Chip-Enabled Credit Cards in Europe

[navybankerteacher]

Please be careful with those blanket statements about which banks and financial institutions in the US are already issuing C&P cards. Take AMEX for example. I have two different AMEX cards, the personal Platinum and the Delta Platinum. Both have chips, neither are PIN, only sig. And, they are physically new cards as of April 2015. I also have a Citibank-issued HHonors Reserve card with a chip. Again, only sig. Now, it is possible that both of these institutions have one or two C&P cards issued for specific types of accounts. But, they do not offer C&P for all their cards.

That said, I made it through my April/May trip to Italy with most of my charges on my Plat AMEX card and the ones that didn't take AMEX went on my HHonors Visa. The only hiccup I had, and I knew it would happen, was with Metro and Trenitalia kiosks. So, I made sure I had cash for the Metro and I used the e-ticket function of the Trenitalia website and app (even for my tickets to/from FCO and Termini and Termini and Firenze SMN stations.

 

 

Good summary - except it is important to note that at unmanned locations, cash is no good. Meaning there will be trains you cannot ride or gasoline that you cannot buy if you do not have a chip and pin card.

[cle-guy]

Please be careful with those blanket statements about which banks and financial institutions in the US are already issuing C&P cards. Take AMEX for example. I have two different AMEX cards, the personal Platinum and the Delta Platinum. Both have chips, neither are PIN, only sig. And, they are physically new cards as of April 2015. I also have a Citibank-issued HHonors Reserve card with a chip. Again, only sig. Now, it is possible that both of these institutions have one or two C&P cards issued for specific types of accounts. But, they do not offer C&P for all their cards.

That said, I made it through my April/May trip to Italy with most of my charges on my Plat AMEX card and the ones that didn't take AMEX went on my HHonors Visa. The only hiccup I had, and I knew it would happen, was with Metro and Trenitalia kiosks. So, I made sure I had cash for the Metro and I used the e-ticket function of the Trenitalia website and app (even for my tickets to/from FCO and Termini and Termini and Firenze SMN stations.

 

No where have I stated every card issued buy those banks is Chip and Pin, in fact I've been careful to say the banks make the cards available, and list specific cards within banks that have it (ie. prior post #34 I note Barclay Bank, the Apple card is legit, or I stated the CitiBank government issued cards are C&P). The post you refer to was a 3rd attempt to summarize the fact that card can be had, not to say every card by the list of banks is capable. Amex has dozes of cards to choose from but only a couple have PIN capability. Citibank hundreds. Not all are C&P, only specify branded cards will be.

 

The point is Chip and Pin IS available, to those willing to seek it out, and thru a variety of regular, mainstream banks.

 

I've been doing a ton if international travel for the last 15 years, and have had a US chip and Pin card for several years, that works in Europe at train stations. It was a card with an airline, not I had to call in and ask for it back in the day, and they were limiting it to top-tier flyers at the time.

Edited October 7, 2015 by cle-guy

[Extra Kim]

Every "Chip with PIN-card" can be used with a signature in places where there's a human taking care of your payment. If I forget my PIN or when the system fails and you can't use the card in the terminal then I just sign instead.

But you will need a PIN to use the card in ticket machines and at unmanned gas pumps.

Amex, American Express and even Mastercard are NOT accepted everywhere, but you can use VISA almost everywhere.

 

I live in Sweden.

[SantaFeFan]

Yes those links all true, and live with hat almost all of us here are saying, that's the current minimum regulation in the US, but some banks are proving Chip and PIN cards and going beyond the minimum regulatory standard. It's not unusual for news outlets to not give specific details in their reporting and just graze the surface, as many have done.

 

What is not true are your statements:

 

 

 

 

 

Some US companies are issuing Chip and PIN, several as several of us have replied.

 

Had you said not all banks are issuing chip and PIN that would be correct. But a blanket statement, NO NO NO, and that they ARE NOT, is simply factually incorrect.

