Watch your cards!

[cle-guy]

No, I did not miss your point at all.

No "mercy" is involved if the account is compromised because the bank insures up front that they will reimburse the entire amount lost in case that should happen.

We have peace of mind knowing that we are fully protected and have no risk of loss when using the debit card to withdraw cash.

 

So the only loss we risk is losing the cash after we withdraw it.

(Now if you are talking about using a debit card as a way to pay for purchases, then that is a different matter entirely and something we don't do.)

 

 

I totally agree with you about using credit cards to pay for purchases, but not as a way to obtain cash.

 

This is simply not not the case with a Debit card. ONLY Credit cards get this protection. You run the risk of someone getting your debit card details before you go to the ATM yourself, and having them clear your account, and as it is a PIN based transaction, the bank will not replenish the funds when you call to alert them of the fraud as they would have if you were using a legitimate credit card and doing cash advances with it that may have been compromised earlier. You will be left to file a police report and rely on the cops who are not going to do anything to chase down a petty ATM thief other than take a report if yo make them.

[varoo]

This is simply not not the case with a Debit card. ONLY Credit cards get this protection. You run the risk of someone getting your debit card details before you go to the ATM yourself, and having them clear your account, and as it is a PIN based transaction, the bank will not replenish the funds when you call to alert them of the fraud as they would have if you were using a legitimate credit card and doing cash advances with it that may have been compromised earlier. You will be left to file a police report and rely on the cops who are not going to do anything to chase down a petty ATM thief other than take a report if yo make them.

It depends on the terms of the debit card you are using and the type of account you set up.

There are many different types of credit card and debit card accounts and different institutions from which they can be obtained.

 

As someone who read the terms that are spelled out right there in black and white on the contract I signed, and also discussed the reasons for wanting this extra account with the bank's manager who also assured me that my account does have such protection for debit card withdrawals, I would trust them over the word of some stranger who posts a contrary opinion on an internet message board.

 

In general I find that some of the information you have posted here has been pretty good cle-guy, but not in this case.

 

It is fine to use a forum such as this one to get different ideas and learn about different experiences from different people.

 

But when it comes to such financial matters, it is only prudent for those involved to check out the terms that apply to their own particular situation for themselves, not rely on the word of any of us who post here as our circumstances may be quite different from theirs.

 

[RhondaPerr]

I don't use debit cards for anything, but one of my last cruises I used a credit card in Aruba and within 15 minutes, received notification that there were questionable charges in New York City and New Jersey. I had notified my cc company that we would be away, and so it was immediately flagged! In Europe we used cash, or prepaid everything! The truth is, you can do everything right and still fall victim!

[ptrpanpens]

Bank of america has a zero liability clause for debit card fraud. I had my card compromised at a restaurant in LA and by the time I got home the bank had already contacted me about fraudulent charges in Canada of approximately $600 and had canceled the card and reissued a new one. The money was returned to my account immediately and I never suffered any loss.

 

This is not to imply that you shouldnt be diligent when withdrawing cash overseas. I never use my debit card for purchases but have frequently withdrawn cash overseas with no problem. However I am very careful when and where I do it and would only use a bank facility ATM. Plus I monitor my account several times a day just in case and have a dedicated bank account for travel.

 

There is quite a difference in rate for purchasing foreign currency in the US versus overseas so I try to limit the currency I buy here.

[junetraveler2014]

I'm a merchant and accept cards for payments.

 

I've had a bad card come in, then realized it, and offered to provide MasterCard with the person's name and photograph from my security cameras.

 

They said they wound't be necessary, I asked why not catch him?

 

Their answer was it just takes so much manpower and time to handle all the cases, and police reports need filed and followed up on.

 

Credit card companies just charge the consumer higher interest rates and us merchants higher processing fees to ensure they are never out of hand. And they do a god job too of shoving such fraudulent activity back to the merchant to verify, so it's often the merchant gets the short stick. If we didn't have a signed sales slip, replied within the timelines required, failed to add in extra verification steps like ZIP code or CID if asked, any little forgotten dotted I or crossed T, we the merchant just lose the sale they take it from our account.

