Tipping at the beginning of your cruise?

[sloopsailor]

I think the critical point is getting a bit lost in the back and forth. With regard to the last question you asked sometimes people are offered signing bonuses. There's nothing wrong with that. What makes pre-tipping off-kilter is that it is a mechanism that goes behind the backs of the management of the cruise line to secure for one's self service superior to that the cruise line intends for, and promises to, all passengers in the same class. By all rights, if there is going to be a superior offering, it should be publicly available from the cruise line.

 

So this "bribing" of the crew is like ticket scalping - an advantage given to those with additional wealth and/or awareness of an unfair loophole.

 

Of course, life isn't fair.

 

However, that doesn't make unfairness or benefiting from it right. People who play by the rules should prevail over those who don't, even though it isn't generally the case. The matter of unfairness and unjust privilege should be raised. People who benefit from unfairness and unjust privilege need not be shielded from the less attractive aspects of what they engage in - you take the good with the bad. For most, they are pragmatic enough not to care. For the rest, those who are unhappy about their unjust privilege being exposed, it could be a wake-up call to reconsider the loopholes that they leverage.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

 

Hold on! I understood pre-tipping to be paying the tips with the final payment rather than after the cruise ends. To me it does not mean slipping cash to the staff when they introduce themselves. But, I can see where they can be confused with each other. Perhaps I should have written "Pre-paid tips" instead.

 

I am OK with Pre-Paid tips and daily charging of tips. I am not OK with cash tips in advance to secure preferential service or to be served before others.

[Toofarfromthesea]

I always tip at end of cruise, never at start. it feels to me like bribing and the message is , If I don' tip, you wo'n't provide good service. I don't much like that. JMO

 

 

I don't recall a nyone suggesgting up front tipping is not legal.

 

The people calling it bribery have done so by implication for the emotional response it evokes.

 

Because bribery IS illegal.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Toofarfromthesea

[sail7seas]

The people calling it bribery have done so by implication for the emotional response it evokes.

 

Because bribery IS illegal.

 

 

Some bribery must be and proba ly is illegal BUT I would like verificatioin THAT ALL BRIBERY IS ILLEGAL as is implied in your stat ement. . Sure, bribery of a public official, i is illegal, 'bribery' of a maitre d' in a restaurant , in an effort to get a better table is likely NOT illegal. Not all bribery is illega l and pre-tipping a crujise ship crew person is not illegal :)

Edited May 11, 2018 by sail7seas

[navybankerteacher]

Not at the very beginning but early in a cruise I might tip a bartender, server or steward $10 to encourage more attentiveness for the remainder of the voyage and continue the tip each day if I'm receiving priority service. Technically, it's not a bribe but a "facilitation payment."

 

How well it works varies but when it does and the bar is crowded before dinner it's always nice to go to the head of line.

 

"$10 to encourage more attentiveness" might be called a "facilitation payment" by someone who is reluctant to call it what it is: a bribe.

[bUU]

Hold on! I understood pre-tipping to be paying the tips with the final payment rather than after the cruise ends. To me it does not mean slipping cash to the staff when they introduce themselves. But, I can see where they can be confused with each other. Perhaps I should have written "Pre-paid tips" instead.

 

I am OK with Pre-Paid tips and daily charging of tips. I am not OK with cash tips in advance to secure preferential service or to be served before others.

You and I are on the same page.

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[davekathy]

Hold on! I understood pre-tipping to be paying the tips with the final payment rather than after the cruise ends. To me it does not mean slipping cash to the staff when they introduce themselves. But, I can see where they can be confused with each other. Perhaps I should have written "Pre-paid tips" instead.

 

I am OK with Pre-Paid tips and daily charging of tips. I am not OK with cash tips in advance to secure preferential service or to be served before others.

Right on!

[bUU]

Some bribe fry must be and proba ly is illegal BUT I would like verificatioin THAT ALL BRIBERY IS ILLEGAL as is implied in your stat ement. . Sure, bribery of a public official, i is illegal, 'bribery' of a maitre d' in a restaurant , in an efFORT TO GET A BETTER TABLE is likely NOT illegal. Not all bribery is illega l and pre-tipping a crujise ship crew person is not illegal :)

You raise a good point and you are correct that bribery is not always illegal.

 

I should point out though that bribery is often "more illegal" than it seems. In many nations, bribery is part of the way things get done. It is, if not explicitly then at least tacitly legal. However, there are governments outside those nations that would hold such legal bribery as illegal and punish those who commit such bribery, even though it happens outside their evident jurisdiction, and was legal where it took place. For example, the United States has the FCPA, which has, remarkably, in the past punished a German company for commiting bribery in Venezuela.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[Expat Cruise]

You raise a good point and you are correct that bribery is not always illegal.

