Riviera on Code Red again

[SMKASH]

According to the CDC, on the present cruise, there were 52 cases off norovirus out of 1204 passengers. This constitutes 4.3% and qualifies for a code red. While the number of afflicted passengers is really not great, the real question is how the situation affects to the quality of the cruise. What happens to service and amenities? Does the Riviera become a kind of hospital ship?

 

The latest number is 127. It's hard to believe that it's just bad luck that has caused the disproportionate number of outbreaks on this ship and we only know of the ones that involve US ports. We have no way of knowing how many outbreaks there have been on non US itineraries.

Oceania is not very cooperative in addressing future passenger questions. I was scheduled to sail in December 2015 after an outbreak. Got no info from the cruise line and when I asked the ship's doctor how many were still infected his answer was "How do you know about it?" No other information was given out but we were still under restrictions.

[pthjudy]

The latest number is 127. It's hard to believe that it's just bad luck that has caused the disproportionate number of outbreaks on this ship and we only know of the ones that involve US ports. We have no way of knowing how many outbreaks there have been on non US itineraries.

Oceania is not very cooperative in addressing future passenger questions. I was scheduled to sail in December 2015 after an outbreak. Got no info from the cruise line and when I asked the ship's doctor how many were still infected his answer was "How do you know about it?" No other information was given out but we were still under restrictions.

Where did you hear 127? That's huge.

[chengkp75]

Where did you hear 127? That's huge.

 

Just checked the VSP website, it is 98 pax and 7 crew. And that is not the number of cases at one time, it is the aggregate for the cruise.

[ORV]

Thank you. Not sure of this poster's research, as the CDC's website on Safe Water Systems shows that noro virus is 99.99% inactivated by a concentration of chlorine of 1ppm with a contact time of 0.07 minutes (4.2 seconds). A NIH study from 2008 shows that they believe noro IS NOT highly resistant to chlorination.

 

Per the USPH requirements, when water is loaded from a port, it must be from a source that has met USPH or WHO water standards within the past month, and will be chlorinated to 2ppm before it goes into the tanks, or when produced onboard, to the same level. Since the water onboard is constantly recirculated, and this recirculated water is continually chlorinated, these tanks generally retain some chlorination. The water circulated through the ship is chlorinated continuously so that the residual chlorine is at least 0.5ppm at the farthest point from the injection point (the engine room), so it will always be higher than 0.5ppm, and this would inactivate noro within a few seconds as well (even 10-12 seconds, or three times the contact time would be before any water reached the first cabin).

 

Water from 6 locations around the ship (showers, galleys, laundry, tanks) are tested monthly for contamination, and the records are made available to the USPH when they inspect. If it was suspected by the USPH that the water supply was the source of the virus, they would take their own samples for analysis. There was a ship a couple of months ago that had a legionella outbreak, and this was traced to shower heads, by water samples.

 

Any water taken on in port, in addition to being chlorinated, is kept segregated until the testing is completed, and this takes 18-24 hours.

 

Pools are chlorinated to 2-4ppm chlorine, so this is even less of a possible source.

 

While not a requirement of the USPH VSP, I know that some lines use a chlorine solution to wash "ready to eat" foods like fruits and vegetables. I can't say whether or not Oceania does this.

 

Not sure why a contaminated water supply would produce outbreaks of high noro contagion followed by periods of low contagion. It would be pretty consistent.

 

Please don't confuse the issue with facts, science and logic. It's a lot more fun when people just make stuff up. ;)

[Paulchili]

Please don't confuse the issue with facts, science and logic. It's a lot more fun when people just make stuff up. ;)

 

Too funny :D

[Hawaiidan]

My pet worry in all rooms whether hotel or cruise ship is who washes the drinking glasses in the rooms? I know some hotels bring clean glasses every day wrapped in paper but, as far as I have seen, most are washed by the room attendants. I ALWAYS take wipes for the sole purpose of cleaning the glasses.

 

I also favour the alcohol prevention :D.

