Is Holland America Line falling behind?

[LetItSnow]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

I voted with my wallet and skipped booking the Zaandam. Those of you who love her can vote with your wallet and book away :). Different strokes.

We booked (way back in June) the Zaandam for a 17-day Hawaiian cruise in November 2025.  If the ship is in that bad of a shape, I can only imagine what another 12 months will do to the poor girl.  I'll have to keep an eye out for reports on her condition.

[BermudaBound2014]

25 minutes ago, ldtr1 said:

Currently setting down to tea. Will give more detailed response later

 

I look forward.

 

When you do come back, please LINK to these easy to look at public data source(S) which show revenue performance numbers for HAL. I've asked for links from you before and you continually choose to avoid that simple request.

 

We both use cruise market watch which does differentiate between cruise lines. No need to link there.

 

I have read all the SEC filings and they do not differentiate cruise line performance (if I'm wrong please link).

 

 I've listened to every conference call since 2021 and can not recall a single time that the suits have differentiated cruise line performance numbers other than maybe Weinstein's latest conference call where he come out and said that the top three preforming brands are Carnival, Aida, and P&O (without providing specific performance numbers). If I'm wrong, please link.

 

News and business reports (again, please link to a source that differentiates performance).

 

I don't believe that there are 'easy to look at public data sources to get revenue performance numbers for HAL". 

 

We can all read a 10Q.

 

You are clearly a bright man, but many of your statements are wildly speculative and I'm skeptical by nature. Humor me.

 

Enjoy your tea :). 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ldtr1 said:

Pretty easy to look at public data sources to get revenue performance numbers on HAL.

 

Edited 23 hours ago by BermudaBound2014

[ldtr1]

Costa now has a fleet capacity of 29,140 and in 2024 has carried 1,409,100 passengers or 4.7 percent of the industry

 

Compare that to HAL which has a fleet capacity of 22,920 and has carried 796,500

 

or Princess with fleet with the Sun of 50,400 and carried 1,649,600.

 

Now which has the highest passenger to capacity ratio, Costa. 

 

Was a bit different before 8000 capacity was transfered to Carnival.

[ldtr1]

21 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I look forward.

 

When you do come back, please LINK to these easy to look at public data source(S) which show revenue performance numbers for HAL. I've asked for links from you before and you continually choose to avoid that simple request.

 

We both use cruise market watch which does differentiate between cruise lines. No need to link there.

 

I have read all the SEC filings and they do not differentiate cruise line performance (if I'm wrong please link).

 

 I've listened to every conference call since 2021 and can not recall a single time that the suits have differentiated cruise line performance numbers other than maybe Weinstein's latest conference call where he come out and said that the top three preforming brands are Carnival, Aida, and P&O (without providing specific performance numbers). If I'm wrong, please link.

 

News and business reports (again, please link to a source that differentiates performance).

 

I don't believe that there are 'easy to look at public data sources to get revenue performance numbers for HAL". 

 

We can all read a 10Q.

 

You are clearly a bright man, but many of your statements are wildly speculative and I'm skeptical by nature. Humor me.

 

Enjoy your tea :). 

 

 

 

 

The best source for that is cruise market watch for passengers, line revenue, etc With sec fililings as a way to validate the totals.

 

Satista also gives some.

 

The rest you have to pull out in drips and drabs from articles, analyst calls, clia and other trade orgnizations and news articles.

 

Often requires taking different pieces and assemble them to get an overall picture.

 

Lots of ways to combine and check. One example is capacity efficiency using revenue from market watch and fleet size ftom sec filing.

 

Another is passengers per fleet capacity such as the look at Costa above.

 

Will have to dig up  percentage business in Caribbean by brand. That used to be in a florida trade publication each year but have not looked for it lately.

Edited 23 hours ago by ldtr1

[HappyInVan]

4 hours ago, Menocchio said:

So I ask you, does HAL need new ships? Not from a business standpoint, but from a customer satisfaction one. Are HAL's ships getting too old, worn down, unreliable, or dated to be enjoyable? Are they missing amenities that newer vessels regular offer? Are you just bored with them? And if so to any of these, could this instead be solved at drydock?

