Passenger Skipping a Port

[Cruiser411]

Definitely call (or have your TA call) Princess. What you want to do is called a route-sector. They will fill out some paperwork and the powers-that-be will say yea or nay within a couple of days.

[chengkp75]

Let me jump in here.

 

First off, if requested in advance, this would constitute a violation of the PVSA, so Princess would not give permission. If done "accidentally", you most likely would not be allowed to reboard, as you have already caused a violation and the reboarding would constitute a second violation.

 

There are in fact cabotage laws like the PVSA in Europe, though it is much easier to get around them. The cabotage laws lump all EU member states together as if they were "one flag" for this purpose. Therefore, a French ship could transport passengers between Naples and Genoa, without a foreign port, but a Bahamian ship could not. Now, the Bahamian ship could transport between Naples and Genoa simply by calling at Corsica in between.

 

Regardless of the PVSA, most cruise lines do not allow downstream boarding (after the embark port) or upstream disembarking (leaving early) on cruises that start and end in the US. This has to do with CBP and the way they handle the passenger manifest, not so much with the PVSA. The reason that CBP allows the BC/DL form of ID for cruises is that they have several days to screen the passenger information, unlike an airline trip. However, each time the passenger count changes (you getting off in Boston, and then again when you get back on in Newport), a new passenger manifest must be prepared and submitted to CBP. Each time a new manifest is submitted, CBP treats it like a new voyage is beginning. And in many cases, this means that the "new" voyage started in a foreign country, and CBP clearance at disembarkation becomes like a TA cruise, not a closed loop. Since CBP has had days to screen you, the disembark "interview" for a closed loop is more matching your face to the picture on your ID, and then matching the name on the ID to the manifest. When a cruise begins in a foreign port, or the manifest changes, they then will run you through the database, even if cursorily, at disembark, taking more time. The European nations do not handle the passenger manifests in the same way, so the cruise lines are more open to allowing this over there than in the US.

 

Submitting the manifest costs the cruise line money, having more agents to do the more intensive clearance costs money, and it can cause delays and complaints from passengers over missed flights, so as a general rule, granting permission for upstream/downstream boarding is not given for personal, controllable reasons (it can be allowed for weather, medical, etc).

Edited November 29, 2016 by chengkp75

[Nashna]

It appears that you live and Florida and your son lives in New Hampshire. Should Princess allow you to depart in Boston and return in Newport you will miss one full day out of seven. Perhaps, you might wish to cancel the New York cruise and book one that departs from Boston. Holland American, Royal Caribbean & Seabourn all offer options from Boston. By sailing out of Boston, you will eliminate the stress of the fickle Newport weather. This would also allow you to arrive in New Hampshire for a few days prior or post cruise to visit with your son. If you wished to remain on your original Princess cruise, you might fly into Boston or New Hampshire prior to your cruise to visit your son before the New York departure. Airfares each way maybe as low as $49.00. Another option might be to have your son meet you in Boston for the day, then drive to Newport to spend the day with you. Vacations should be stress free, your plan to leave the ship and return would just create issues. Think of intense fog or a hurricane causing the ship to totally change course. The hurricane this past fall caused changes to the Canada/New England cruise schedules.

[The Other Tom]

Chances are you won't be able to do this. The PVSA says that a foreign flagged ship may not transport passengers from one US port to another US port without a stop in a distant foreign port. A distant foreign port is any port NOT in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or

the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)

Hmmmm..then how can a ship embark in Seattle, stop at several ports in Alaska, then make a quick stop in Victoria, Canada before returning to Seattle ????

We did exactly that on our last Alaskan cruise

[hijinks]

Hmmmm..then how can a ship embark in Seattle, stop at several ports in Alaska, then make a quick stop in Victoria, Canada before returning to Seattle ????

We did exactly that on our last Alaskan cruise

 

 

Because round trip Seattle isn't two different US ports?