 

All we were doing was correcting your factually incorrect information. Chip and PIN cards are readily available from many banks in the USA. Citibank, Wells Fargo, Chase, American Express, Barclay's, Diner's Club. These are big players in Banking and therefore many cards are out that have the PIN option which will work internationally. Now as to PIN functionality in the US, many merchants may not be able to accept PIN processing but the fact remains the card is capable of it, depending on the hardware installed at the POS. As the poster from UK said, once a card is dipped, the terminal decides how it will process the card automatically., If the terminal can take PIN, and the card has a PIN, it will require a PIN. If the card has no pin, or the terminal is incapable of accepting a pin, it will require signature. It is automatically figured out by the POS terminal hardware.

 

You should have simply replied, "Thanks for the information, I had no idea - always nice to learn something new".

 

I will defer to your correction that not ALL card issuers provide only chip and signature. You are correct that a very small number issue Pin cards. However, according to a CBS evening news report discussing the Oct 1 deadline, the estimate is that less than 5% of the cards will indeed be chip and pin. This can only mean, if that reporting is correct, that nearly 95% of the new cards being issued will be chip and signature.

 

Now, if you want to argue that the 5% statistic bears more weight than the 95% statistic, then go right ahead. I won't argue your point, even though you are talking about only 1 out of 20 cards being issued. I'll let the other readers decide for themselves which statistic is more important to them.

Edited October 7, 2015 by SantaFeFan

[electro]

You are right that the current directive only REQUIRES Chip and Sign, and the majority of cards being reissued now are NOT chip and PIN, but chip and PIN cards are still being issued in some cases.

 

You have to wonder why the US is going Chip and Signature when the rest of the world has been using chip and pin for many years.

 

Banking in the US is like banking in Canada 20 years ago.

[sloopsailor]

You have to wonder why the US is going Chip and Signature when the rest of the world has been using chip and pin for many years.

 

Banking in the US is like banking in Canada 20 years ago.

 

A reporter on the local late evening news said it was because the big card issuers - Visa and Mastercard - think switching to chip and pin technology is too complicated for the American public. I can't decide if it's the reporter or the card companies who have that low regard for the American buying public - or decide if they are wrong! ;)

Edited October 8, 2015 by sloopsailor

[Shmoo here]

A reporter on the local late evening news said it was because the big card issuers - Visa and Mastercard - think switching to chip and pin technology is too complicated for the American public. I can't decide if it's the reporter or the card companies who have that low regard for the American buying public - or decide if they are wrong! ;)

 

 

To be honest, I've seen many people with just the "simple" chip and sign cards who can't figure out that they need to leave the card in the reader until prompted to remove it. Including the woman at the store this morning who, even with the cashier telling her step by step what to do, could NOT get the hang of it. She'd put the card in and immediately remove it and then try punching numbers on the keypad. She finally gave up and paid cash.

 

Yes, it's a new skill. And some people don't learn new stuff easily.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Shmoo here

[navybankerteacher]

I will defer to your correction that not ALL card issuers provide only chip and signature. You are correct that a very small number issue Pin cards. However, according to a CBS evening news report discussing the Oct 1 deadline, the estimate is that less than 5% of the cards will indeed be chip and pin. This can only mean, if that reporting is correct, that nearly 95% of the new cards being issued will be chip and signature.

 

Now, if you want to argue that the 5% statistic bears more weight than the 95% statistic, then go right ahead. I won't argue your point, even though you are talking about only 1 out of 20 cards being issued. I'll let the other readers decide for themselves which statistic is more important to them.

 

Yes, there is currently a patheticly low leve of compliance with the Oct. 1 target date. However a number of major card issuers are finally working out the bugs and will shortly add the PIN factor. When you say " less than 5% will indeed be chip and pin", you are referring to the ratio as of October 1. Of course, since we are already past October 1, you must be referring to an old CBS report.

 

Because 50% of my credit cards were already chip and pin as of several months ago, I am not inclined to take that CBS report very seriously.

