"pure chaos" as Sunshine lists

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, nyo1011 said:

does make you stop and think and remember you are on a ship at sea. my family has only been on one cruise. I have two teenage boys who roamed the ship all day. It was great! Party all day! biggest concern was chair hogs!  We are going on our second cruise on the Horizon in June. Last night we had a conversation about possible scenarios that could happen on a ship and what to do in each case and having a meeting place. I know we have a mustard station but last time ours was the dining room might be difficult to find each other if everyone else is meeting there.

 

How fast does a ship list? what if you are standing at the railing? Can you be thrown off?    

 

The one I was on was slow. I was up on deck in a lounge chair and it felt like being on the pirate ship ride at an amusement park. (One of the first few swings). The whole side of the ship lifted way up and then went way down. The pools splashed out, my lounge chair didn’t move at all. Frankly didn’t feel even slightly in danger. Might have been more freaky if you had been standing at a railing but no danger of falling overboard.

 

But I’m not easily alarmed. My general rule of thumb is to base my reactions off the ‘regulars’. The staff was not alarmed so I didn’t worry about it. Had a similar situation in Hawaii recently. Experienced my first earth quake. Locals didn’t miss a beat so I didn’t worry about it. Others in my group were screaming and running around. Which, btw, does not make it stop

Edited November 2, 2018 by sanger727

[tallyho8]

1 hour ago, woodman said:

I love the post hopping that more people will pay attention to the muster drill. If the ship must be abandoned then you will see pure panic and all the muster drills in the world will not get you to orderly proceed to your cabin and get your life preserver and then proceed to your assigned muster station. LOL  Most people will jump into the first life boat they get to. Sorry I have seen a mob in panic mode.

I wonder if there was much panic on the Concordia. Most of the reports that I read did not mention extreme panic among the passengers.

[Thorncroft]

9 minutes ago, tallyho8 said:

I wonder if there was much panic on the Concordia. Most of the reports that I read did not mention extreme panic among the passengers.

 

They may not have realized that they were sinking, at first.  It seems that the captain wasn't very forthcoming about how dire the situation was.  You can't react to something that you don't know is happening.  I'm sure that panic ramped up as it became clear that their three hour tour was doomed. 

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, nyo1011 said:

does make you stop and think and remember you are on a ship at sea. my family has only been on one cruise. I have two teenage boys who roamed the ship all day. It was great! Party all day! biggest concern was chair hogs!  We are going on our second cruise on the Horizon in June. Last night we had a conversation about possible scenarios that could happen on a ship and what to do in each case and having a meeting place. I know we have a mustard station but last time ours was the dining room might be difficult to find each other if everyone else is meeting there.

 

How fast does a ship list? what if you are standing at the railing? Can you be thrown off?    

The ship can list fairly quickly, with turn induced heel, as I suspect this is, it could reach 15-20* of heel within a minute.  Even with rolling, which is the repetitive heeling from one side to the other, it would take an incredible amount of force to lift a 180 lb person off the deck and over a 54" high railing.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Tapi said:

chengkp75: 

 

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I’ve always wondered what would be considered a dangerous angle on cruise ships. My expertise is with airplanes, where a standard rate of turn is at a 30 degree bank angle and which is uneventful and causes very little reaction from passengers. Your explanation helps me understand how differently a cruise ship reacts to the laws of physics. 

Two different fluids we are traveling through, and you are traveling in 3 dimensions instead of the ship's two dimensions.

 

While a 30* heel will cause significant damage to articles left loose around the ship, and can cause significant injury to people who are not prepared for it, it still isn't a "dangerous" angle in terms of ship safety.  Due to the interaction between the center of buoyancy of the ship, and it's center of gravity, the farther a ship heels or rolls to one side, the greater the force the ship generates to swing itself back upright.  This is true for most ships right up to about 60-75* of heel.  The only problem is that at these angles of roll, the upper deck (promenade deck on a cruise ship) tends to enter the water at the low side, and the non-watertight doors on this deck will allow water to downflood the ship, changing the entire stability calculation.

[bury me at sea]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

. . . This is true for most ships right up to about 60-75* of heel.  The only problem is that at these angles of roll, the upper deck (promenade deck on a cruise ship) tends to enter the water at the low side, and the non-watertight doors on this deck will allow water to downflood the ship, changing the entire stability calculation.

 

That would be scary.

[chengkp75]

40 minutes ago, tallyho8 said:

I wonder if there was much panic on the Concordia. Most of the reports that I read did not mention extreme panic among the passengers.

One thing that most folks don't understand about the Concordia, is that for the first two hours after the allision, the ship was not listing more than 10-15*, well within the parameters of launching lifeboats and rafts.  It was only when the ship touched bottom, again, at her final resting spot, that the free-surface effect of the water in the hull caused her to heel over on her side, using the point of contact with the bottom as the pivot point.  Had she stayed well offshore, she would have sank upright, and down by the stern.