[yuccaman]

As chengkp75 pointed out, what seems like an innocuous desire by yourself to disembark and reboard is actually a paperwork, security, and compliance nightmare for the cruise line, and even if they DID let you re-embark you would be subject to $600/per person fines from the gov't. If you were kicked off outright and not allowed to re-embark (the most likely scenario, with your belongings left pierside in Boston), you would still have $300/per person fine liability. The better idea is to drop the idea.

[Pierlesscruisers]

How does that work for the Alaskan cruises that are Seattle round trips? The only non-american port they visit is Victoria British Columbia. It doesn't seem awfully distant to me.

 

You are right, it is not a distant foreign port. But a distant foreign port is not required in this case. Why? Because the cruise has the same beginning and ending port, Seattle. Thus a distant foreign port is not required.

 

No port in Canada or Mexico is considered a "distant foreign port" which is why a Panama Canal trip from Florida to California will always stop at one of the ABC islands in the Carribean or in one of the South American ports. That covers them from PVSA violations.

 

Tom

[chengkp75]

As chengkp75 pointed out, what seems like an innocuous desire by yourself to disembark and reboard is actually a paperwork, security, and compliance nightmare for the cruise line, and even if they DID let you re-embark you would be subject to $600/per person fines from the gov't. If you were kicked off outright and not allowed to re-embark (the most likely scenario, with your belongings left pierside in Boston), you would still have $300/per person fine liability. The better idea is to drop the idea.

 

Technically, a violation of the PVSA does not subject the passenger to a fine, but the cruise line. CBP could care less who the passenger was. The cruise ticket contract is what gives the cruise line the ability to pass the fine on to the offending passenger.

[chengkp75]

To clarify the PVSA, there are two types of cruises from US ports; closed loop and open jaw.

 

A closed loop cruise leaves and returns to the same US port, like the Seattle, Vancouver, Alaska, Seattle cruises. These cruises only have to call at any foreign port to be legal.

 

An open jaw cruise leaves from one US port and returns to another US port. Say, for example, Seattle, Vancouver, Alaska, San Francisco. This cruise transports a passenger from one US port to another, and therefore must call at what the CBP defines as a "distant" foreign port. "Distant" foreign ports are defined by what they are not: no port in North America, Central America, Bermuda or the Caribbean is considered to be a "distant" foreign port. The so-called "ABC islands" of Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao are considered to be part of South America, so they are considered "distant" foreign ports. The above Seattle to San Francisco cruise would have to visit either Fanning Island in the Republic of Kiribati (700 miles south of Hawaii), or Buenaventura, Colombia on Colombia's Pacific coast to be legal.

[yuccaman]

Technically, a violation of the PVSA does not subject the passenger to a fine, but the cruise line. CBP could care less who the passenger was. The cruise ticket contract is what gives the cruise line the ability to pass the fine on to the offending passenger.

 

Yes, my perspective was that the passenger would have to pay the fine, no matter what the technicalities of whom-was-levying-whom were.

[tc1177]

Have your son pick you up from the port, spend the day with you and return you to the same port on the same day. A little less time with family but no violations, no potential fines and no potential of not being allowed to reboard :)

 

Good luck!!

[thinfool]

If this is an end of season repositioning cruise from Canada to Ft Lauderdale,

the PVSA problem would not occur for the first half of your journey if you begin in Quebec, City.

 

The second half is a clear violation as a cruise beginning in Rhode Island does not visit a 'distant' foreign port before docking in Ft Lauderdale.

 

Still, Princess is not going to allow a disembarkation in Boston without a reason that deserves PVSA exemption (usually severe illness or death).

 

As previously stated, a closed loop cruise from NYC cannot be interrupted in the manner stated. PVSA fines and penalties would apply.

 

Call Princess. Tell us what they say.

[donaldsc]

On our 2017 Canada/New England cruise, my wife and I would like to visit our son who lives in New Hampshire. In order to have a reasonable time to visit, we plan on leaving the ship in Boston and re-boarding in Newport, Rhode, Island, the following day.

 

We will advise the ship's authorities of our plan before we leave. Has anyone else done this and are there any problems we haven't foreseen?