[CruiserBruce]

You have to wonder why the US is going Chip and Signature when the rest of the world has been using chip and pin for many years.

 

Banking in the US is like banking in Canada 20 years ago.

 

 

Because it is costing billions to make this change over...the chip and PIN cards cost over 3 times as much as the old mag stripe cards. Plus every store and other business has to buy the new readers. There is a lot of businesses unwilling to take on the cost of the new machines. There is a fair amount of resistance at many levels to the new cards.

[sloopsailor]

Yes, there is currently a patheticly low leve of compliance with the Oct. 1 target date. However a number of major card issuers are finally working out the bugs and will shortly add the PIN factor. When you say " less than 5% will indeed be chip and pin", you are referring to the ratio as of October 1. Of course, since we are already past October 1, you must be referring to an old CBS report.

 

Because 50% of my credit cards were already chip and pin as of several months ago, I am not inclined to take that CBS report very seriously.

 

And some people haven't even gotten replacement cards with chips in them yet. I don't see how you having 50% of your cards upgraded has any relevance on what the rest of the population has. Some reports indicate that less than 40% of card users have received the new chip cards. That means that millions of Americans can't use them because they don't have them.

 

Here is a quote from a USNews article dated 6 days ago: http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/10/01/heres-why-americans-are-getting-new-credit-and-debit-cards

 

"WHEN WILL I GET ONE?

 

"The national banks are currently in the process of issuing chip-based debit cards. Most of the regional and smaller banks will start rolling out these cards to their customers later this year. But the process could take years and some smaller banks may not replace a customers' credit card until the current card expires."

 

And these are just the chip and signature cards. And since chip and pin cards aren't the agreed upon technology, for most people the pin cards are a very long time away.

Edited October 8, 2015 by sloopsailor

[SantaFeFan]

And some people haven't even gotten replacement cards with chips in them yet. I don't see how you having 50% of your cards upgraded has any relevance on what the rest of the population has.

 

Yes, I agree. Since my wife and I travel overseas quite frequently, all but one of the cards we use for travel are chip and PIN. Using navybankerteacher's logic, that must mean that the majority of the population should also have chip and pin cards by now. Clearly, that isn't the case. What I have gone to the trouble to search out and get, most people aren't as motivated, and will use whatever their card issuer gives them.

 

And these are just the chip and signature cards. And since chip and pin cards aren't the agreed upon technology, for most people the pin cards are a very long time away.

 

From what I have been reading, there is no motivation to convert a second time to chip and pin as the standard. The decision was made years ago to go with chip and signature. Chip and pin will be available from some issuers by request. But they will not be issued to everyone as the standard.

 

Here is an interesting article that talks about the shortcomings of chip and signature cards, and why these are what most of us are getting.

 

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/big-security-fix-credit-cards-wont-stop-fraud/

 

I found this paragraph particularly interesting:

 

"The card industry defends the use of signatures, however, saying the power to combat fraud lies in the chip, not the PIN or the signature. PINs add an extra layer of protection only for cards that are lost or stolen, says Vanderhoof [Randy Vanderhoof, director of the EMV Migration Forum]. They’re not needed to protect against counterfeit-card fraud, whereby a hacker steals a lot of card data from a retailer’s network then embosses it onto counterfeit cards to make fraudulent purchases in stores."

[iancal]

Just returned from five weeks in Greece. Our banks only issue chip and pin cards so that is all we have.

 

We used PIN devices throughout Greece and in many small, family run hotels. And several had the new 'tap' feature where you simply tap the device with the card...no need to key in a pin. Interesting enough, some places wanted us to sign the chip approved vendor slip. Same for many other countries.

 

We continue to be amazed when we travel in the US that this is not universal.

[buggins0402]

Yes, I agree. Since my wife and I travel overseas quite frequently, all but one of the cards we use for travel are chip and PIN. Using navybankerteacher's logic, that must mean that the majority of the population should also have chip and pin cards by now. Clearly, that isn't the case. What I have gone to the trouble to search out and get, most people aren't as motivated, and will use whatever their card issuer gives them.