 

I should point out though that bribery is often "more illegal" than it seems. In many nations, bribery is part of the way things get done. It is, if not explicitly then at least tacitly legal. However, there are governments outside those nations that would hold such legal bribery as illegal and punish those who commit such bribery, even though it happens outside their evident jurisdiction, and was legal where it took place. For example, the United States has the FCPA, which has, remarkably, in the past punished a German company for commiting bribery in Venezuela.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

 

If you are asked about "tea money" in Asia you will not be getting anything to drink, you will be paying bribes. Very common practice in SE Asia. Paying of bribes is part of the cost of doing business in many parts of the World. That said I still do not believe we should bride crew just to perform the job they are already paid to do.

[CaptnG]

Yep, I asked a simple question then it turned into this. I keep following for the entertainment.

 

 

 

I am sorry for my part in the train wreck this thread has become... [emoji85] I did try to answer your question. Should have kept my thoughts on tipping to myself I guess.. [emoji87]

 

What I don’t understand is why so many people that don’t believe in tipping would click on a thread about when to tip.. if you don’t tip, then you likely don’t have any advice about when to tip.

 

 

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[navybankerteacher]

If you are asked about "tea money" in Asia you will not be getting anything to drink, you will be paying bribes. Very common practice in SE Asia. Paying of bribes is part of the cost of doing business in many parts of the World. That said I still do not believe we should bride crew just to perform the job they are already paid to do.

 

 

It seems extraordinary to view paying bribes as "part of the cost of doing business in many parts of the World" -- and still rant against the concept of tipping for personal service when it is well performed.

 

Yes, they are paid to perform a job - but they are clearly paid very poorly -- it is then left to the recipients of that service to make up the difference: have you never heard of incentive compensation (which also helps to keep more of their earnings in the pockets of shipboard service providers rather than go to agency fees and taxes).

[bUU]

It seems extraordinary to view paying bribes as "part of the cost of doing business in many parts of the World" -- and still rant against the concept of tipping for personal service when it is well performed.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. In relating that bribery is common practice in business in other parts of the world, Expat Cruise is just describing the reality. I didn't see anyplace where Expat Cruise endorsed that reality; it was just a relating of facts as far as I could tell.

 

Yes, they are paid to perform a job - but they are clearly paid very poorly -- it is then left to the recipients of that service to make up the difference: have you never heard of incentive compensation (which also helps to keep more of their earnings in the pockets of shipboard service providers rather than go to agency fees and taxes).

Most of the world - and therefore much of what Americans purchase - is made by people who are "paid very poorly," unless we ensure that whatever it is is not only Made in USA but also that all the materials/ingredients were Made in USA. I'm sure you know that the stateroom attendants, dining room staff, and other crew members aboard cruise ships earn a good wage for their work as compared to their contemporaries back home.

 

Of course, none of that is legitimate excuse for any passengers to enrich themselves by failing to provide the crew members who serve them reasonable and appropriate gratuities as per the standards set by the cruise line.

[Expat Cruise]

It seems extraordinary to view paying bribes as "part of the cost of doing business in many parts of the World" -- and still rant against the concept of tipping for personal service when it is well performed.

 

Yes, they are paid to perform a job - but they are clearly paid very poorly -- it is then left to the recipients of that service to make up the difference: have you never heard of incentive compensation (which also helps to keep more of their earnings in the pockets of shipboard service providers rather than go to agency fees and taxes).

 

Just stating reality, never said I believe it is right. We (Westerners Americans) do not set the rules. If a country wants to make the daily pay one US Dollar a day that is their countries business.

 

Moving on to crews on cruise ships, if they are paid nothing, if they are made to work 20 hours a day, under fed, all these things are problems but not my problems to fix. As long as the cruise line operates within the laws of the place they operate, it is on them.

 

If others want to fix the world go ahead and do so. But do not try to ask passengers to fix the problems between the crew and the company. I consider tips to be what they are defined as "a optional reward freely given without obligation"

 

So to answer the OP question, I do not tip at the begining of the cruise, I tip when I believe a tip has been earned.

[bUU]

Moving on to crews on cruise ships, if they are paid nothing, if they are made to work 20 hours a day, under fed, all these things are problems but not my problems to fix. As long as the cruise line operates within the laws of the place they operate, it is on them.

Okay, I see what you're saying and I think I understand your worldview. What you're saying, though, is that you feel there is no moral obligation for someone to refuse benefits and privileges granted to them even when they understand that those benefits and privileges emanate from mistreatment of others. I cannot buy into that, at least not anymore.