 

I think CCL is going to continue to focus on megaships and shorter itineraries. That's what makes them the most money, so that's where they'll spend the most money. Even after their debt is paid down. That doesn't mean they'll get rid of HAL, but they will expand the fleet very slowly if at all and replace ships only as they absolutely need to. 

 

 

There must be a reason why the other companies are ordering bigger LNG ships. They are able to cut costs and offer more experiences. This translate to $$$.

 

This has an impact on Carnival and even HAL because this is where the cruise industry will be growing. And, where the money will be in the future.

 

As the megaships keep prices down, it will be harder for the smaller older ships to compete. So, harder for HAL customers to justify.

 

I do agree with you that CCL will be focusing on Carnival and Princess where the bulk of their revenues come from. Currently, Carnival is vying for second place with MSC in terms of tonnage. Dare they fall to third or fourth place?

 

 

3 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I know I'm going to collect more haters from the camp of folks who love the Zaandam. It goes with out saying that this is just my opinion.

 

I was very much interested in a Zaandam sailing. In researching I found that the bathrooms have undergone a very inconsistent pattern of renovation and some are, well, brutally past the need for renovation...

 

They absolutely could be, but likely not without an extensive drydock budget. Given that HAL is only doing a 'basic' 8 Million dollar drydock on her sister ship Volendam, it seems unlikely. More importantly, how did HAL let this bathroom get so bad?

 

We might not be there yet, but on some of the older gals we're getting very close. I voted with my wallet and skipped booking the Zaandam. Those of you who love her can vote with your wallet and book away :).

 

Different strokes.

 

Yes, I noticed it too on the Volendam. Much rust under multiple layers of paint. Clearly visible to those with normal vision.

 

Edited 20 hours ago by HappyInVan

[ldtr1]

Just now, HappyInVan said:

 

There must be a reason why the other companies are ordering bigger LNG ships. They are able to cut costs and offer more experiences. This translate to $$$.

 

This has an impact on Carnival and even HAL because this is where the cruise industry will be growing. And, where the money will be in the future.

 

As the megaships keep prices down, it will be harder for the smaller older ships to compete. So, harder for HAL customers to justify.

 

I do agree with you that CCL will be focusing on Carnival and Princess where the bulk of their revenues come from. Currently, Carnival is vying for second place with MSC in terms of tonnage. Dare they fall to third or fourth place?

 

 

 

Yes, I noticed it too on the Volendam. Much rust under multiple layers of paint. Clearly visible to those with normal vision.

 

Large LNG ships do nice on shorter, repetitive routes. Especially since in NA LNG is cheaper then diesel.

 

Not so well in the longer unique routes in the south pacific, asia, south america and africa that HAL has been known for.

 

The Chengkp7 went over it in detail when you brought up the same repetitive claim a few weeks back.

 

HAL is not in competition to any large degree with the mega ships. They go to a relative few crowded ports on short repetitive itineraries. That is not HALs niche 

 

Your arguements are a little along the lines of apples are cheaper than oranges so noone will buy them.

 

Gee according to your posts i guess the industry will consolidate to a few companies operating megaships that do the same itineraries over and over because of economy of scale and lots of bells and whistles.  Really not so much.

 

 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

As the megaships keep prices down, it will be harder for the smaller older ships to compete. So, harder for HAL customers to justify.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are the mega ships really keeping prices down? As I understand it the prices on the new Royal Caribbean monstrosities of the seas are sky high.

[Menocchio]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

There must be a reason why the other companies are ordering bigger LNG ships. They are able to cut costs and offer more experiences. This translate to $$$.

That's certainly the bigger market, but it's not the only one. The luxury lines are also still around and still expanding. MSC's luxury brand Explora just started up in 2023 and has four ships on order. All of them at about the size of HAL's smallest ships. And they are hardly the only luxury line expanding. It is not inevitable that all cruise lines will solely expand in the mass market megaship direction forever. 