 

 

 

From what I have been reading, there is no motivation to convert a second time to chip and pin as the standard. The decision was made years ago to go with chip and signature. Chip and pin will be available from some issuers by request. But they will not be issued to everyone as the standard.

 

Here is an interesting article that talks about the shortcomings of chip and signature cards, and why these are what most of us are getting.

 

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/big-security-fix-credit-cards-wont-stop-fraud/

 

I found this paragraph particularly interesting:

 

"The card industry defends the use of signatures, however, saying the power to combat fraud lies in the chip, not the PIN or the signature. PINs add an extra layer of protection only for cards that are lost or stolen, says Vanderhoof [Randy Vanderhoof, director of the EMV Migration Forum]. They’re not needed to protect against counterfeit-card fraud, whereby a hacker steals a lot of card data from a retailer’s network then embosses it onto counterfeit cards to make fraudulent purchases in stores."

 

Interesting....the banks are more concerned where they could take a loss (cloned card) and with the chips now sticking the Merchants on fraudulent purchases with stolen cards. The way I read this, the issuers are now Teflon for losses.

[cle-guy]

Interesting....the banks are more concerned where they could take a loss (cloned card) and with the chips now sticking the Merchants on fraudulent purchases with stolen cards. The way I read this, the issuers are now Teflon for losses.

 

This is exactly it.

 

 

Card issuers want to keep issuing as many cards as they can to get the annual fees and people to use them.

 

Now card issuers have a great opportunity to profit until PIN comes about and all merchants have CHIP and PIN capability, as the merchants are going to eat the fraudulent charges.

 

A merchant that accepts a CHIP card by swiping it, even if the sale is legitimate, they have the customer's signature on an invoice with copy of driver license, if the customer disputes the charge, the merchant loses with no chance to fight the dispute. So some savvy consumers can also look to take advantage of this anomaly too.

 

Its a bad situation for merchants right now (I am a merchant).

[navybankerteacher]

Yes, I agree. Since my wife and I travel overseas quite frequently, all but one of the cards we use for travel are chip and PIN. Using navybankerteacher's logic, that must mean that the majority of the population should also have chip and pin cards by now. Clearly, that isn't the case. What I have gone to the trouble to search out and get, most people aren't as motivated, and will use whatever their card issuer gives them.

 

 

No - by my logic, the majority of the population COULD (not should) have chip and pin cards by now.

 

I did not find it very difficult to get mine - certainly not enough to warrant calling it:

 

"going to the trouble to search out and get"

 

It was a simple matter of asking card issuers for the chip and pin. Two out of four complied immediately - the other two are "working on it".

 

I agree that a lot of people aren't motivated.

[buggins0402]

No - by my logic, the majority of the population COULD (not should) have chip and pin cards by now.

 

I did not find it very difficult to get mine - certainly not enough to warrant calling it:

 

"going to the trouble to search out and get"

 

It was a simple matter of asking card issuers for the chip and pin. Two out of four complied immediately - the other two are "working on it".

 

I agree that a lot of people aren't motivated.

 

Navybanker.... Our cards are all chip and sign. When I tried to get a pin, what we definitely would have gotten was a cash advance pin...not a security pin. How does one know what kind of pin they will be given?

 

Our first chip card came almost three years ago (US Bank). I thought "oh good finally a chip and pin card". This was well before the difference in chip and sign and chip and pin was talked about.

 

After hours on the phone with a clueless agents trying to get a pin it became clear what we would receive was a cash advance pin.

 

We also have the complete set of airline cards - AA, United and Delta...do any of these now have true pin capabilities?

Edited October 8, 2015 by buggins0402

[PTMary]

No - by my logic, the majority of the population COULD (not should) have chip and pin cards by now.

