"service" animals-where do we draw the line?

[cle-guy]

There was a true service dog on the cruise with a legitimate handicapped individual. The dog was a black lab and acted like a true service dog. Then we had this small thing in a carriage with an older female adult. Service dog? What type of service other than dining with her? Oh, a meal companion to make sure the food was edible...:rolleyes:

 

This lady must live on a ship, or there's a whole lot of people that do this?

 

Was the dog a fluffy white pomeranian? It was on my Connie TA, and I've seen them on at least 2 other of my cruses, last year on the Eclipse TA to Southampton, and can't recall the other.

[sdnich]

Leave the animals at home!! Or even better just stay home with them!!!

[sdnich]

But on a serious note I am highly allergic to dogs and cats!! Is there any way of finding out if there is a dog in the room before me so they can do a deep cleaning ???

[yoj13]

Leave the animals at home!! Or even better just stay home with them!!!

 

 

Well said!!!!

[Snit13]

I am curious. Do these non service dogs have to have papers from vets certifying they have had all of their shots and are not carrying any diseases?

I read recently that some dogs are carriers and can infect humans. Senior moment so don't recall what germs or where I read it. Not allergic to the best of my knowledge but find it extremely offensive if not a certified, card carrying service dog. Does the ship have an area where they are taken when nature calls? Hopefully they are not going in the cabins or in public areas. Yuck

[alexspepa]

I am curious. Do these non service dogs have to have papers from vets certifying they have had all of their shots and are not carrying any diseases?

I read recently that some dogs are carriers and can infect humans. Senior moment so don't recall what germs or where I read it. Not allergic to the best of my knowledge but find it extremely offensive if not a certified, card carrying service dog. Does the ship have an area where they are taken when nature calls? Hopefully they are not going in the cabins or in public areas. Yuck

 

there is no such thing as a certified, card-carrying service dog as far as the federal government goes - the ADA is specific in stating that service animals do not need certification.

My state NC actually does require certification, but the reason is so a disabled person has recourse when denied service; in fact it is a misdemeanor in NC to deny service to a disabled person accompianed by a real Service Animal:

 

It is unlawful to disguise a dog as an assistance dog, or to deprive a visually impaired person, a hearing impaired person, or a mobility impaired person of any rights granted the person pursuant to G.S. 168-4.2 through G.S. 168-4.4, or of any rights or privileges granted the general public with respect to being accompanied by dogs, or to charge any fee for the use of the assistance dog. Violation of this section shall be a Class 3 misdemeanor.

 

I like the fact that the NC law also notes it is a misdemeanor to use a fake assistance dog as well as a violation to deny service to legitimate disabled folks. Other states have similar laws that make it illegal to deny service - in other words the police can arrest someone for using either action - disguising a non-service animal or denying service to a person with a legitimate service animal. Under the ADA the only recourse is civil action - the police cannot act unless there is a state law supplementing the ADA.

Edited May 19, 2015 by alexspepa

[Snit13]

By certified I meant ADA guide dogs as I see with blind owners. I was of the impression that these dogs were trained and certified. Guess I was wrong.

[DirtyDawg]

But on a serious note I am highly allergic to dogs and cats!! Is there any way of finding out if there is a dog in the room before me so they can do a deep cleaning ???

 

Good question. I have no idea if any cruise line keeps that data or if they do if they are legally allowed to tell you. Before your next cruise contact the line beforehand and ask them. But I suspect they will not tell you and you'll end up being the human dog and cat detector when you walk into the cabin.

[alexspepa]

By certified I meant ADA guide dogs as I see with blind owners. I was of the impression that these dogs were trained and certified. Guess I was wrong.

 

Guide dogs are highly trained animals, and the school they graduate from may provide a certificate, but the ADA does not require such, and prohibits asking for such.

 

Some of the leading Service Dog training schools, such as CCI who train Service Dogs for disabled people with mobility issues are actively campaigning for exactly the kind of certification you are asking about.

[villauk]

Funny you should mention that. We were just on the Eclipse and there was a big dog, German Shepard? One day he was at the pool sitting on his own chair and even jumped into the pool (it wasn't a sea day so the chair wasn't a big issue, but it was generally an odd situation). It was all very odd, we saw him a number of times, he never wore one of the service animal jackets, he was always on a longer leash pulling his owner around. When we saw him in St. Marten he was trying to pull his owner to the ocean and the owner jerked him back really hard (it was sad to watch). The day at the pool he looked really really hot. His owner was splashing him from the pool and he finally jumped in. The dog also started chasing a kids ball and barked a few times, etc. It really did not seem like normal service dog behavior to me (or at least maybe the least trained service dog I have ever seen).