 

The question is if CCL sees a viable niche between Princess and Seabourn. Smaller ships than the mass market lines, but not so small as the luxury lines (and with many more staterooms). And with prices that are also between those poles. I think there probably is.

[ldtr1]

Just now, Menocchio said:

That's certainly the bigger market, but it's not the only one. The luxury lines are also still around and still expanding. MSC's luxury brand Explora just started up in 2023 and has four ships on order. All of them at about the size of HAL's smallest ships. And they are hardly the only luxury line expanding. It is not inevitable that all cruise lines will solely expand in the mass market megaship direction forever. 

 

The question is if CCL sees a viable niche between Princess and Seabourn. Smaller ships than the mass market lines, but not so small as the luxury lines (and with many more staterooms). And with prices that are also between those poles. I think there probably is.

Explora ships are 922. Similar to Viking. Of course the average fare is more than twice the average HAL fare.  Now HAL is in a niche all of its own. The premium and luxury segments are crowded and getting even more crowded. Not much reason for HAL to move out of its current niche, which is smallest average ship size, most unique itineraries, and longest average itinerary length at a mass market price point.

 

CCL is moving Princess even further out of HALs niche with its increasing ship size. Any future HAL ships will almost certainly be in the 2000 range.

 

Do not see CCL doing anything in the Premium space unless one of those existing lines fail and a bargain comes along. Even then unlikely for CCL to move there. It really is not how CCL built their business which is on the value side, with volume, with niche markets. PO UK close to Princess but focused on UK, Aida on Germany, Costa on Italy. Carnival NA family value focused, Princess NA adult focused, Cunard UK NA traditional liner focused, HAL unique itineraries. Even RCL chose to sell off it premium brand Azamara. Though, like CCL has kept a luxury brand.

 

The closest CCL comes tp a premium price point is Cunard, but even it is below the real premium players, being inbetween the two categories.

Edited 18 hours ago by ldtr1

[dockman]

I am thankful that I have done dozens of cruises over the past 30 or so years and was fortunate to experience a more intimate, relaxing, time where ships had nice libraries, nice wide teak promenade decks, more elegant dining, more talented enrichment speakers along with learning programs..where with less passengers the staff knew you by name and would often remember you years later....

 

Holland has provided me with a lot of wonderful memories of cruising without all the bells and whistles, without people being encouraged to drink themselves silly and sit and scroll on phones, tablets all day with the packages being pushed. 

 

In those days it just seemed overall a more civil group of passengers, with more diverse conversations, more courtesy and civility. More passengers who did not require or want piped music into most every public area, did not want or need a medallion to open their door or to get a drink.

 

.  It was a quieter more simple time that i find is being replaced by bigger flashier "shiny things" which apparently is what sells now. Now it seems that the marketing hype is  bigger is better, more people, more rock climbing , go karts,water slides, more pay restaurants, more 15 drinks a day packages ,more shops, more nickle and diming at every turn. Reminds me more and more of a combo theme park and shopping mall.  Not what I want on a cruise.

 

Of course I know that the entire industry is changing where the massive new ships appeal to many and apparently make more $$. 

 

I guess I am just an old man talking about how good it all used to be.  But i suspect there are a lot of people who remember fondly and  prefer the cruise experience of years gone by. 

 

I will finish out my life of cruising happily on the smaller older ships and let others have the "joy" of 6000 passengers with all the bells and whistles.  Frankly after 7+ decades I have had enough of bells and whistles.  To each his own.  

[*Miss G*]

38 minutes ago, dockman said:

I am thankful that I have done dozens of cruises over the past 30 or so years and was fortunate to experience a more intimate, relaxing, time where ships had nice libraries, nice wide teak promenade decks, more elegant dining, more talented enrichment speakers along with learning programs..where with less passengers the staff knew you by name and would often remember you years later....