 

From my studies, there was some panic caused by the blackout, and the initial response to send folks away from the muster stations, and that panic built after the final grounding and the ship heeling over.

[shdixon]

17 hours ago, Out of Iowa said:

due to a stabilizer problem, according to a note to passengers; on the evening TV news here, they reported it lasted just one minute....another report said "hours"

 

https://nypost.com/2018/11/01/pure-chaos-as-carnival-cruise-ship-tilts-on-its-side-at-sea/

 

 

Im sure they were terrified. A minute feels like forever when you feel like you are in danger. A massive ship continuing to lean to the side is dangerous. Luckily there were no injuries

[bury me at sea]

chengkp doesn't need me to defend him/her, but many of us here wait for and appreciate hearing "the rest of the story" as provided by this poster.

 

Happy, and safe sailing.

[chengkp75]

24 minutes ago, InitialD said:

 

 

It could have been a stabilizer. From Wikipedia: 'Ship stabilizers are fins or rotors mounted beneath the waterline and emerging laterally from the hull to reduce a ship's roll due to wind or waves. Active fins are controlled by a gyroscopic control system. When the gyroscope senses the ship roll, it changes the fins' angle of attack to exert force to counteract the roll."

 

So the stabilizer likely turned to a sharp angle of attack, forcing one side of the ship to either rise or dip down drastically. 

Having worked with stabilizers, I have a pretty good idea of what they can and can't do.  Stabilizers don't really reduce the roll of the vessel, they simply turn the very quick "snap roll" that is inherent with tall cruise ships (and which is uncomfortable) into a slower roll that is more comfortable.  The force exerted by the stabilizer is orders of magnitude less than the force the ship generates to right itself.  What a stabilizer does is to create a smaller force that is "out of synch" with the roll period of the ship, creating a longer "sine wave" of roll angle, meaning it takes longer to roll from one side to the other.

[shipgeeks]

Formica tabletops, no tablecloths.  It wouldn't take much to make the dishes slide off.

[CodyMiles1994]

I just came off this cruise and posted a full review. 

[Cruiser_1977]

I think my post was deleted... If the letter below is the one to which SamTing is referring, I read it mean that

1) there was a mechanical issue (switchboard malfunction)

2) the mechanical issue led to stabilizers not working

3) because they weren't working, other things cause the ship to list

4) once the issue was corrected (quickly) the ship was stabilized

Thus, the stabilizers didn't cause the list...the list was caused because the stabilizers weren't doing their job.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by JennyB1977

[jagsfan]

We were on a Disney ship that spent hours listing to port because of the outer bands of a hurricane. The list was strong enough that rain water came under the balcony door, through the cabin and out into the corridor. I spent the night up against the wall because the other side of my bed was uphill. One granddaughter got out out of her upper berth and into my daughter’s bed; the younger one slept through it. The next day she said she loved it when the ship was all bumpy. 

If anyone panicked, we never heard about it. 

 

All of the carpeting on the starboard side was soaked. Anything on the floor in the cabins was soaked. By the time we got back to Canaveral three days later, the mold smell was incredible. 

When we disembarked, we saw all of the rolls of carpet on the wharf waiting to be installed. 

I was told later the ship sailed on time. 

[canoncruiser]

Way back in the day, I was crossing on the SS France, it was very turbulent and windy on deck; and one afternoon I was having a massage; there were two other gents having massages. We were well down in the ship where the gym was. One of the other gents was the Captain-well the ship took on an extraordinary list which caused the masseurs to keep us from falling off the tables! The Captain leaped for the phone and in very colorful French asked what the h...... was going on. He was informed that the ship-as big as she was - had been slammed broadside by very powerful sustained winds-hence the list. It was an experience let me tell you! . Things calmed down and cocktails and French Line cuisine sorted us right out.  

[NWACruiser]

We were on the Legend in Alaska last year when it made an emergency turn.  The ship turned port side suddenly.  We were on the MDR having brunch.  The dining room staff had to keep things from falling off their workstations.  The list lasted for about 20 seconds.  Then we made an easier turn starboard to get back on track.  I looked out the starboard side and thought I saw a dead great white shark.

 

The captain explained they avoided the shark due to potential damage by hitting other animals feeding on it.

[deadmoney]

Glad we were not on that ship, my wife would have freaked out big time.

