Could this happen on =X=?

[richsea]

There was absolutely no indication that this was "abuse of the internet facility." First of all, Azamara cruises are extremely port intensive, including a number of nights in port. Second, the maximum free minutes available was 235 at the highest level, a long way from unlimited.

 

I find it funny that on the Azamara boards they are running 100% against the changes while it is only on the Celebrity boards that there is some "no big deal" reaction. That was exactly a lot of the Celebrity board's reaction when RCCL changed the Diamond benefits in 2009. "Oh, quit whining. It's no big deal." Schadenfreude perhaps?

 

Since virtually 100% of the changes to the Celebrity program have been of a positive nature, it will be real interesting to see the reaction here if the same thing happens. It's like the cuts to the cruising experience--it is never a problem until it effects ME.

 

It seems that about 99% of posters here are against the changes.

[Andy]

There was absolutely no indication that this was "abuse of the internet facility." First of all, Azamara cruises are extremely port intensive, including a number of nights in port. Second, the maximum free minutes available was 235 at the highest level, a long way from unlimited.

 

 

I agree ECCruise. I can't see how abuse was any part of the decision, as this wasn't about "unlimited internet". As you mentioned, the highest level had 235 minutes as a benefit. Now, it's being replaced (effective 1/1/15) with a discount - which seems to be bringing the most unhappiness... but many are unhappy with the loss of the laundry benefit as well.

 

Whatever brought Azamara to make this decision, has left many of their faithful unhappy. Could this happen with Celebrity ? I certainly hope not, but I'd never say never. I think the odds of an Azamarian type move are slim for now, especially since Celebrity rolled out the new updates not too long ago.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Host Andy

[fleckle]

........Whatever brought Azamara to make this decision, has left many of their faithful unhappy. Could this happen with Celebrity ? I certainly hope not, but I'd never say never. I think the odds of an Azamarian type move are slim for now, especially since Celebrity rolled out the new updates not too long ago.

Although it seems unlikely at this time, we are very thankful to ECCruise for posting this information as it gives us food for thought.

 

When they initially rolled out Zenith last year, it looked so attractive that for a brief time we did consider the possibility of chasing Zenith benefits, even though that would have required us to restrict ourselves to cruising Celebrity exclusively, or nearly so.

 

Then we decided that as attractive as Zenith is, we do not want to limit ourselves that way because there are too many wonderful places where Celebrity does not go as well as good reasons to experience other ships.

 

Now seeing what Azamara is doing, it reinforces the reality that any cruise line may change its loyalty program at any time.

 

So we will continue to appreciate and enjoy the perks we receive now, as well as whatever additional perks may come our way in the future, but loyalty perks will remain a very low priority for us when it comes to reasons for choosing a cruise.

 

[waterbug123]

Thread title is "Could this happen on X?" The answer is yes.

 

If the OP is really asking "WILL this happen on X?" The answer is no one knows.

[QE2_Fan]

Maybe cause I'm not far up the points ladder yet, but aren't any perks nice to have but shouldn't be the deciding factor in choosing a cruise? I would think people continually book the same line as they enjoy the ships, meals, entertainment etc rather than on receiving free internet minute or removal thereof. The cruise lines can change the loyalty offers at any time and will do so based on their (not our) business plan....I suppose as long as you get something is better than nothing. Sorry just think loyalty schemes sre overrated and I refuse to let them lead my holiday decisions. Just my 10cents, appreciate it is probably a minority perspective!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited September 2, 2014 by QE2_Fan

[emcee207]

It will be interesting what changes are on the way for Oceania, along with Regent, if the sale to NCL goes through....they are in advanced talks right now.

 

 

Interesting. I was not aware NCL was negotiating to purchase Oceania and Regent.

[Iamcruzin]

I just read the post. I would give up free laundry in a minute for the upgrades they are offering, not to mention the free nights when you move from one tier to another.

 

I think people don't look at what is added (they just expect that and feel that they are entitled to more and more), they only look at what was taken away. In this case, I think the upgrades and free nights more than make up for the laundry and internet, at least it would for me.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting but it appears to me that you are paying for the upgrade. At any rate they were only giving you one free bag of laundry. Princess has unlimited laundry once you hit elite. Now that's something I know would be missed on that line if they decided to remove it.