 

My formal education was very much focused on engineering and business, and as a reflection of that strictly analytical tilt, I suppose I could have said something similar when I was younger. As I've gotten older, I've rounded out my education, studying religion, philosophy, ethics, and the human condition in general. My travels and volunteer work has exposed me to more different kinds of people, people in different circumstances - good people in drastically more desperate circumstances than I - both domestically and abroad. That education and those experiences have changed my perspectives in many ways. I've come to realized that a strictly analytical tilt is a pretty nasty slippery slope that at the end of it is the cause of a lot of suffering visited on others. I have come to prefer a more balanced perspective, pretty evenly balanced between the practical analysis and consideration of and compassion for others.

 

That perspective very substantially shapes the way I view service workers, whether they are the housekeepers in hotels, cab drivers, or restaurant servers - on land or at sea. If I'm going to ask them to do something for me then it is invariably a moral consideration: How is my conduct and behavior affecting them? Am I interacting with them in the spirit of justice, to the best of my ability, and am I being a good steward of the privilege I've been blessed with? I don't take a "vacation" from moral considerations, only from the daily work I do. Of course, each person has to make such decisions for themselves.

[Living4acruise2day]

Why can't people just do what they want? Last time I checked, it was a free country. You all have your points of view and I have mine. You are not going to change my mind by trying to convince me "your" way is the correct way. Some people on here, seem obsessed with trying to convince us they are right and spend endless time on the tipping threads, saying the same things over and over again.

[DirtyDawg]

Why can't people just do what they want? Last time I checked, it was a free country. You all have your points of view and I have mine. You are not going to change my mind by trying to convince me "your" way is the correct way. Some people on here, seem obsessed with trying to convince us they are right and spend endless time on the tipping threads, saying the same things over and over again.

 

Great post. Yes, some posters here "seem obsessed withtrying to convince us they are right and spend endless time on the tipping threads". For those posters this discussion site is really a pulpit site.

 

In the real-world people actually do what they want. Some will tip extra only at the end of a cruise. Others will only tip extra at the beginning of a cruise. Others still will tip extra at the end sometimes and at the beginning or in the middle at other times. Many cruisers will not tip extra at all. I would venture that 99.99% of actual cruises do not care one iota what is 'discussed' on an internet pulpit site.

[K32682]

Why can't people just do what they want? Last time I checked, it was a free country. You all have your points of view and I have mine. You are not going to change my mind by trying to convince me "your" way is the correct way. Some people on here, seem obsessed with trying to convince us they are right and spend endless time on the tipping threads, saying the same things over and over again.

Here's why that won't happen. The furious accusations of "bribery" conceal the true reason for their vigorous opposition. They are cheapskates. It is in their financial interests to berate anyone who tips in advance. If no one does they can be assured no one is getting an advantage over them.

[navybankerteacher]

Here's why that won't happen. The furious accusations of "bribery" conceal the true reason for their vigorous opposition. They are cheapskates. It is in their financial interests to berate anyone who tips in advance. If no one does they can be assured no one is getting an advantage over them.

 

"Furious accusations", "vigorous opposition", "cheapskates", "financial interests", "berate", "no one is getting an advantage": just a touch of hyperbole in defense of of an effort to gain advantage over others.

[K32682]

"Furious accusations", "vigorous opposition", "cheapskates", "financial interests", "berate", "no one is getting an advantage": just a touch of hyperbole in defense of of an effort to gain advantage over others.

There's no defense of the practice required. It is not illegal, not immoral, not banned by the cruise companies and available to everyone. There are officious busybodies who will condemn the practice who are too cheap to do it themselves and resent other people availing themselves of the opportunity.

 

Advance tipping works. If it didn't there would be posters declaring it "bribery, posturing, demeaning, flawed, off-kilter, unfair," done only be people "lacking interpersonal skills" or is an "insult to the employee."

[sloopsailor]

There's no defense of the practice required. It is not illegal, not immoral, not banned by the cruise companies and available to everyone. There are officious busybodies who will condemn the practice who are too cheap to do it themselves and resent other people availing themselves of the opportunity.

 

Advance tipping works. If it didn't there would be posters declaring it "bribery, posturing, demeaning, flawed, off-kilter, unfair," done only be people "lacking interpersonal skills" or is an "insult to the employee."

 

Sorry to burst your fantasy bubble, but it isn't because I am cheap. It is because I don't think of myself as so self important that I can't survive without paying extra for specialized service if I don't need it. Unlike some, I am perfectly satisfied with the service I get without feeling the need to pay more in the hopes of being treated better than everyone else. I am not that desperate for attention.