[mredandchis]

On 11/2/2018 at 6:40 AM, chengkp75 said:

Okay, here's my take on this.  First off, I call BS on the stabilizers causing this.  Stabilizers do not stop rolling, they merely slow it down to a comfortable level, and no fin stabilizer existing on a ship today has the force able to make a ship list and continue to list.  I will pretty much bet the farm that this is exactly the same thing that has happened to a couple of Princess ships a couple of years ago, and to the Norwegian Sky back in 2002, that I know about, and likely several other cases.  This is "turn induced heeling".  When a ship turns, there is a centrifugal force that tries to keep the ship moving in a straight line, and since the turning force is underwater where the azipods or rudders are, the force acts up higher on the ship, leaning it out, away from the turn.  The faster the ship is going, and the more the rudders are turned, the more force is produced to heel the ship over.  This is why cruise ships (and really any ship) going at sea speeds will limit helm maneuvers to only a few degrees of rudder, unless it is an emergency.  My guess is that there was either a glitch in the autopilot, or an "operator error" when changing course while on autopilot that caused a significant helm order from the autopilot to the steering, and this caused the heeling, especially since it lasted only a minute, as the bridge officer would have noticed the error immediately and corrected.

 

Plates and such will start to slide at around 15* of heel, nowhere near a dangerous angle.  The Norwegian Sky incident I noted above heeled the ship about 30*, virtually every plate and glass onboard was broken, and over 100 guests were sent to hospital, some for broken bones, in Vancouver, so if there were no injuries, this was not a serious heel.

 

As for the comment that a glitch that causes ballast to be moved too quickly can cause a heel like this, that just isn't so, you physically cannot move hundreds of tons of water that quickly.  This was most likely the other significant cause of heeling, "wind induced heel", where the ship changes course, and the wind is now more or less on the side of the ship, and the ship acts like a sail, and heels over from the force of the wind.  Ballast, fuel, and drinking water will then be needed to be moved to correct the heel, but this takes a while, as again, you can't move tons of liquids as quickly as the ship can heel over.  Then with the liquids loaded asymmetrically to counteract the wind, if the ship changes course again, or the wind dies down, that asymmetrical load suddenly causes the ship to heel over the other way, until the liquid can be moved back.

 

As a note, cruise ships carry very little ballast, and major shifts to correct heeling is done with fuel and drinking water.

Now there you go, a logical explanation.  I have been on a cruise that the side wind was very strong and you could see the lean in the hallway.  I was walking down the hall being careful and 3 young ladies were approaching and obviously having partaken of a fair amount of liquid joy.  They were giggling and one said I tell you this ship is leaning.  Another said here come a guy lets ask him.  I said naw it isnt leaning at all.  They were laughing and the one said see, you are just drunk.  

[Jdfireman]

Everyone wants their 5 minutes of fame/  Call the media they say 

[April42749]

We were just on NCL Escape and there was a talk by the engineer.  He said that ship (it was a little rocky at the time) could go over 65 degrees without a problem.  We were at 2 degrees and feeling it.

[emdia43]

It sounds like the Crown Princess "technical error" listing in 2006.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Princess_(ship)

[CdrescherRBL152]

On 11/1/2018 at 10:22 PM, Cruiser 4 Life 66 said:

Pics, video, and Captain's note here.

Looked a little more serious than when a ship is docking with thrusters.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6342569/Carnival-Cruise-Line-apologizes-ship-lists-just-hours-leaving-Florida-port.html

After reading the story, watching the video and looking at the pictures. See nothing other then lose items that slide to the floor. From what I have read there has been no reported injuries. Which leads me to conclude that Carnival's report that it was a 15 to 25 degrees that last apx. 60 seconds sounds logical.  I am sure that for those on board that it was not a pleasant time. However it was no where as serious as some are trying to make it out to be.  For those who want to try stand with your feet shoulder width apart. Place on foot a block 2 to 3 inches thick. Strighten both legs you will be standing at roughly 20 degrees.

 

[pscozz702]

My family and I were on the Carnival Legend in 2005  just got up to cruising speed and started to list about 14 degrees and glass started to fly off the shelves. The pool flooded half of the buffet and at least 1 passenger fell and injured himself. The CD not the Captain made an announcement that there was a glitch in the autopilot that caused the ship to turn left at 21 knots. They turned the autopilot off and sailed manually, throughout the night they made repairs to the system. We didn't receive any onboard credit or even a free drink, just taken as part of the adventure of life. My DW and I were in our starboard side balcony looking at nothing but sky and she said "this isn't right" I just laughed and didn't tell her that if we didn't stop we would go over. We went to check on our kids, they were fine as were everyone else except for that one injury. Sorry if I sound uncaring, I am far from that, but life is an adventure and they all lived, tell your stories - shock the people you tell them to and laugh, life is short enjoy it. Passengers were running around with life jackets saying "Titanic", that really irks me because the Titanic sank and over 1500 souls were lost, we didn't. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by pscozz702
wrong date

[bury me at sea]

Any reference to the Titanic in connection with this incident is completely beyond the pale.

[Thorncroft]

Lists feel worse than they really are. If you could actually see the ship from the outside, you'd say, oh, there's nothing to this. 

 

I used to work on Boeing Jetfoils for a company in Japan and we would regularly do turns at 5°-15°, but could take them up to 20°-25° if necessary. We tried to keep them gentle sweeps for passenger comfort, but they always felt like we were banking more than we actually were. Fun stuff at 45 knots.