 

 

Ethanol or methanol is not that good.... and most methanol, is rated as a flamable liquid.. The concentrations in drugstore methanol are minimal

I use Zepherine Chloride to clean medical gear... Bleach is the best

 

I plan on not worrying... hotels world wide have the same prob

[chengkp75]

Ethanol or methanol is not that good.... and most methanol, is rated as a flamable liquid.. The concentrations in drugstore methanol are minimal

I use Zepherine Chloride to clean medical gear... Bleach is the best

 

I plan on not worrying... hotels world wide have the same prob

 

The glass washing machines used in the cabin stewards' pantries, along with every other glass and dish washing machine are tested on a regular basis (at least weekly, most daily) to ensure that the surface temperature of the service ware has reached 160*F, which the USPH/CDC has determined to be sufficient to sanitize any dishware. Very few hotels or restaurants ashore test their machines in this fashion, they solely rely on the indicated wash and rinse water temperatures, which may or may not provide enough heat to sanitize the dishware.

[GeezerCouple]

Ethanol or methanol is not that good.... and most methanol, is rated as a flamable liquid.. The concentrations in drugstore methanol are minimal

I use Zepherine Chloride to clean medical gear... Bleach is the best

 

I plan on not worrying... hotels world wide have the same prob

 

I suspect Lady Meer is joking and referring to the imbibed alcohol (acting on gut microbes). :D

 

There has already been a lot of discussion here about how the CDC-recommended topical cleaning solutions for *noro* do not include the alcohol based solutions such as Purell.

[RJB]

Don't agree. If it were some inherent problem with the ship I feel the outbreaks would be much more widespread, and not limited to the relatively small number of people per cruise who have contracted the virus. Speaking personally, I recently sailed on RIVIERA for a week. Had a great cruise, ate and drank everything, and no illness to speak of. The ship was spotless and everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves.

So why is this ship getting sick all the time. There could be over 100,000 people leaving South Florida ports on probable 20 different ships each week. (this number is probably low) going thru the same airports, using the same taxi cabs and car services having their luggage handled by the same porters getting their food and water from the same companies. Is there something special about only Oceania passengers that show up at the ship with Noro. I don't know what the problem is but it sure is there. Got to find it.

[chengkp75]

So why is this ship getting sick all the time. There could be over 100,000 people leaving South Florida ports on probable 20 different ships each week. (this number is probably low) going thru the same airports, using the same taxi cabs and car services having their luggage handled by the same porters getting their food and water from the same companies. Is there something special about only Oceania passengers that show up at the ship with Noro. I don't know what the problem is but it sure is there. Got to find it.

 

Without a peek at the trend data, that the USPH/CDC uses to search for causes and transmission vectors, you really can't say for sure, but the "periodic" nature of the outbreaks, meaning with some weeks in between rather than continuous outbreaks, lends credence to the passengers being the causative agent. Not saying it couldn't be elsewhere, but the epidemiologists at the CDC would have a much better handle on this than anyone here, and if they thought the ship was to blame, either constructively or operationally, they would have addressed this with the cruise line long before this.

[GeezerCouple]

Without a peek at the trend data, that the USPH/CDC uses to search for causes and transmission vectors, you really can't say for sure, but the "periodic" nature of the outbreaks, meaning with some weeks in between rather than continuous outbreaks, lends credence to the passengers being the causative agent. Not saying it couldn't be elsewhere, but the epidemiologists at the CDC would have a much better handle on this than anyone here, and if they thought the ship was to blame, either constructively or operationally, they would have addressed this with the cruise line long before this.

 

Does CDC *ever* do something like test ALL crew (including Officers) when there is an ongoing problem like this?

 

... Just in case there is indeed a Typhoid Mary/Mel on board?

Apparently there can be silent carriers.

 

(We both have a bit of epi backgrounds, and yes, I understand that this doesn't fit with the intermittent on/off nature of the occurrences, but still...)

[iamkingofall]

Without a peek at the trend data, that the USPH/CDC uses to search for causes and transmission vectors, you really can't say for sure, but the "periodic" nature of the outbreaks, meaning with some weeks in between rather than continuous outbreaks, lends credence to the passengers being the causative agent. Not saying it couldn't be elsewhere, but the epidemiologists at the CDC would have a much better handle on this than anyone here, and if they thought the ship was to blame, either constructively or operationally, they would have addressed this with the cruise line long before this.

 

Makes sense to me . Thanks:rolleyes:

[RJB]

Without a peek at the trend data, that the USPH/CDC uses to search for causes and transmission vectors, you really can't say for sure, but the "periodic" nature of the outbreaks, meaning with some weeks in between rather than continuous outbreaks, lends credence to the passengers being the causative agent. Not saying it couldn't be elsewhere, but the epidemiologists at the CDC would have a much better handle on this than anyone here, and if they thought the ship was to blame, either constructively or operationally, they would have addressed this with the cruise line long before this.