[CruisingChick]

I also don't care that much about the laundry, but the free internet minutes with being Elite+ are a great perk in being able to keep in touch with back home and our son and family. If Celebrity did away with that we would be VERY UPSET.

Edited September 2, 2014 by CruisingChick

[miched]

Hi Miched,

 

After several months of delays, Azamara announced updates to their Loyalty program (Le Club Voyage). As I also moderate the Azamara forum, I can share with you, that their forum is very hectic today, and the Azamara faithful are very displeased, notably due to the elimination of complimentary Internet & Laundry benefits, amongst other items.

 

Details can be found on the following 2 Azamara threads : http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2095279

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2095624

 

IMO, unless Azamara reconsiders this decision, I agree that it probably benefits Celebrity, as the Captains Club benefits are significantly better - especially after today's "announcement"

 

BTW, I merged the 2 threads on this topic. Hope this is helpful !

 

Thanks Andy. Merging the two really helps explain what the situation is. I see that many have stated it is no big deal until it affects me, and that is why it is a big deal because eventually it may.

 

Many have cruises booked years in advance and convinced others to join them based on the perks, and what they have experienced on their current cruise. I am sure it would be disappointing when you get on board to find that many of those things are no longer provided.

 

Happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌅

[Xport]

About the same as an Elite+ making Zenith.

 

Following is excerpted from a post that I made this morning to one of the related threads on the Azamara forum... As noted here yesterday, the devil is in the detail...

 

-----

 

I had double the Cruise Points necessary to make Discoverer+/Elite+ upon conversion last November but still needed to double those again to make the Discoverer Platinum/Zenith membership levels... I thought that move up to likely be unattainable but I've continued to cruise and--with Celebrity now doing a "double up" on Cruise Points for solos paying the 100% single supplement--now see it as a possibility...

 

With my current travel plans, by this time next year I'll be about 80 cruise days away from Zenith/Discover Plus--sailing in the AquaClass or Concierge Class cabins I choose on Celebrity--but about 160 days away from the move up if I sail Azamara in a balcony stateroom as I have--and will again next February; I'd cancel were it not for the compensatory discounts I got when Journey became disabled in Tokyo so as to cause one sailing to be shortened and one to be fully cancelled--with them...

 

Even if I were to foolishly choose to sail with Azamara exclusively for twice the time--most often at higher prices while giving up my generous Elite+ benefits on Celebrity--to achieve the next level of membership, it is at this point statistically impossible for me to meet the requirement that 50% of Cruise Points be earned with Azamara to qualify for so-called "Free Days"... The alleged benefit is specious for many but especially so for those who have already shown very substantive allegiance to and have the most significant cruise histories with Azamara and Celebrity; the requirements associated with moving to the highest tier are quantum...

 

The benefit costing numbers that Joel shared with us yesterday left me incredulous... Not only do they improperly combine episodic spend on "Free Days"--the highest priced component of the revised program--as if they'll actually incur the most significant ones anytime soon [if at all]--but they understate [not seriously as the benefits are so paltry] those, like internet subsidies, that are recurrent [it takes a whole lot more than one cruise to move from membership level to membership level but it may be okay as they take credit in their costing for a few things that most will never use]... The Financial Analyst who prepared this stuff--at least as it's been presented to us--should be fired! It would be laughable if not so tragically ill-conceived/poorly reasoned [and now it's memorialized on the web for all to see; I sure wouldn't point it out--as an example of my best work--if seeking a job]...

 

The model as presented only really works--somewhat--for those affluent passengers who are just starting their cruise history now and who stay with them... They'll desperately need those guests to fill their ships as their veteran "fans" defect to greener/more appreciative pastures... And I suspect that Azamara will quickly lose their newly attracted audience as it will soon become apparent that there are far better, more realistic loyalty programs elsewhere...

 

-----

 

Most of Azamara's clientele are those--like me--who move between Azamara and Celebrity... Some--who now cruise virtually exclusively with Azamara--have very significant Celebrity histories... And those who have sailed with Azamara exclusively, haven't been sailing very long so as to have attained higher levels of tier membership status in Le Club Voyage...