 

Holland has provided me with a lot of wonderful memories of cruising without all the bells and whistles, without people being encouraged to drink themselves silly and sit and scroll on phones, tablets all day with the packages being pushed. 

 

In those days it just seemed overall a more civil group of passengers, with more diverse conversations, more courtesy and civility. More passengers who did not require or want piped music into most every public area, did not want or need a medallion to open their door or to get a drink.

 

You’ve just described Cunard. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

2 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

You’ve just described Cunard. 

 

Yes, which is why I love Cunard. Cruising for grownups. HAL is for grownups, too, but they seem to be forgetting that we like to use our brains sometimes, not veg out all of the time with nothing to do. 

 

I was on Queen Elizabeth in Sitka a few years ago. When I left the dock, we were the only ship there. When I returned a huge NCL ship with an amusement park on top was also there. Someone returning to our ship asked an officer, "Why don't we have one of those?" pointing to the water slide. He put on a very serious snooty expression and said, "Because WE are Cunard." I could tell he was joking. Sort of. 

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, ldtr1 said:

Explora ships are 922. Similar to Viking. Of course the average fare is more than twice the average HAL fare.  Now HAL is in a niche all of its own. The premium and luxury segments are crowded and getting even more crowded. Not much reason for HAL to move out of its current niche, which is smallest average ship size, most unique itineraries, and longest average itinerary length at a mass market price point.

 

CCL is moving Princess even further out of HALs niche with its increasing ship size. Any future HAL ships will almost certainly be in the 2000 range.

 

Do not see CCL doing anything in the Premium space unless one of those existing lines fail and a bargain comes along. Even then unlikely for CCL to move there. It really is not how CCL built their business which is on the value side, with volume, with niche markets. PO UK close to Princess but focused on UK, Aida on Germany, Costa on Italy. Carnival NA family value focused, Princess NA adult focused, Cunard UK NA traditional liner focused, HAL unique itineraries. Even RCL chose to sell off it premium brand Azamara. Though, like CCL has kept a luxury brand.

 

The closest CCL comes tp a premium price point is Cunard, but even it is below the real premium players, being inbetween the two categories.

Carnival Corporation owns Seabourn, which I believe is their luxury cruise line.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Ken the cruiser

[ldtr1]

4 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Carnival Corporation owns Seabourn, which I believe is their luxury cruise line.

 

I said that CCL had one luxury line, but no premium.

 

Noted that when i said that when  RCL sold its Premium.line it kept its luxury line just like CCL.

Edited 11 hours ago by ldtr1

[CNSJ]

10 hours ago, dockman said:

Now it seems that the marketing hype is  bigger is better, more people, more rock climbing , go karts,water slides, more pay restaurants, more 15 drinks a day packages ,more shops, more nickle and diming at every turn. Reminds me more and more of a combo theme park and shopping mall. 

I am with you @dockman.  Every time I see the adds for Royal Caribbean and NCL I see the marketing blitz of roller coasters, wave pools, and their private islands etc., I shake my head and are thankful for HAL, even today's HAL.  Celebrity tries to be in the middle, but we found them to be a poor fit service and food (non speciality/suite dining) wise.

 

7 day cruises with 6,000 people is like going to Disney's Magic Kingdom with a lifeboat drill at the beginning.  If I wanted to go on theme park rides, I would just go to Orlando.  Not for us.  

 

Perhaps HAL is not what it was 20 years ago, but DH and I still enjoy diverse itineraries and a somewhat relaxed atmosphere.  We started cruising regularly about 16 years ago, and have seen changes, some good, some not good. 

 

As for the other posters who say CUNARD is the answer, perhaps we will head that way.  Hate to have to get dressed up for dinner every night on port intensive itineraries such as the Mediterranean.  

[Mary229]

10 hours ago, *Miss G* said:

 

You’ve just described Cunard. 

Cunard still doesn’t have the itineraries.  HAL needs to continue to develop their “legendary” series.  It is still in their niche price range (per diem) but offers enhanced enrichment, thematic entertainment and cuisine and is overall a notch up.  I am currently on a back to back (2+2) and there is definitely a substantial difference.  