 

In the pool :eek:! What stroke was he doing...the doggy paddle :D :p (sorry, couldn't resist :cool:).

 

Were those pool towels he was lying on over the sunbed?

[Snit13]

Guide dogs are highly trained animals, and the school they graduate from may provide a certificate, but the ADA does not require such, and prohibits asking for such.

 

Some of the leading Service Dog training schools, such as CCI who train Service Dogs for disabled people with mobility issues are actively campaigning for exactly the kind of certification you are asking about.

 

That is what I was talking about.

 

I see dogs at Home Depot, Publix super market, and other places that are not trained service dogs and everyone is afraid to say anthing to the people with the dogs attached to them, so to speak. I guess the folks with allergies have no rights only the dog owners.

[kborth]

100% agree with you .

 

Agree. On Constellation TA every morning there was a woman in the Oceanview with her dog in a stroller, turned my stomach. If I walked into a dining establishment and was seated next to a dog in a stroller I would leave, can't do that on a ship and quarters were very close. I love dogs just not when I am eating a meal on a ship. What is the matter with Celebrity?

[keesar]

Agree. On Constellation TA every morning there was a woman in the Oceanview with her dog in a stroller, turned my stomach. If I walked into a dining establishment and was seated next to a dog in a stroller I would leave, can't do that on a ship and quarters were very close. I love dogs just not when I am eating a meal on a ship. What is the matter with Celebrity?

 

There was a woman with a small dog in a stroller on the Silhouette. She was feeding the dog from the buffet! I wonder if it is the same person.

 

This was obviously not a service animal and has no business being in the Oceanview Cafe.

[jayoldschool]

This is obviously becoming a regular occurrence, and is turning off many of its regular valued customers.

 

Celebrity... what are you going to do to stop this charade?

Edited May 19, 2015 by jayoldschool

[cle-guy]

Agree. On Constellation TA every morning there was a woman in the Oceanview with her dog in a stroller, turned my stomach. If I walked into a dining establishment and was seated next to a dog in a stroller I would leave, can't do that on a ship and quarters were very close. I love dogs just not when I am eating a meal on a ship. What is the matter with Celebrity?

 

Celebrity... what are you going to do to stop this charade?

 

Nothing, they're simply following the laws and regulations. So long as the woman presented a document from her Doctor establishing her dog as an emotional support animal, they have to let her on. Not under the ADA regulations (which don't cover emotional support animals) but rather the Airline Carriers Act and the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988.

 

I actually do not think there is any law that REQUIRES crusie lines to accept animals, since they are neither a landlord nor airline, but I think they have decided as in industry that if animals can fly, they can also ride a ship, again to avoid any issues with legal ramifications.

 

Celebrity is simply erring on the side of caution, to avoid potential lawsuits from those who travel with service animals under doctor's prescription (which is all thats needed, and of course we know this can be done online by anyone for a small fee). The intent of the various related laws are to make access EASY for those how need it, unfortunately, the openness of the regulations, allows for lots of abuse, though without it, those who DO need the animals, it makes their lives work.

 

Celebrity is also likely well-aware a large population of theirs is of a mature age, and find many of those folks have such animals and arrangements, and of course are working to keep them as customers. Clearly the doggies in the stroller is a great customer, as so many of us have sailed with this person.

 

However what X SHOULD be doing, is if they see a handler feeding their animal anywhere besides in their cabin, they need to address such situations, as their own rules prohibit feeding animals form the table when traveling with such animals. The rules prohibit the animals from sitting on chairs, swimming in the pool, and walking on the grass on S class ships. But this falls into that "black hole" as does balcony smokers, where sure we can alert X to the issues then by the time X gets there to observe, be that in 30 seconds or 30 minutes, they themselves may not observe the behavior, therefore can say nothing to the person with the animal - at that point its your word against the animal owners word, and who is X to flip the coin and determine who was correct barring any other physical or photographic evidence.

 

Although I've yet to sail a line other than Celebrity I have to assume that all lines have the same small percentage of their cruisers who do the same thing, so it's not so much a Celebrity Problem, as a federal regulatory issue.

Edited May 19, 2015 by cle-guy

[cle-guy]

Another thing regarding Emotional Support and Service animals, one of Celebrity's rules is that the animal is not allowed to be left alone in the cabin, which for many service animals makes sense - animal needs to be with its owner providing the support/service.