 

With Azamara still in its infancy--the line has only been around since 2007 or so--the fact is that the signature/most tangible benefit of the revised LCV program--"Free Days"--is virtually unattainable [if at all] for those now at the highest membership tiers [Elite+/Zenith on Celebrity; Discoverer +/Discoverer Platinum on Azamara] no matter how much one sails with Azamara... And Azamara's "Free Days" feature won't really kick in anytime soon--then at a fairly modest level; the benefit ramps up based upon attainment of progressive tier levels--in a tangible way for those with comparatively short cruise histories and little/none of it on Celebrity...

 

It's no wonder that those who have been most faithful to the combined lines are upset at the prospect of losing the existing laundry allowances [not materially different than those offered through Captain's Club] and internet benefits [packages will be available at a discount based upon membership tier but there will be no "free" time under the revised program] as they have lost much and have nothing--absolutely nothing beyond a wallet reach--to anticipate...

 

Dan Hanrahan created full reciprocity between Celebrity and Azamara when he served as leader of both--to the point of implementing a shared loyalty accounting system--with the hope that guests would "move over" to their boutique, usually higher priced, line but so as to not create impediments to sailing either interchangeably... I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time...

 

Don't know if it has any substance but there is an attorney--who sails Celebrity/Azamara--who is alleging that the LCV revisions and take-aways may be regarded as fraudulent for those who booked in good faith with different expectations based upon past practice...

Edited September 2, 2014 by Xport

[ECCruise]

Thanks Andy. Merging the two really helps explain what the situation is. I see that many have stated it is no big deal until it affects me, and that is why it is a big deal because eventually it may.

 

Many have cruises booked years in advance and convinced others to join them based on the perks, and what they have experienced on their current cruise. I am sure it would be disappointing when you get on board to find that many of those things are no longer provided.

 

Happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌅

 

I completely agree.

We have 8 cruises booked and deposited, extending through mid-2016. They were chosen for a variety of factors, including itinerary, price and amenities, one of which is the Loyalty rewards. Since we often travel in 30-60 day blocks, both the internet reward and the laundry reward are important to us.

 

Azamara not only shot themselves in the foot on this one, they created lots of ill will, some of which was already festering with the call center changes and cancellation of nearly 4 months of booking time (in one block) due to charters. We had considered 2 bookings with them, but between high per diems and less return, will now pass.

 

And now Oceania, another line that we are fond of, is going to fall under the NCL umbrella. Sure was an active 24 hours in CruiseWorld :)

[Iamcruzin]

Maybe cause I'm not far up the points ladder yet, but aren't any perks nice to have but shouldn't be the deciding factor in choosing a cruise? I would think people continually book the same line as they enjoy the ships, meals, entertainment etc rather than on receiving free internet minute or removal thereof. The cruise lines can change the loyalty offers at any time and will do so based on their (not our) business plan....I suppose as long as you get something is better than nothing. Sorry just think loyalty schemes sre overrated and I refuse to let them lead my holiday decisions. Just my 10cents, appreciate it is probably a minority perspective!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree. We are Platinum on Princess but have yet to sail as Platinum because their itineraries for the Caribbean didn't fit out needs which is why we tried Celebrity. We are looking at Bermuda for our next cruise and are considering Celebrity as well as NCL, which we have never sailed on. We may return to Princess after that cruise if they have a better price and itinerary than other lines. The cruise lines hope that passengers buy into these programs but the way they keep changing the benefits I think eventually people will just get fed up and book whatever line offers the best itinerary and best cruise experience. There have been many threads on this board about cuts in quality and services but yet these people who complain are still loyal to the cruise line. If you are unhappy with the perks or cuts then it's time to give another line a try.

[Xport]

There have been many threads on this board about cuts in quality and services but yet these people who complain are still loyal to the cruise line. If you are unhappy with the perks or cuts then it's time to give another line a try.

 

These same trends are prevalent on most forums... I tend to scan them all--especially Princess, HAL, and Cunard--and many of the comments there are as critical, if not more so, as those that are posted to the Celebrity Forum...

 

Some of it is understandable; times and economic conditions change and we must--like it or not--change with/adapt to them... Searching for the perfect premium mass market line these days might just be as fruitful as pursuit of the Holy Grail!

 

Oftentimes, the devil that one does know--no matter how much one might complain about them--is regarded as better/safer than the devil that one doesn't know... It's human nature...