[*Miss G*]

12 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I am currently on a back to back

On Cunard?

[3rdGenCunarder]

15 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Cunard still doesn’t have the itineraries.  HAL needs to continue to develop their “legendary” series.  It is still in their niche price range (per diem) but offers enhanced enrichment, thematic entertainment and cuisine and is overall a notch up.  I am currently on a back to back (2+2) and there is definitely a substantial difference.  

 

I agree that Cunard needs to work on itineraries. With only three ships until recently, they seemed to stick to the same old, same old itineraries. But the addition of a fourth ship has given them to change things up. I'm seeing a lot of new itineraries for them, especially in Europe where they have two ships. 

 

Part of the problem with HAL's "legendary" cruises is that they focus on entertainment and enrichment on those but not others. As someone who doesn't have that much time in one block, I take cruises in the 1-2 week range and feel like HAL doesn't consider my cruises worth any attention. As they add more "legendaries," I fear their inattention to shorter cruises will cause me to stop sailing with HAL unless I can get a bargain price for what feels like a bargain-basement cruise.

[Mary229]

13 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

On Cunard?

No. HAL and now I understand many of the criticisms I see here. Usually I only sail 3 week+ itineraries that are not B2B.  This is almost a different cruise line than HAL longer itinerary voyages

[Mary229]

6 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I agree that Cunard needs to work on itineraries. With only three ships until recently, they seemed to stick to the same old, same old itineraries. But the addition of a fourth ship has given them to change things up. I'm seeing a lot of new itineraries for them, especially in Europe where they have two ships. 

 

Part of the problem with HAL's "legendary" cruises is that they focus on entertainment and enrichment on those but not others. As someone who doesn't have that much time in one block, I take cruises in the 1-2 week range and feel like HAL doesn't consider my cruises worth any attention. As they add more "legendaries," I fear their inattention to shorter cruises will cause me to stop sailing with HAL unless I can get a bargain price for what feels like a bargain-basement cruise.

This is true and unless it is a very unique short itinerary I likely won’t sail HAL again unless it is a legendary.  The Grands are priced so high I might as well step up to Seabourn or similar 

[Ken the cruiser]

2 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

Part of the problem with HAL's "legendary" cruises is that they focus on entertainment and enrichment on those but not others.

That’s interesting. Now that we’re fully retired, that’s one of the main reasons we have included HAL back into the fold when it comes to longer cruises, as we very much only want to book 3-5 week “single itinerary” ones now unless there is an awesome 2-week one that maybe goes to the Galapagos or Longyearbyen. 
 

But then we’ve pretty much been where all of the shorter 7-10 day itineraries go, especially when it comes to the Caribbean. For us it’s more about the journey now. 😁

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Ken the cruiser

[HappyInVan]

here's only a few sure things in life. Taxes and death, as well as change.

 

Yes, change can be annoying or alarming. There are people who revere the old ways of the Titanic and the aristocracy (Downtown Abby). But, change comes to all. I intend to adapt and thrive.

 

In the world of business, change is based on the profit motive. Where can we get more growth and profits? Where is the next big thing? Should change be based on customer satisfaction, we would still be sailing in Titanic-type ships and the cruise market would be small. Biz have to create new demand!

 

At the same time, change can also be intelligent. Yes, there's a need for big LNG ships. But, there's also markets for smaller $$$ ships. And, a combination of the two.

 

Carnival is the latecomer to the megaship (>200k GT) industry. Should they attempt to hang on to the older ships, they'll end up as the McDonalds of the cruise industry. Departing from more ports, and at a lower price.

 

HAL definitely shouldn't follow their path.

 

Luxury brands have been adding ships like crazy. There's Viking, Ponant and Explora. Even SilverSea and Seabourne. Meanwhile, Hurtriguten Expeditions (Hx) run a mix of new and old. Some of their adventure ships date back to the 1980's and 1990s. Yes, bunk beds are available in steerage. That's authenticity!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seabourn_Cruise_Line#Current_fleet

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurtigruten_AS#Cruise_ships

 

Along the way, NCL (smallest of the big three) pioneered the Haven experience in 2005. Followed by MSC and their Yacht Club. Yes, MSC Yacht Club offers a few inside rooms, and they are great value.

