikely situation an evacuation is required then one can only hope all the disabled passengers onboard will be accounted for either in their cabin in the first instance and then will be helped down to the muster station whilst the able bodied will not be impeded in any way by those struggling to get down the stairs.* without trained help.

 

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Victoria2
added *