 

Where does the cruise end? If it ends in NYC, it is not far from NYC to New Hampshire so visit him after the cruise. Seems like an obvious solution to me.

 

DON

[GUT2407]

How wouldn't this be contrary to the PSVA.

 

I must be dense.

[lstone19]

How wouldn't this be contrary to the PSVA.

 

 

 

I must be dense.

 

 

How would what be contrary to the PVSA? Unless you were responding to a post other than the one just before yours, the poster was suggesting a post-cruise visit. The PVSA, of course, does not regulate what you do before or after a cruise.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lwnbwlr]

The cruise I had planned on was Quebec City to Ft. Lauderdale.

 

I appreciate the lively discussion and helpful posts. I definitely will contact Princess before embarking on my plan.

 

I had never heard of the PVSA and can only surmise that if a federal law, in effect, prohibits cruise passengers from innocently skipping a U.S. port, it needs some serious amending.

[durangoscots]

You may be in violation of the Passenger Vessel Services Act, since your cruise could be considered as two separate cruises. You cannot cruise from one US port to another US port without stopping at a distant foreign port - and no Canadian port is considered a distant foreign port.

 

I was thinking that might be more feasible for cruises outside the U.S. You really need to consult Princess since both ports are within the U.S. different rules may easily apply.

 

Susan

[Shmoo here]

The cruise I had planned on was Quebec City to Ft. Lauderdale.

 

I appreciate the lively discussion and helpful posts. I definitely will contact Princess before embarking on my plan.

 

I had never heard of the PVSA and can only surmise that if a federal law, in effect, prohibits cruise passengers from innocently skipping a U.S. port, it needs some serious amending.

 

OK, while it is legal for you to go from Quebec City to Boston and get off the ship, you won't be able to reboard the next day in Rhode Island and end the cruise in Ft Lauderdale.

 

That being said, chengkp75 has already explained the process involved with someone debarking a ship mid cruise, and why most cruiselines no longer allow it. So you may or may not be allowed to board in Quebec City and debark in Boston. You will not be allowed to reboard the ship in Rhode Island and debark in Ft Lauderdale.

 

The PVSA was created to protect the US shipping industry many years ago. They didn't want foreign flagged ships to be able to transport passengers who just wished to travel from one place to another at a lower cost than what the US flagged ships were charging.

 

They made it so that foreign flagged ships are just providing pleasure cruises, not transportation cruises.

 

I wouldn't call "In order to have a reasonable time to visit, we plan on leaving the ship in Boston and re-boarding in Newport, Rhode, Island, the following day" an "innocent skipping of a port".

[lstone19]

 

I had never heard of the PVSA and can only surmise that if a federal law, in effect, prohibits cruise passengers from innocently skipping a U.S. port, it needs some serious amending.

 

 

That's not the purpose but it is a result of the law. The purpose of it is to protect U.S. shipping interests by requiring that only U.S. flagged ships are used in domestic "coastwise" voyages. While you may look at it as skipping part of your cruise, the law says you're making two voyages, one of which is domestic and restricted.

 

Similar laws apply to airlines. For instance, I can't fly Air Canada from LAX to NYC even if via Toronto.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[yuccaman]

I had never heard of the PVSA and can only surmise that if a federal law, in effect, prohibits cruise passengers from innocently skipping a U.S. port, it needs some serious amending.

 

It is from an old law that was meant to protect the shipping/passenger interests of US flagged ships, of which there are none in the cruising industry. (At least in recent decades- minus an experiment in Hawaii by NCL a while back. Before that, they had to haul butt to Vanuatu to get their foreign port in, I seem to remember, which was a stretch to make the schedule.) Yet, it's still taken seriously for passenger ships, even though on the passenger side, there will 'never' be any eligible ships. If you look at every cruise schedule, you will find a law-abiding foreign port for this reason.