[NLH Arizona]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting but it appears to me that you are paying for the upgrade. At any rate they were only giving you one free bag of laundry. Princess has unlimited laundry once you hit elite. Now that's something I know would be missed on that line if they decided to remove it.

Yes, you are correct, the upgrades are $199 per person, opposed to what the real price difference would be. Yes, it was only one bag of laundry, probably worth $25 or $30 to the passenger. What you are not paying for (other than if you figure the cost of cruising on the line in general)is the comp nights when you reach the next tier, which would be 2, 4, 6 or 10 depending on which tier you move into. In addition they get a quarterly 10 percent discount on select sailings and 3 to 10 percent on board booking discount, plus $200 OBC. None of these things were in their program prior.

[NLH Arizona]

Don't know if it has any substance but there is an attorney--who sails Celebrity/Azamara--who is alleging that the LCV revisions and take-aways may be regarded as fraudulent for those who booked in good faith with different expectations based upon past practice...

Here we go again, with the lawsuit talk. Remember how many said that Celebrity was breaking the law, committing bait and switch, etc., when they changed the Captain's Club and look how wrong they were. Anyone can cancel their cruises if they don't like the changes, but like Celebrity, I doubt many will. They think if they threaten to leave, Azamara will crush under their feet and revert back to the old program. It didn't work for Celebrity and I don't think it will work for Azamara. Edited September 2, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[ECCruise]

Here we go again, with the lawsuit talk. Remember how many said that Celebrity was breaking the law, committing bait and switch, etc., when they changed the Captain's Club and look how wrong they were. Anyone can cancel their cruises if they don't like the changes, but like Celebrity, I doubt many will. They think if they threaten to leave, Azamara will crush under their feet and revert back to the old program. It didn't work for Celebrity and I don't think it will work for Azamara.

 

Sure worked with RCCL in 2009, though!

[richsea]

Interesting. I was not aware NCL was negotiating to purchase Oceania and Regent.

 

It seems that it is official:

http://www.seatrade-insider.com/news/news-headlines/its-official-norwegian-is-acquiring-prestige-in-$3bn-deal.html

[NLH Arizona]

Sure worked with RCCL in 2009, though!

I guess they learned since then, because it sure didn't work well with Celebrity - even though many complained to leave; their ships are still full and there were no changes to the new Captain's Club program.

[CruisingChick]

I guess they learned since then, because it sure didn't work well with Celebrity - even though many complained to leave; their ships are still full and there were no changes to the new Captain's Club program.

 

What's wrong with the new Captain's Club program? They didn't take anything away to my knowledge, did they?

[NLH Arizona]

What's wrong with the new Captain's Club program? They didn't take anything away to my knowledge, did they?

I never said there was anything wrong with the new Captain's Club program, as a matter of fact, I was very complimentary of it when it was first announced. But if you remember, a whole lot of folks complained about the changes and that things were taken away from them after they booked their cruises (conversation points, point differences in tiers, how far away they were before to a certain tier, calling it bait and switch, etc.) and some threatened lawsuits and to leave Celebrity. Same thing as one poster was suggesting that Azamara folks do, because when they booked those perks were there and now they are gone. I guess if a bag of laundry and internet minutes are why one chooses to cruise with a line, they would certainly be upset. I for one, cruise for the enjoyment of it.

 

On a shelfish level, I would hope a lot do leave Azamara, because then possibly the prices will go down and I would start booking on it and then I could scrap Crystal for Azamara for some cruises.

Edited September 2, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[ECCruise]

I guess they learned since then, because it sure didn't work well with Celebrity - even though many complained to leave; their ships are still full and there were no changes to the new Captain's Club program.

 

Huh?

 

The new CC is all positive for benefits. New levels at Elite + and Zenith. Free specialty coffees, restaurant discounts and more internet minutes for Elite +. A Myriad of benefits for Zenith, the best loyalty program in the industry.

 

A bit different than removing Diamond lounge access for Diamond members on RCCL in 2009. Yes, you are right, they did learn their lesson...constant pushback from RCCL cruisers made them completely revamp the program, FAST, first with a evening "Diamond event" with free wine and champagne (and discounts on other drinks), then adding Diamond lounges on virtually all ships that didn't have them and allowing Diamond access.