It is not easy to be a business owner. You work hard for every Penney and there is always someone trying to take it from you. It is disgusting how one has to jump through hoops to keep what is theirs.. But until these crimes are treated as such, taking out the best protection or practicing the best prevention, that is all we have . You always have to have that back-up plan when traveling or in your case...in business!

[blindrid]

With all of this fraudulent behavior running rampant I'm surprised that travelers checks are practically extinct. I still purchase them and cash them in on board as needed but when I go to the bank and ask for them I get a strange look from the teller.

 

Because of the huge counterfeit problem. We quit selling them moons ago.

[goodycruising]

Not always practical, but it does say something for going to the teller and taking out the cash over the counter. Our banks charge about $2 - $2.50 for this.

 

We also try to go to the Post Office when travelling around Australia as we feel that is a safer option for us. We can use several of our Bank Eftpos cards to withdraw cash there. (NAB charges us no fees for this, some of the others charge a couple of dollars)

 

We also like the Australia Post multi currency prepaid credit card to keep our holiday spending separate from our normal bank account. We leave a photocopy of the barcode on the back of the card and our friends can deposit money at any branch which will be available straight away.

 

I love threads like this, as even though we are talking about different countries, the safe use of cards is something we can all learn more about. Sometimes I feel like we have too many different cards and accounts, but then at other times it is good to spread the risk around :)

Edited February 22, 2015 by goodycruising

[uktog]

When in Miami last Nov every server brought a hand held printer/card reader to the table whenever we used a credit card. Our card was scanned on the device and a receipt was printed out. The card never left our sight. We were told that was the law in Fl.

 

happy cruising

 

We have been using these for several years now in Europe and Australasia they are the way to go. Surprised it's taken so long elsewhere

Edited February 22, 2015 by uktog

[cle-guy]

It depends on the terms of the debit card you are using and the type of account you set up.

There are many different types of credit card and debit card accounts and different institutions from which they can be obtained.

 

As someone who read the terms that are spelled out right there in black and white on the contract I signed, and also discussed the reasons for wanting this extra account with the bank's manager who also assured me that my account does have such protection for debit card withdrawals, I would trust them over the word of some stranger who posts a contrary opinion on an internet message board.

 

In general I find that some of the information you have posted here has been pretty good cle-guy, but not in this case.

 

It is fine to use a forum such as this one to get different ideas and learn about different experiences from different people.

 

But when it comes to such financial matters, it is only prudent for those involved to check out the terms that apply to their own particular situation for themselves, not rely on the word of any of us who post here as our circumstances may be quite different from theirs.

 

 

I'd be curious to learn what bank and what account type you have that the bank will automatically put back into your account cash that you as the account holder simply call the bank and say, "Oh I don't recognize this charge" as related to a PIN based debit card transaction.

 

It would certainly be a great bit of information for the masses, as this type of security os definitely NOT the norm relative to debit cards. You would be providing a great bit of help to many by providing bank name and account type. It is certainly possible that there are some banks out there who are looking to be more customer service oriented and providing extra protections the they by law do not have to. My bank, KeyBank, is not among them.

 

IF the debit card we are talking about has a VISA or Mastercard logo on it, and IF the transaction was made without the entering of a PIN (which can not be done at an ATM, only Cash advances in person for example) THEN it would be afforded the protections of the VISA/MASTERCARD network. But if a PIN is used, those protections go away, unless your bank is different than the majority of banks.

 

 

Some facts from the Better Business Bureau Website:

I would clarify there is a VERY LIMITED protection on Debit cards, if you notify the bank within 48 hours of an improper post the customer eats the 1st $50 of the loss, if you take more then 48 hours, you pay the 1st $500, if you wait more than 60 days, you lose all protection. Banks can also take up to 10 days to put money back to your account if you are within the timelines noted, which means you can be bouncing checks all over the place, or not have access to needed cash.

 

Credit card, the most you are liable for is $50, and you have up to 6 months to lodge a dispute, at which time the disputed transaction is immediately suspended in your account, so you do not have to pay for it.