 

I did not find it very difficult to get mine - certainly not enough to warrant calling it:

 

"going to the trouble to search out and get"

 

It was a simple matter of asking card issuers for the chip and pin. Two out of four complied immediately - the other two are "working on it".

 

I agree that a lot of people aren't motivated.

 

What you fail to consider is that not everyone wants to have cards with multiple banks. They would not be casually shopping around for credit, but would rather stay with the bank or credit union they already have a relationship with, or deal with one they are familiar with instead of going to banks they have never heard of before. Establishing too many credit accounts can be detrimental to a person's credit rating. Shopping for credit is much more involved than shopping for a pair of shoes.So, yes, if a person "shops" around, they can find banks that will issue them a chip and pin card. But not everyone would want to have even more credit card accounts than they already have.

Edited October 8, 2015 by PTMary

[PTMary]

Now card issuers have a great opportunity to profit until PIN comes about and all merchants have CHIP and PIN capability, as the merchants are going to eat the fraudulent charges.

 

Actually, that is not how it works. Merchants who do not install the chip readers will be accountable. It has nothing to do with signature or pin capabilities. Only when the merchant is still using swipe machines will they be accountable for any fraudulent charges.

 

A merchant that accepts a CHIP card by swiping it, even if the sale is legitimate, they have the customer's signature on an invoice with copy of driver license, if the customer disputes the charge, the merchant loses with no chance to fight the dispute. So some savvy consumers can also look to take advantage of this anomaly too.

 

Its a bad situation for merchants right now (I am a merchant).

 

Actually, that is not how it works. Merchants who do not install the chip readers will be accountable. It has nothing to do with signature or pin capabilities. Only when the merchant is still using swipe machines will they be accountable for any fraudulent charges. The exception is when the card issuer hasn't issued the card yet. Then the issuer is responsible. This is spelled out in countless news articles on the change. Bottom line, for fraudulent charges:

 

1) If the merchant has installed the new chip readers, the issuer is responsible if a chip card or a swipe card is used

2) If the merchant has NOT installed the new chip readers, the merchant is responsible if a chip card is used

3) If the merchant has NOT installed the new chip readers, the issuer is responsible if a swipe card has not been replaced by a chip card

 

None of these situations have anything to do with the chip card being a PIN card or a SIGNATURE card. They are all determined by the availability of chip readers, and whether the card being used is a swipe or chip card.

 

As a merchant, I am surprised that you don't know this.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/credit-card-chip-rule/story?id=34148839

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/watchdog/mc-chip-credit-cards-watchdog-20150930-column.html

http://time.com/money/4040808/credit-card-chip-fraud-emv/

Edited October 8, 2015 by PTMary

[navybankerteacher]

Yes, I agree. Since my wife and I travel overseas quite frequently, all but one of the cards we use for travel are chip and PIN. "

 

I have to ask what chip and PIN cards you are referring to. In Post #33 (11:17AM yesterday) you pretty much shouted that US banks do not issue chip and PIN cards

[cle-guy]

Actually, that is not how it works. Merchants who do not install the chip readers will be accountable. It has nothing to do with signature or pin capabilities. Only when the merchant is still using swipe machines will they be accountable for any fraudulent charges. The exception is when the card issuer hasn't issued the card yet. Then the issuer is responsible. This is spelled out in countless news articles on the change. Bottom line, for fraudulent charges:

 

1) If the merchant has installed the new chip readers, the issuer is responsible if a chip card or a swipe card is used

2) If the merchant has NOT installed the new chip readers, the merchant is responsible if a chip card is used

3) If the merchant has NOT installed the new chip readers, the issuer is responsible if a swipe card has not been replaced by a chip card

 

None of these situations have anything to do with the chip card being a PIN card or a SIGNATURE card.

 

As a merchant, I am surprised that you don't know this.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/credit-card-chip-rule/story?id=34148839

 

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/watchdog/mc-chip-credit-cards-watchdog-20150930-column.html

 

http://time.com/money/4040808/credit-card-chip-fraud-emv/

 

I'm getting my information from the letters my merchants mail me, not via news sites, stories and articles.