So again, why just the Oceania passenger? I sit here and look at the Port Everglades website, Port of Miami website and Port Canaveral website and must see 20, or 30 ships each week leaving and returning, and none of them with Noro. You don't have to be rocket scientist to see that they(CDC or Oceania) have no clue. Look at the numbers. It is just common sense. A third grader would be able to figure out it is not the passengers.

[chengkp75]

Does CDC *ever* do something like test ALL crew (including Officers) when there is an ongoing problem like this?

 

... Just in case there is indeed a Typhoid Mary/Mel on board?

Apparently there can be silent carriers.

 

(We both have a bit of epi backgrounds, and yes, I understand that this doesn't fit with the intermittent on/off nature of the occurrences, but still...)

 

I've never heard of this, and to collect fecal samples from all the crew would possibly be against some employment contracts or international law (to be honest, I haven't looked this up with regards to the MLC 2006 conventions). And even a person who is positive for noro does not neccessarily become a transmission vector, unless their personal hygiene is such that they produce the requisite fecal cross-contamination. This is why I lean away from the crew, because even if there were an asymptomatic carrier in the crew, their personal hygiene would continue to cross-contaminate on a regular basis, not intermittently.

 

Also, as I've said, the trend data is far more important to the CDC than the raw, total number of cases, as study of this trend data can show whether the causative agent has remained onboard from one cruise to the next.

[RJB]

I've never heard of this, and to collect fecal samples from all the crew would possibly be against some employment contracts or international law (to be honest, I haven't looked this up with regards to the MLC 2006 conventions). And even a person who is positive for noro does not neccessarily become a transmission vector, unless their personal hygiene is such that they produce the requisite fecal cross-contamination. This is why I lean away from the crew, because even if there were an asymptomatic carrier in the crew, their personal hygiene would continue to cross-contaminate on a regular basis, not intermittently.

 

Also, as I've said, the trend data is far more important to the CDC than the raw, total number of cases, as study of this trend data can show whether the causative agent has remained onboard from one cruise to the next.

The logical data shows that right now there are 14 ships in So. Florida ports, including Miami and Ft. Lauderdale and not one came back with Noro. Does that not tell someone something? And tomorrow there probably will be about the same coming back. All Noro free. Let all these very smart people look at this very simple trend. Are they afraid that people will wonder what they have been doing all these months? We are getting a lot of fancy words but they sure have not stopped the Noro. Are we still paying them? Should re look at the CDC and see if they are really smart enough to handle this problem.

Edited April 2, 2016 by RJB

[rheasue38]

Hi!

We are currently aboard the Riviera. Recently learned that there is a noro epidemic in the Miami schools and many of the schools have had to close for several days at a time. This has been going on most of the winter. Perhaps having the Miami travel agents come on at embarkation is not the smartest thing to do!

Rhea

[chengkp75]

So again, why just the Oceania passenger? I sit here and look at the Port Everglades website, Port of Miami website and Port Canaveral website and must see 20, or 30 ships each week leaving and returning, and none of them with Noro. You don't have to be rocket scientist to see that they(CDC or Oceania) have no clue. Look at the numbers. It is just common sense. A third grader would be able to figure out it is not the passengers.

 

Of the ships that have had an "update" in 2016 to date (7 ships in total), 4 of them (Riviera, Carnival Sunshine, Ocean Princess, and Silver Spirit) home ported out of the Miami/Port Canaveral/Ft. Lauderdale area.

 

I wouldn't go and say that third graders are smarter than the epidemiologists at the CDC. There are probably more ships that reach the 2% special reporting level, but don't make the 3% "update" level, so this may be a far more widespread phenomenon than you think. I'm sure not going to second guess the people recognized around the world as the premier experts in the field.

[RJB]

Of the ships that have had an "update" in 2016 to date (7 ships in total), 4 of them (Riviera, Carnival Sunshine, Ocean Princess, and Silver Spirit) home ported out of the Miami/Port Canaveral/Ft. Lauderdale area.

 

I wouldn't go and say that third graders are smarter than the epidemiologists at the CDC. There are probably more ships that reach the 2% special reporting level, but don't make the 3% "update" level, so this may be a far more widespread phenomenon than you think. I'm sure not going to second guess the people recognized around the world as the premier experts in the field.