Edited February 22, 2015 by cle-guy

[az_tchr]

Wow has this gotten sidetracked.

 

The basics - Obtaining cash - using a debit card costs you a transaction fee of anything from ZERO to about $5USD plus a foreign exchange fee of generally either ZERO or 3%.

 

A credit card costs the same as the above PLUS a cash advance fee of usually 5%.

 

This one is a no brainer. ALL US cards must be chip and pin within the next 10 months! Get one now and they are actually impossible to skim if you disable the magnetic strip! A merchant can still manually enter the numbers - grumble, grumble - but safe.

 

As the poster above stated - with debit cards you have a VERY short time to report fraud - with most companies working with you if overseas, but with credit cards you generally have 6 months.

 

One caution - Pin numbers outside the US must be 4 digits!

 

As for credit cards issuers are responsible for fraud - unlike MOST, not all, debit cards. Obviouls cheaper as often no cost to use, ZERO to 3% exchange fee and usually a 1% rebate along with insurance, extended warranties.

 

In speaking with Chase the show NO fraud with chip and pin cards regarding skimming either type if the strip is disabled. NONE. I simply request new cards on my return to the US so I have the strip again.

[cle-guy]

This one is a no brainer. ALL US cards must be chip and pin within the next 10 months! Get one now and they are actually impossible to skim if you disable the magnetic strip! A merchant can still manually enter the numbers - grumble, grumble - but safe.

 

Not all banks are issuing chipped cards in the US, the majority of the big ones are, but smaller banks and credit unions may not be doing so. It's estimated that by end of 2015 70% of Credit cards will be chipped, and 41% of debit cards will be chipped.

 

And once CHIP cards are out, merchants have the ability to deny acceptance of the CHIP card if the CHIP can not be read -- that is merchants are allowed to say "NO I won't hand key this card data nor will I swipe the magnetic strip" this is because VI/MC is putting a rule forth that will penalize merchants who fail to use the CHIP technology by not backing any customer disputes that arise out of a card that had a CHIP technology bypassed.

[Iamcruzin]

Mike...you are right! We traveled with a couple and they brought traveler cheques and tried

to cash and the teller brought everyone over to look at such an odd looking peice of paper!

Lol!:D

I grow up on those Karl Malden American Express commercials.That "Don't leave home without them" slogan just stuck with me. I will continue to get them as long as they are available because I don't like carrying a thousand dollars in cash around, especially when you have to part with your personal belonging during airport security checks. I wonder how secure apple pay will be?

Edited February 22, 2015 by Iamcruzin

[cle-guy]

I grow up on those Karl Malden American Express commercials.That "Don't leave home without them" slogan just stuck with me. I will continue to get them as long as they are available because I don't like carrying a thousand dollars in cash around, especially when you have to part with your personal belonging during airport security checks. I wonder how secure apple pay will be?

 

I haven't heard anything about Apple Pay being skimmed.

 

From what I understand in order to use it, one has to enter a finger print on the iphone fingerprint scanner to use it, and Apple Pay uses "tokenization" for each transaction, and doesn't send any account number details.

 

I think Apple Pay is actually slightly more secure than Chip cards are, since it has a biotechnical component to it. And people know immediately when their phone goes missing, so will be far more proactive in notifying their credit card carrier about a lost phone/payment method. A credit card can simply slide out of a wallet to the ground and we may not notice till the next time we go to use that card.

 

Apple pay also sends immediate notification to you that it was used, so if someone does scam you, would will get notified within seconds of the transaction and can react accordingly. Not sure if it can be both email and text, but if you have Apple devices, you now get texts to multiple devices simultaneously (i.e. to iPhone, which may have been stolen, as well as to iPad, desktop and laptop).

 

I used to do Traveler's Checks, but many places I liked to use them stopped taking them as they were far too easy to counterfeit and verify, and have become the Cassette Tape of the payments world, soon to be the VHS tape I think. I do not accept them at my stores.