 

It has to do with did I "Swipe the Mag strip" or did I "Dip the chip". If a card has a chip, but I swipe rather than dip, I lose ability to fight the charge. It's that simple.

 

• So old card no chip, I can process anyway I want, I will be covered. Clearly only option os to swipe.
  
• New card with chip, if it is dipped, then I am protected - matters not if PIN or signature is used, it must be DIPPED.. If I choose to SWIPE and not dip (because I haven't upgraded my hardware yet, or because my hardware isn't functioning), I lose my protection.
  

 

I think we are saying the same thing...?

Edited October 8, 2015 by cle-guy

[buggins0402]

And....I heard that gas **** chip readers have until 2017 to be upgraded.

[navybankerteacher]

What you fail to consider is that not everyone wants to have cards with multiple banks. They would not be casually shopping around for credit, but would rather stay with the bank or credit union they already have a relationship with, or deal with one they are familiar with instead of going to banks they have never heard of before. Establishing too many credit accounts can be detrimental to a person's credit rating. Shopping for credit is much more involved than shopping for a pair of shoes.So, yes, if a person "shops" around, they can find banks that will issue them a chip and pin card. But not everyone would want to have even more credit card accounts than they already have.

 

If you do not care for the chip and pin, you can stay with what your card issuer gives you. If you change issuers (not hard at all, because most issuers are eager for customers) you can write your previous card issuer to close the account - and such responsible, affirmative action is actually beneficial to your credit rating.

[navybankerteacher]

Navybanker.... Our cards are all chip and sign. When I tried to get a pin, what we definitely would have gotten was a cash advance pin...not a security pin. How does one know what kind of pin they will be given?

 

Our first chip card came almost three years ago (US Bank). I thought "oh good finally a chip and pin card". This was well before the difference in chip and sign and chip and pin was talked about.

 

After hours on the phone with a clueless agents trying to get a pin it became clear what we would receive was a cash advance pin.

 

We also have the complete set of airline cards - AA, United and Delta...do any of these now have true pin capabilities?

 

I have AAdvantage Card - (Citibank- MasterCard) - it is chip but not PIN. I did spend a frustrating time with their uninformed people discussing PIN possibility. It is appalling to me how poorly trained their staff are - but I suppose they match their clueless employer.

 

My Delta and Jet Blue cards are both American Express, and I have not raised the issue with them as I only use these cards to book flights on those lines. The Delta card is recent and has a chip and the Jet Blue one expires in November - and I'm sure the replacement will have chip, but again I do not care about PIN on either of those.

[cle-guy]

Navybanker.... Our cards are all chip and sign. When I tried to get a pin, what we definitely would have gotten was a cash advance pin...not a security pin. How does one know what kind of pin they will be given?

 

From what I've read about PIN cards, you set your own pin the very first time you use it when when insert it into a Chip reader with PIN, if the card is PIN enabled, it will automatically prompt you to create it at that point, then continue on with your transaction.

 

So one could surmise if you receive a PIN from some source, it's an ATM pin since you did not create it with the card in a terminal.

Edited October 8, 2015 by cle-guy

[Algebralovr]

From what I've read about PIN cards, you set your own pin the very first time you use it when when insert it into a Chip reader with PIN, if the card is PIN enabled, it will automatically prompt you to create it at that point, then continue on with your transaction.

 

So one could surmise if you receive a PIN from some source, it's an ATM pin since you did not create it with the card in a terminal.

 

That has not been my experience. The two we have that are chip and Pin had a separate mailer that included the pin. The mailer also told us that it was not possible to change the pin at this time.

 

Yes, we have two real Chip and Pin cards, while we have a couple more that were just reissued as chip and signature to meet the October deadline.

 

By comparison, our ATM card was reissued with a chip, but I can change the pin at the ATM.