 

However, perhaps some of these little dogs we see out in strollers and such, do things more like alert for epilepsy, or alert to night tremmors or sleep apnea. Theses issues are either of the nature that they rarely occur and any dog can be trained, or at night and because of the rules, they have to take the dog out of the cabin with them, even though the dog does its "service" only at night when sleeping.

 

I just watched a documentary about a guy who has such sever paranoia and anxiety, that his dog has been trained to detect the income of an anxiety attack, and stops, which clues the owner in to just stop and breathe for 10 seconds, which usually fixes the onset. Also, the dog was trained to continuously look left right AND BEHIND, thus giving its owner the security of not having to be paranoid about who as behind him, as his dog as watching that for him. It was pretty impressive stuff.

 

This animal is not supported under the ADA as it does not perform "work" for its owner, yet it's clear the dog has a HUGE impact in its owners well-being as an Emotional Support Animal.

[Azulann]

There was a woman with a small dog in a stroller on the Silhouette. She was feeding the dog from the buffet! I wonder if it is the same person.

 

This was obviously not a service animal and has no business being in the Oceanview Cafe.

 

OK, just how many women with dogs in strollers are there on Celebrity ships? For God's sake, do these little puff balls also sleep in the bed with their owners each night? Do they pee on the carpet? Has anyone ever talked to these stroller dog owners?

Has anyone asked them why they bring their dog to dinner in a stroller? Can't the dog walk?

It is nuts and I would ask these women for their papers on their dogs for shots, and keep them away from me, I have allergies around pet hair!

:eek::eek::eek:

Edited May 19, 2015 by Azulann

[Hlitner]

Just wonder what the Captain would do if they hear a "dog overboard" cry. Boggles the mind. And we do give kudos to the Australian government for telling Johnny Depp to get his dogs out of Australia or they would be killed! So Depp had to ship them back to the states. It is about time that somebody stood up to those that that break the rules. We strongly support the idea of real Service Dogs but think that those that have Faux Service Dogs need to be sent to the pound with their animals. We have one friend who has a real service dog and she is the most vocal about cracking down on the phonies that use the "Service Dog" label to simply bring along their pet.

 

As to the lady with the fuzz ball in a stroller, not sure if its the same but about 4-5 years ago we met a lady with such an animal on a RCI cruise. Her sister was on the same cruise and told us that her sister was a total nut case that took her dog everywhere and treated the animal like her child. And it was not a true service dog. The sisters had nothing to do with each other during the cruise.

 

Hank

Edited May 19, 2015 by Hlitner

[deliver42]

It is my understanding that it is a federal law that forbids anyone to question whether or not the dog is an actual service dog, be it emotional or not.

[NLH Arizona]

By certified I meant ADA guide dogs as I see with blind owners. I was of the impression that these dogs were trained and certified. Guess I was wrong.

No, but there are some legislators and groups that are pushing for this, since the poser dogs are increasing all the time and they are putting the real service dogs at risk, since the posers are not usually trained and can go at a real service dog if they come into contact.

[cle-guy]

It is my understanding that it is a federal law that forbids anyone to question whether or not the dog is an actual service dog, be it emotional or not.

 

Bear in mind the law differs on Service Animals covered by ADA and Emotional Support or Therapy dogs who are not covered by ADA.

 

The protocol is an organization may ask 2 questions when confronted with a person with a service animal under that ADA laws:

1) Is that a Service animal?

2) What work does the animal perform on your behalf?

 

The organization MAY NOT request any sort of documentation.

 

An emotional support animal does not perform any WORK therefore is not covered under ADA, but as in my prior reply, reverts back to certain other laws. Anyone invoking "Emotional Support" or "Therapy animal" WILL be required to provide documentation, which includes a prescription/letter indicating the requirement of the dog, the particular mental diagnosis as recognized by standard mental health boards.

 

Also the law only binds COMPANIES from further questioning, it does not bar individuals from asking questions of the person with the animal, but on the other hand nor does that person have to even acknowledge your question of them about their animal, much less get into their medical history with an individual.

 

And frankly, I would think continued questioning by an individual to one with an animal might be considered harassment, and perhaps the person asking questions may in fact be guilty of harassment.

 

Even the cops if called on an individual with an animal in question can't do anything unless an organization were to call for assistance having had in issue with the 2 questions asked.