[patty1955]

We stopped using travelers checks when we found that the only places in Rome that would take them were the Vatican gift shop and the American Express office. Even the Ferrari dealership wouldn't take them (they charged an admission fee)

[Viv0828]

Off topic but I am curious. What (if any) is the difference between an ATM card and a debit card? TIA.

[TravelerThom]

When in Miami last Nov every server brought a hand held printer/card reader to the table whenever we used a credit card. Our card was scanned on the device and a receipt was printed out. The card never left our sight. We were told that was the law in Fl.

Maybe this is a law in Miami. If it is a law in FL, EVERY restaurant we have eaten at in the last three months that we have been in Florida (not in Miami) is in violation.

 

From what I read, as of Oct 2015 " liability for counterfeit fraud will shift to the merchant’s acquirer (the party, often a bank, that facilitates payments for the merchant) if a contact chip card is presented to a retailer that has not adopted the technology. So credit card processors will have a big incentive to promote the technology to all their merchants — or potentially face huge liability." Fuel vendors have an addition two years to adopt the technology.

 

Thom

[fleckle]

Bank of america has a zero liability clause for debit card fraud. I had my card compromised at a restaurant in LA and by the time I got home the bank had already contacted me about fraudulent charges in Canada of approximately $600 and had canceled the card and reissued a new one. The money was returned to my account immediately and I never suffered any loss.

That is exactly the way it worked for friends of ours when their debit card was compromised.

A number of fraudulent purchases were made on the card before they even realized what had happened.

 

Their bank immediately restored all the money to their account and issued them new cards.

 

We stopped carrying large amounts of cash on trips after family members were mugged on a vacation and had all their money stolen. Their credit and debit cards were quickly replaced, but they never recovered the cash, which was a sizable amount to lose.

 

[az_tchr]

Cle - Appreciate your posts. FYI Federal banking laws have required ALL cards be chipped by 10/1/15 or the credit card issuer is responsible for all fraud. The use of magnetic stips is quickly ending. I do not know if credit unions or banks under a certain size are exempt, but the magnetic strips will not be used overseas (The rest of the World) or the USA at the end of 2016 and a card with only a magnitic strip is accepted at under 50% of worldwide locations according to Visa.

 

Not really very hard to find chipped cards today if you are going overseas or to canada or Mexico. FWIW - Chase started changing ALL its cards this week. BofA already started. Am sure the others are in the process.

[hcat]

We only use cash in most ports..unless we know the vendor from past dealings.

 

Credit cards are risky anywhere...had two Chase compromises recently one with Home Depot...maybe second one there as well, First the crooks do a few small test purchases and then up the ante,,,,and they mover very quickly, Chase handled both our situations well

 

also had our BoA Royal C cruise point card compromised...

[RocketMan275]

Cle - Appreciate your posts. FYI Federal banking laws have required ALL cards be chipped by 10/1/15 or the credit card issuer is responsible for all fraud. The use of magnetic stips is quickly ending. I do not know if credit unions or banks under a certain size are exempt, but the magnetic strips will not be used overseas (The rest of the World) or the USA at the end of 2016 and a card with only a magnitic strip is accepted at under 50% of worldwide locations according to Visa.

 

Not really very hard to find chipped cards today if you are going overseas or to canada or Mexico. FWIW - Chase started changing ALL its cards this week. BofA already started. Am sure the others are in the process.

 

The problem is the cards that are currently being issued are not chip and pin. They are chip and signature and still have the magnetic strip. I have two of them. Neither of my card issuers have provided pin numbers. I asked about one and was told I would only need a pin for cash withdrawals which I never do. Maybe pins will be provided later but for now the chipped cards are not any more secure than the magnetic strip cards.

[Elusive_Cruiser]

OP here.

 

Thank you to all that have piped in and shared your experiences and knowledge!

 

I would like to clarify some of the facts. Both of the cards that were compromised had chip, swipe and PIN technology. These cards were issued in Canada. There are very few places that chip technology is not used here. As a rule, swiping is used only when the chip does not work. Sometimes, the cards can be finicky, but this is rare.

 

Also, I have a 6-digit PIN. I change it when travelling to the US, as there is a 4-digit requirement there.