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/the-haven-on-norwegian-cruise-line

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/msc-yacht-club-perks-10-amenities-worth-the-splurge

 

https://www.princess.com/en-us/cruise-deals-promotions/sanctuary-collection-sale

 

In the future, there's bound to be experiments to fill in the middle part of the industry. And, expedition ships offer a touch of excitement beyond the mere exotic. How many times have you been to Hawaii and Tahiti?

 

The current problem for HAL is that the affordable middle segment is shrinking and their itineraries have become ho-hum. Whilst the Pinnacle-class ships can operate as Princess-small, what will become of the mid-size ships (60-80k GT)?

 

Fact is that all-balcony and all-suite ships can earn much higher $$$/foot of cabin space than inside and OV rooms. Its a matter of the design in new ships. Its a reversal of the Volendam design where balconies are in the minority.

 

Technology is rampart and allows vast diversity in experiences. Embrace it and live.

 

[visagrunt]

It bears noting that CCL did some major fleet renewal with HAL during the last decade.  Prinsendam and the S-class were losing money hand over fist because of their low capacity and the inability to charge break even fares (even with the Prinsendam supplement).  They were disposed of in short order, and we probably should not be surprised if Zaandam and Volendam show up on the block sooner rather than later.

Meanwhile 3 new Pinnacle class ships in the span of 8 years.  That's not an inconsiderable investment while other CCL brands were left waiting.

The lack of orders in the next 10 years has to be contextualized in the number of orders in the past 10 years.

As for the soft product, we'll have to see how much the people who are buying the cruises respond to re-tooling the dining, entertainment and enrichment options.  Here in our CruiseCritic bias-confirmation bubble we can opine that the loss of Lincoln Center (sic) Stage and the "Indulge" (sic) upcharges are the death knell of the line.  But what are the 90% of passengers who don't come here to kvetch saying?  I'm still seeing heavily sold cruises in 2026 suggesting that Seattle might have a better handle on their analytics than we do.

[ldtr1]

4 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I agree that Cunard needs to work on itineraries. With only three ships until recently, they seemed to stick to the same old, same old itineraries. But the addition of a fourth ship has given them to change things up. I'm seeing a lot of new itineraries for them, especially in Europe where they have two ships. 

 

Part of the problem with HAL's "legendary" cruises is that they focus on entertainment and enrichment on those but not others. As someone who doesn't have that much time in one block, I take cruises in the 1-2 week range and feel like HAL doesn't consider my cruises worth any attention. As they add more "legendaries," I fear their inattention to shorter cruises will cause me to stop sailing with HAL unless I can get a bargain price for what feels like a bargain-basement cruise.

Problem is that the short cruises are often in very competitive routes where they are in direct competition with every other mass market lines and have competitve pricing with those lines. It is the longer cruises where they can command a higher fare and include the  extras.

 

The shorter itineraries also tend to be more port intensive. Ship is mostly for transport, eating and sleeping.  The longer itineraries tend to have a higher percentage of sea days bringing more value to the extras.

[3rdGenCunarder]

5 minutes ago, ldtr1 said:

The shorter itineraries also tend to be more port intensive. Ship is mostly for transport, eating and sleeping.  The longer itineraries tend to have a higher percentage of sea days bringing more value to the extras.

 

In recent years, my HAL cruises have been winter escapes in the Caribbean. Yes, port intensive, and I do go ashore for part of the day. I don't expect a lot of daytime activities, but I'm onboard every evening, and some variety in the entertainment would be appreciated. I'm not a fan of the loud Music Walk, and on some ships that's about all I have found now that they've dumped classical music. I hear it's getting better, but this January could be my last HAL winter cruise if I'm as bored as I was last year.