Looks like we need some new premier experts because the one's we have are sure not getting it done. Could be more widespread than I think, but Riviera seems to have been on Code Red at lest half the time or more in the last 4 months. Don't think the rest of the ships you talk about had anything close to that. Maybe we need new smarter experts to handle this problem. Make it a third grade science project and you never know what you might get. Could not be any worse than the current so called world premier experts.

[RJB]

Hi!

We are currently aboard the Riviera. Recently learned that there is a noro epidemic in the Miami schools and many of the schools have had to close for several days at a time. This has been going on most of the winter. Perhaps having the Miami travel agents come on at embarkation is not the smartest thing to do!

Rhea

You could be right, but first we need to know if Miami travel agents visit all the the other ships in port on embarkation day. It is a big marketing tool for the cruise lines. In the past I have been invited by my TA to go with her on various ships to see them. (Not Oceania) This is not an easy problem to solve but it must be done.

[chengkp75]

Looks like we need some new premier experts because the one's we have are sure not getting it done. Could be more widespread than I think, but Riviera seems to have been on Code Red at lest half the time or more in the last 4 months. Don't think the rest of the ships you talk about had anything close to that. Maybe we need new smarter experts to handle this problem. Make it a third grade science project and you never know what you might get. Could not be any worse than the current so called world premier experts.

 

You could be right, but first we need to know if Miami travel agents visit all the the other ships in port on embarkation day. It is a big marketing tool for the cruise lines. In the past I have been invited by my TA to go with her on various ships to see them. (Not Oceania) This is not an easy problem to solve but it must be done.

 

Hm, "not an easy problem to solve" yet third graders could do better? Maybe you should e-mail the CDC with your suggestions on how to do their job better.

[eroller]

You could be right, but first we need to know if Miami travel agents visit all the the other ships in port on embarkation day. It is a big marketing tool for the cruise lines. In the past I have been invited by my TA to go with her on various ships to see them. (Not Oceania) This is not an easy problem to solve but it must be done.

 

 

FYI all cruise lines have travel agent luncheons on turn-around days. It's not just an Oceania thing. If this were the root of the problem you would see issues on far more ships. Also I live in South Florida and I've heard nothing about noro outbreaks in the schools here. News to me.

[RJB]

Hm, "not an easy problem to solve" yet third graders could do better? Maybe you should e-mail the CDC with your suggestions on how to do their job better.

Didn't say they could do better, but the CDC is not doing very well. Never know. Out of the mouths of babes. Just trying to say that the CDC is not doing any better than a third grader could do, maybe. They sure are not earning their pay on this issue. After 4 months they should be doing much more.

[Frncie]

Also, as I've said, the trend data is far more important to the CDC than the raw, total number of cases, as study of this trend data can show whether the causative agent has remained onboard from one cruise to the next.

 

Interesting. The idea is they test the DNA of the virus from each outbreak to see if it is the same or different from previous strains? That seems to me to be a very important clue towards isolating the source.

 

If the strain is the same for each outbreak, that points strongly towards a source aboard the ship, human or mechanical. If the strains are different, then it's more likely that something or someone is bringing it onboard each time.

 

Is that the theory?

[chengkp75]

Interesting. The idea is they test the DNA of the virus from each outbreak to see if it is the same or different from previous strains? That seems to me to be a very important clue towards isolating the source.

 

If the strain is the same for each outbreak, that points strongly towards a source aboard the ship, human or mechanical. If the strains are different, then it's more likely that something or someone is bringing it onboard each time.

 

Is that the theory?

 

No, I'm talking about the trend of reported cases. These will rise after the initial cause comes onboard, and then whether the daily rate increases, decreases, or stays constant will indicate whether remediation methods are working. Then, if the daily rate of new cases trends towards zero at the end of the cruise, but then starts to rise again a couple of days into the next cruise, this would indicate that a new source came onboard. If the trend is flatter during the transition between cruises then it indicates that the source may have been onboard for both cruises. The CDC also uses the reports taken by the medical department when people report AGI, to try to isolate commonalities between patients.

 

I don't know enough of viral chemistry/biology to know how much the viral DNA/RNA varies between strains, and how varied strains are across the country.

[SMKASH]

It was reported by an publication called Outbreak News Today, but on closer examination, they were referencing the February outbreak not the current one.