 

When I used both the credit and debit card in Cozumel, chip was used, not swipe.

 

Still, lessons learned!

[goodycruising]

Off topic but I am curious. What (if any) is the difference between an ATM card and a debit card? TIA.

 

I think the difference is an atm card accesses your accounts at the branch or through the atm and you can pay using eftpos with cheque or savings options. A debit card is a credit type card, like Visa Mastercard Amex etc but you are accessing your accounts funds only, and do not book up credit and get a bill to pay later with interest rates. So you can choose "credit" and the merchant pays the fees for you making the purchase. Pay wave/paypass etc chips will allow the tap and go function.

 

That is how I see it in Australia.

[Elusive_Cruiser]

I'd be curious to learn what bank and what account type you have that the bank will automatically put back into your account cash that you as the account holder simply call the bank and say, "Oh I don't recognize this charge" as related to a PIN based debit card transaction.

 

It would certainly be a great bit of information for the masses, as this type of security os definitely NOT the norm relative to debit cards. You would be providing a great bit of help to many by providing bank name and account type. It is certainly possible that there are some banks out there who are looking to be more customer service oriented and providing extra protections the they by law do not have to. My bank, KeyBank, is not among them.

 

IF the debit card we are talking about has a VISA or Mastercard logo on it, and IF the transaction was made without the entering of a PIN (which can not be done at an ATM, only Cash advances in person for example) THEN it would be afforded the protections of the VISA/MASTERCARD network. But if a PIN is used, those protections go away, unless your bank is different than the majority of banks.

 

 

Some facts from the Better Business Bureau Website:

I would clarify there is a VERY LIMITED protection on Debit cards, if you notify the bank within 48 hours of an improper post the customer eats the 1st $50 of the loss, if you take more then 48 hours, you pay the 1st $500, if you wait more than 60 days, you lose all protection. Banks can also take up to 10 days to put money back to your account if you are within the timelines noted, which means you can be bouncing checks all over the place, or not have access to needed cash.

 

Credit card, the most you are liable for is $50, and you have up to 6 months to lodge a dispute, at which time the disputed transaction is immediately suspended in your account, so you do not have to pay for it.

 

There are many differences in U.S. vs Canadian banking systems/laws regarding this.

 

I contacted the bank (Royal Bank of Canada) on Friday as soon as I noticed the two debit withdrawals. They immediately cancelled both my and my DHs debit cards to stop any further withdrawals. We went into the bank on Saturday, as had to fill out an electronic form. The teller pulled up the transactions, and there were in fact around 6 withdrawals but only two had hit my account when I called in. Apparently the bandits were just in the process of scoring - I interrupted their party.

 

This morning the funds had been credited to my account, including the two service charges that had been applied. So, your 'facts' may be true, but only in the U.S.

[Kingofcool1947]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

 

Are you certain your credit card was not compromised somewhere by RFID reader ? Maybe in the ATM slot, or someone with a portable proximity RFiD reader standing near you getting your credit card info?

 

And it's easy to grab the info off of them for ID theft with a inexpensive portable proximity RFID reader. :eek:

 

Do you carry credit cards/passport in a RFID blocking wallet/passport holder? Better to be safe than sorry later. I think RFID chips are in most credit cards and and US/Canadian Passports. Not sure if RFID chip embedded in credit cards and Passports issued by other counties.

 

Safe travels in the future.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Kingofcool1947

[wwcruisers]

Kingofcool1947 -- good suggestion, on the RFID wallets! I think you can find them in the luggage/travel department of most stores, as well as on-line. The Pac-Safe website has a wide selection of wallets / passport holders, specifically designed to protect your items from RFID chip readers. We bought one that holds our passports, and has slots on one side for cards -- it's very handy to have on trips.

 

Also, many cards with RFID chips come with foil-lined sleeves -- which fit into an ordinary wallet. If worse comes to worse, you can always wrap them in a piece of aluminum foil. Basically, you just need some sort of Faraday-Cage, to protect your RFID-enabled cards/docs from being surreptitiously read.