Edited November 29, 2016 by yuccaman

[wheezedr]

It is from an old law that was meant to protect the shipping/passenger interests of US flagged ships, of which there are none in the cruising industry. (At least in recent decades- minus an experiment in Hawaii by NCL a while back. Before that, they had to haul butt to Vanuatu to get their foreign port in, I seem to remember, which was a stretch to make the schedule.) Yet, it's still taken seriously for passenger ships, even though on the passenger side, there will 'never' be any eligible ships. If you look at every cruise schedule, you will find a law-abiding foreign port for this reason.

 

Actually Norwegian's Pride of America is still US flagged and sailing around the islands. In addition the foreign flagged lines which do Hawaiian closed loops out of SF or LA now divert to Ensenada for a brief stop to satisfy the PVSA. When you go from Vancouver to Hawaii there is no need as you are departing from a foreign port. There are also a few US flagged ships doing the rivers of America .

[ar1950]

The cruise I had planned on was Quebec City to Ft. Lauderdale.

 

I appreciate the lively discussion and helpful posts. I definitely will contact Princess before embarking on my plan.

 

I had never heard of the PVSA and can only surmise that if a federal law, in effect, prohibits cruise passengers from innocently skipping a U.S. port, it needs some serious amending.

 

Here is a bit of explanation:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

[chengkp75]

The cruise I had planned on was Quebec City to Ft. Lauderdale.

 

I appreciate the lively discussion and helpful posts. I definitely will contact Princess before embarking on my plan.

 

I had never heard of the PVSA and can only surmise that if a federal law, in effect, prohibits cruise passengers from innocently skipping a U.S. port, it needs some serious amending.

 

While many here on CC feel that the PVSA only applies to cruise ships, and is therefore outdated since there is only one sea-going US flag cruise ship (Blount and Lindblad both operate smaller US flag ships), it really goes far beyond the small segment of the maritime industry that is cruising. It applies to every passenger vessel operating in US waters, that carry passengers "coastwise" (i.e. between US ports). This means that in addition to cruise ships, it applies to ferries, water taxis, commuter boats, sightseeing and whale watching boats, casino boats and even larger charter fishing boats. Take away the PVSA, and every one of these vessels could reflag to a foreign flag, and hire foreign crew, taking away thousands of US jobs and millions of dollars from the US economy.

 

And Wikipedia does not have the origins of the PVSA quite right. Back in the 1800's, there were many steamboats in US rivers and harbors that were blowing up and catching fire. To try to remedy this, the US passed the Steamboat Acts of 1838 and 1852, which required steamboats to be inspected by the Steamboat Inspection Service, the forerunner of the USCG Marine Inspection Bureau, which inspects cruise ships today. To get around the cost of meeting the inspections and the safety requirements, steamboat operators were flagging their ships in foreign countries, so the US retaliated by passing the PVSA, which requires all coastwise and domestic transportation of passengers to be on US flag vessels.

[yuccaman]

Actually Norwegian's Pride of America is still US flagged and sailing around the islands. In addition the foreign flagged lines which do Hawaiian closed loops out of SF or LA now divert to Ensenada for a brief stop to satisfy the PVSA. When you go from Vancouver to Hawaii there is no need as you are departing from a foreign port. There are also a few US flagged ships doing the rivers of America .

 

Cool, yes! Thanks for reminding me that the America was still there, and that it was only the Aloha that "came back here". Know about the LA & SF closed loops, but was thinking about the foreign-flagged Hawaii-embarking round trip cruises, that made that 10-day trip in the past... Remembering now that it was Fanning Island that they would squeeze in, a 2000+ mile round trip just to hit foreign soil! (Although I think a closed loop from LA or SF is such a cool itinerary- it's been on my wish list!)

[martincath]

The cruise I had planned on was Quebec City to Ft. Lauderdale.

Given that Quebec is quite feasibly reached from New Hampshire, the obvious solution seems to be to fly to NH and see your son pre-cruise, then get him to drive you up to QC! If there's some reason he can't cross the border, one-way car rentals into Canada are legal these days.

 

It's absolutely gorgeous countryside going from NH & VT into QC, we've done it ourselves in fall - you'll get some great leaf-peeping in. Driving through this area also means you can check the leaf reports and choose the prettiest route - you're near the end of the season so many areas will be past peak foliage.