 

And ALL ships are sailing full, some at higher load factors than Celebrity. Well, we shall see if Azamara continues to sail full. :)

With AZ, you are not dealing with the vacation traveler who will put up with this. You are dealing with a very well traveled, very educated customer who knows their options and will exercise them. And many who have spent well into the six figures sailing AZ and who take it as a slap in the face.

[NLH Arizona]

Huh?

 

The new CC is all positive for benefits. New levels at Elite + and Zenith. Free specialty coffees, restaurant discounts and more internet minutes for Elite +. A Myriad of benefits for Zenith, the best loyalty program in the industry.

 

A bit different than removing Diamond lounge access for Diamond members on RCCL in 2009. Yes, you are right, they did learn their lesson...constant pushback from RCCL cruisers made them completely revamp the program, FAST, first with a evening "Diamond event" with free wine and champagne (and discounts on other drinks), then adding Diamond lounges on virtually all ships that didn't have them and allowing Diamond access.

 

And ALL ships are sailing full, some at higher load factors than Celebrity. Well, we shall see if Azamara continues to sail full. :)

With AZ, you are not dealing with the vacation traveler who will put up with this. You are dealing with a very well traveled, very educated customer who knows their options and will exercise them. And many who have spent well into the six figures sailing AZ and who take it as a slap in the face.

I guess you forgot about all the unhappy folks last November, December and January who continued to complain about the new Captain's Club program. Calling it bait and switch, threatening lawsuits because they were two cruises away from Elite and after the changes they were four cruises away, etc. If you like, I can go back and pull up some of the 100's of posts for you. How fast we forget about how upset folks were about the changes and I'm sure in 3 or 4 months, it will be the same for Azamara. They might lose a few customers, those that only cruised for the laundry and internet, but new ones will replace them. I personally would take the new perks any day over laundry and internets, but then I don't cruise for perks.

 

Yes, they will exercise their options, with a little help from those suggesting that they look at what happend at Royal Caribbean.

Edited September 2, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[Andy]

Here we go again, with the lawsuit talk. Remember how many said that Celebrity was breaking the law, committing bait and switch, etc., when they changed the Captain's Club and look how wrong they were. Anyone can cancel their cruises if they don't like the changes, but like Celebrity, I doubt many will. They think if they threaten to leave, Azamara will crush under their feet and revert back to the old program. It didn't work for Celebrity and I don't think it will work for Azamara.

 

Hi NLH,

 

I agree that any talk of a lawsuit seems like utter nonsense to me. If anyone is THAT unhappy, they can always cancel. Frankly, I wouldn't cancel what would likely be a wonderful cruise experience over losing free internet minutes and laundry, but that's just me.

 

As for whether Azamara will reconsider this decision ? I suspect they may take a look at doing *something* to settle folks down. Who knows if they will actually revisit the changes.... but for the sake of their many loyal guests, I hope they do !

Edited September 2, 2014 by Host Andy

[NLH Arizona]

Hi NLH,

 

I agree that any talk of a lawsuit seems like utter nonsense to me. If anyone is THAT unhappy, they can always cancel. Frankly, I wouldn't cancel what would likely be a wonderful cruise experience over losing free internet minutes and laundry, but that's just me.

 

As for whether Azamara will reconsider this decision ? I suspect they will have to take a look at doing *something* to settle folks down. Who knows if they will revisit the changes.... but for the sake of their many loyal guests, I hope they do !

Andy, that is what I don't understand. On this site and over at Azamara, why people have to complain and threaten lawsuits and then they still continue to cruise with a line. As one poster said, some paid six figures for their cruising experience with Azamara and they are that upset about possibly a $100 worth of perks. I don't get it, as they can make more than that up in the onboard discounts or pay for it with their $200 onboard booking OBC.

 

I'm wondering if they will put in a better suite package, just like Celebrity has, offering internet minutes and laundry to the suite passengers.

 

I think one of the telling tales on the Azamara site was this comment from a poster: all of your examples under the new scheme assume that the guest spends money. DUH!

 

I don't think their loyal guest will leave. After they calm down, they will see that the Azamara cruising experience is worth more than $100 in perks. And if they just look at some of the new perks, they can make that up on each cruise plus more. Remember those on here who were never going to cruise with Celebrity again, after the Captain's Club changes, well they are still here.

Edited September 2, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[ECCruise]

Sometimes it's just not all about the money.