 

By all definitions, paying extra in advance in order to induce someone into doing something extra is indeed a bribe. All dictionaries describe it that way.

[bUU]

Advance tipping works. If it didn't there would be posters declaring it "bribery, posturing, demeaning, flawed, off-kilter, unfair," done only be people "lacking interpersonal skills" or is an "insult to the employee."

That is a nonsensical logical fallacy. There are numerous reasons for advocating against advance tipping. The fact that there are some reasons does NOT preclude the other reasons.

 

As others have already addressed in the thread, many people receive service just as wonderful regardless of whether they have tipped in advance.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[K32682]

Sorry to burst your fantasy bubble, but it isn't because I am cheap. It is because I don't think of myself as so self important that I can't survive without paying extra for specialized service if I don't need it. Unlike some, I am perfectly satisfied with the service I get without feeling the need to pay more in the hopes of being treated better than everyone else. I am not that desperate for attention.

 

By all definitions, paying extra in advance in order to induce someone into doing something extra is indeed a bribe. All dictionaries describe it that way.

If you don't wish improved service then don't do it. Those of us who do can do so entirely guilt free. No laws broken, no rules broken, nothing immoral has taken place. We can enjoy the benefits and you can wait until we are served. You'll survive, I'll enjoy and the server has more money. Everybody is happy.

 

That is a nonsensical logical fallacy. There are numerous reasons for advocating against advance tipping. The fact that there are some reasons does NOT preclude the other reasons.

 

As others have already addressed in the thread, many people receive service just as wonderful regardless of whether they have tipped in advance.

What reasons have you cited other than some vague moralistic rumblings about "fairness, compassion" and "moral considerations."

 

At least the tightwads have a practical interest in suppressing the practice.

 

Life is not fair and if your standards are suitably low then any service is "wonderful." We have seen several posters report advance tipping does improve service.

[FredT]

Soooo..... If tipping in advance is a "crime"... Is telling a waiter or bartender on the first day that if he gives you EXEMPLARY service you will tip him really well at the end of the cruise also a "crime"?

[PTMary]

If you don't wish improved service then don't do it. Those of us who do can do so entirely guilt free. No laws broken, no rules broken, nothing immoral has taken place. We can enjoy the benefits and you can wait until we are served. You'll survive, I'll enjoy and the server has more money. Everybody is happy.

 

 

What reasons have you cited other than some vague moralistic rumblings about "fairness, compassion" and "moral considerations."

 

At least the tightwads have a practical interest in suppressing the practice.

 

Life is not fair and if your standards are suitably low then any service is "wonderful." We have seen several posters report advance tipping does improve service.

 

Here's why that won't happen. The furious accusations of "bribery" conceal the true reason for their vigorous opposition. They are cheapskates. It is in their financial interests to berate anyone who tips in advance. If no one does they can be assured no one is getting an advantage over them.

 

When a person resorts to insults and innuendo to support his side of an argument, his desperation is showing in a feeble attempt to salvage whatever minuscule amount of credibility he may have left. :rolleyes:

[navybankerteacher]

If you don't wish improved service then don't do it.

 

...

 

Life is not fair and if your standards are suitably low then any service is "wonderful." We have seen several posters report advance tipping does improve service.

 

Most normal people are happy with the normal GOOD SERVICE received - and feel no need to throw money around - apparently to get oneself to the front of the line.

 

I don’t think anyone is condemning the practice - rather just expressing the view that it is demeaning to the recipient - and a somewhat pathetic demonstration of self-importance.

 

If it makes someone feel good to buy preferential treatment - it may be because they have some special need, I am not going to argue against needed psychic self-medication.

[DirtyDawg]

When a person resorts to insults and innuendo to support his side of an argument, his desperation is showing in a feeble attempt to salvage whatever minuscule amount of credibility he may have left. :rolleyes:

 

Agreed, but also quote others who resort to the same practice.

 

Unlike some, I am perfectly satisfied with the service I get without feeling the need to pay more in the hopes of being treated better than everyone else. I am not that desperate for attention.

 

Both sides of this "debate" have resorted to " insults and innuendo to support his side of an argument, his desperation is showing in a feeble attempt to salvage whatever minuscule amount of credibility he may have left. "

 

I won't be tipping K32682 or sloopsailer for their performance on this thread......... I hope you won't be either.

 

(Yep, no Cheetos for you guys! :))

 

(Read the other tipping thread if you want to know what that is all about.)

Edited May 12, 2018 by DirtyDawg