 

And of course, we all need to realize that these ships travel internationally, so that leads to a whole other issue of what regulations apply. Various lawsuits have been had to invoke ADA standards to ships visiting US ports, but the requirements are not anywhere near as stringent as the general regulations when applied to cruise ships. This is because the law requires "reasonable accommodation" be made, the question then becomes what is reasonable? What expense becomes unreasonable? Do they have to have wheelchair accessible cabins in all cabin categories - does that man the Reflection Suite them must be made fully ADA accessble? No is that answer based on those lawsuits..... the lawsuits have basically called for a limited number of cabins in each major category, i.e a SkySuite accessible covers all suites.

Edited May 19, 2015 by cle-guy

[cheryl20772]

Has anyone asked them why they bring their dog to dinner in a stroller? Can't the dog walk?

It is nuts and I would ask these women for their papers on their dogs for shots, and keep them away from me, I have allergies around pet hair!

:eek::eek::eek:

You are possibly safer then, if the pooch is zipped up in a stroller. It can't drop hair or dander in your environment.

 

I'm wondering if Celebrity charges a fee for bringing an animal along. Most hotels that allow it have animal fees... usually increasing with size, and there's a statement to sign for everyone without an animal about the penalty if you sneak one in. Motels don't care what kind of care animal it is do they? They charge regardless if it's a pet or service dog? So Celebrity should too. Would we see less of them if they had to pay?

 

I don't know what's right here. If my support or service depends on a motor chair, do I have to pay more to bring it? Did that motor cycle gang taking their 20 motorcycles on our cruise to Bermuda pay extra for that fun? If the only way I can enjoy a cruise is with my little fur baby, is that really the same thing?

[cle-guy]

You are possibly safer then, if the pooch is zipped up in a stroller. It can't drop hair or dander in your environment.

 

I'm wondering if Celebrity charges a fee for bringing an animal along. Most hotels that allow it have animal fees... usually increasing with size, and there's a statement to sign for everyone without an animal about the penalty if you sneak one in. Motels don't care what kind of care animal it is do they? They charge regardless if it's a pet or service dog? So Celebrity should too. Would we see less of them if they had to pay?

 

I don't know what's right here. If my support or service depends on a motor chair, do I have to pay more to bring it? Did that motor cycle gang taking their 20 motorcycles on our cruise to Bermuda pay extra for that fun? If the only way I can enjoy a cruise is with my little fur baby, is that really the same thing?

 

Celebrity does not charge fees for bringing animals aboard. Many luxury brand hotels are now allowing pets even without fee (JW Marriott, Residence Inn's . Roth Carlton, A-Loft come to mind). The world is turning to pet owners... I have started seeking out pet-friendly hotels when traveling.

 

I doubt a fee would help stave off the issue. Even hotels that do charge a pet fee generally may be $50 to $100. A kennel will cost $40 or so night, so the ship is still a great value $100 versus $40 x 7 = $280.

 

As to the motorcycle clubs you've seen on ships, they book via a group, so likely they do pay somewhat higher fares for those cruises, but they also have lots of other extras included.

 

I honestly don't see anything any more unsanitary about bringing a dog onto a ship into a cabin, that people ho bring bicycles, ride all over the dirty roads, drag them on the ship, up elevators, then dirty up the cabin carpet with them. I don't think a pet is any more unsanitary than a baby in diapers running around the pool, or sleeping on the sofa.

 

And an interesting aside, dog's saliva is an antibacterial, so they can actually be cleaner than we are!

 

As an aside, I always see people quote "health regulations' prohibit animals. Frankly, I've not seen this codified in any ordinances I have been relevant to. It's always just been the policy of an organization that determines this. I'd be interested in reading any health codes out there that do prohibit animals in food establishments.

Edited May 20, 2015 by cle-guy

[alexspepa]

Y Motels don't care what kind of care animal it is do they? They charge regardless if it's a pet or service dog? So Celebrity should too. Would we see less of them if they had to pay?

 

I'm sorry but this s simply not true...the ADA says:

A place of public accommodation or public entity may not ask an individual with a disability to pay a surcharge, even if people accompanied by pets are required to pay fees.

 

In addition many states have laws that make it a crime to deny admittance or charge an extra fee to a person with a Service Animal.

Edited May 20, 2015 by alexspepa

[Sparkle 123]

These dogs in strollers seem to be a much more common sight on cruise ships lately. We recently cruised on the Allure TA. There were 5 "service dogs" on board and 2 of those were in strollers!!

They had a special grass box on the promenade deck to do their business in.

I did see one of the pets in the Promenade cafe and folks were stroking it then helping themselves to cookies:eek::rolleyes: