"pure chaos" as Sunshine lists

[bury me at sea]

Thanks for your eye witness description.  I am glad that you, all other passengers, and the stellar crew all "lived to tell about it," and that there were no serious injuries.

Happy sailing.

[sfaaa]

Sounds like quite a thrilling cruise. Exactly what fun ship is all about. 

[CruisinCrow]

Thank you for sharing your experience, MimiRN!  There's too much speculation on here sometimes and it's good to hear what it was like from someone who was actually there.  I'm glad no one was hurt any worse although it must have been truly scary.

[CodyMiles1994]

1 hour ago, MimiRN said:

Our Captain was replaced in Amber Cove, guess that is protocol after a significant incident.

 

I was on the same cruise and this statement, like most of this incident is false. We spoke with our captain Lorenzo on the final sea Day after the Debarkation show. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by CodyMiles1994
Typo

[MimiRN]

30 minutes ago, CodyMiles1994 said:

 

I was on the same cruise and this statement, like most of this incident is false. We spoke with our captain Lorenzo on the final sea Day after the Debarkation show. 

That makes me think he was returned to the ship after an investigation because the hub app had his replacement Captain on it Wednesday morning??  And again, I wrote about my experience.  You may have a different perspective based on your experience. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by MimiRN

[bury me at sea]

I find this very interesting and enlightening.  No wonder eye witness testimony is so often discounted in court proceedings.

 

What angle was it viewed from, what deck, what part of the ship, and even, apparently, what date and time?

 

I have no reason to distrust either poster.  I have read others reports that the Captain was replaced, and that the Captain wasn't replaced.

 

I don't particularly care one way or the other, but it's fascinating to hear about this from different perspectives and different time lines.

 

Thanks to all who have taken the time to describe personal experiences.

[ProgRockCruiser]

18 hours ago, MimiRN said:

We were on this cruise.   I  will tell you what we experienced.   We were eating dinner on the 3rd tier of the dining room.   We heard a strange scratching noise and the ship started to take a sharp left turn and started the infamous list.   The list lasted between 1 and 2 minutes.   Dishes, glasses, tables, chairs and people started tumbling to the floor.   I saw 2 guys tumble over the dining room railing. 

As pointed out, there are only two decks to the aft dining room, and one deck to the forward.  Unless you mean three tiers for the aft MDR due to the slightly lower section on the edges of the lower level?  (Like a three stair drop).

 

As for anyone tumbling over the railing from that upper tier - those railings look to be at least three feet high, which I believe is the OSHA-equivalent that Carnival would be held to.  A 25 deg list isn't going to cause someone to tumble over that, unless they had a head of steam and were very tall. Maybe over the stairway railing, I suppose I could see that.  Was it a stairway railing?

[SailBreakaway]

On 11/2/2018 at 2:32 PM, chengkp75 said:

Having worked with stabilizers, I have a pretty good idea of what they can and can't do.  Stabilizers don't really reduce the roll of the vessel, they simply turn the very quick "snap roll" that is inherent with tall cruise ships (and which is uncomfortable) into a slower roll that is more comfortable.  The force exerted by the stabilizer is orders of magnitude less than the force the ship generates to right itself.  What a stabilizer does is to create a smaller force that is "out of synch" with the roll period of the ship, creating a longer "sine wave" of roll angle, meaning it takes longer to roll from one side to the other.

Thank you sir for this explanation. As a transport jet pilot, my assumption was these acted as ailerons do for an aircraft, however seems they don’t have the surface area to create enough lift/force/pressure to induce or reduce roll themselves. They would have to be huge to have enough surface area to do so. Great explanation thanks. 

[Joebucks]

A bunch of pearl clutchers whining about a minute of inconvenience. First world problems at their finest.

 

This is another instance of the muster drill preparing the passengers for absolutely nothing.

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

A bunch of pearl clutchers whining about a minute of inconvenience. First world problems at their finest.

 

This is another instance of the muster drill preparing the passengers for absolutely nothing.

What, pray tell, did muster drill have to do with this?  There was no emergency signal sounded, nor was there even a "code" announcement.  Muster drill is to prepare the passengers for a real emergency, and to follow instructions.  Since no instructions were needed to be passed, there was no need to have passengers "prepared" for anything.

[Joebucks]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

What, pray tell, did muster drill have to do with this?  There was no emergency signal sounded, nor was there even a "code" announcement.  Muster drill is to prepare the passengers for a real emergency, and to follow instructions.  Since no instructions were needed to be passed, there was no need to have passengers "prepared" for anything.

 

Because the people don't know what is an emergency and what is not. People aren't panicking and crying during a one-minute list because they think it's going to be over soon. 

[chengkp75]

22 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

Because the people don't know what is an emergency and what is not. People aren't panicking and crying during a one-minute list because they think it's going to be over soon. 

So, they should announce at muster drill every instance that is an emergency, and those that are not?  How long is that list?  Who decides at what point a ship heeling over 10-15* changes from an accident to an emergency?  Do you differentiate in your "list of emergencies" between a steering error that causes a list, or a burst pipe in the engine room causing flooding and listing?  How long do you think muster drill would take in that instance?  Besides, the main function of muster drill is not to tell the passengers what to do in every eventuality, it is to "herd" the passengers to limited and known locations on the ship so they are accounted for and in controllable locations and groups.  Basically, passenger muster is to get the passengers out of our way, and let the crew get on with the emergency.

[Joebucks]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, they should announce at muster drill every instance that is an emergency, and those that are not?  How long is that list?  Who decides at what point a ship heeling over 10-15* changes from an accident to an emergency?  Do you differentiate in your "list of emergencies" between a steering error that causes a list, or a burst pipe in the engine room causing flooding and listing?  How long do you think muster drill would take in that instance?  Besides, the main function of muster drill is not to tell the passengers what to do in every eventuality, it is to "herd" the passengers to limited and known locations on the ship so they are accounted for and in controllable locations and groups.  Basically, passenger muster is to get the passengers out of our way, and let the crew get on with the emergency.

 

I don't intend on arguing with you on cruising technicalities, that is something I would never even come close to matching your amazing level of expertise on. I was just voicing a somewhat related/unrelated opinion of the muster drill process, which I think is a joke. I guess it is my first world problem to stand there for a long time while inconsiderate people show up late, delay the briefing, talk, and have no idea what is going on. Then if something happens, people still have no idea what a true emergency is.

 

I agree with you and it reinforces my point that there is no point of sitting there and listening because there is nothing for the passengers to learn. The most important function is like you stated for them to know where to go to be "herded" up when they hear the word. A quick check-in with that station when you board the ship, within the first few hours, should suffice.

[coevan]

On ‎11‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:43 PM, Out of Iowa said:

I have no idea why this is here

 

 

However it is Maritime law, the cruise lines have to comply. Carnival needs to stress the importance prior to the cruise so guests are aware of the importance. If everyone showed up as instructed the entire process could be done in 15 minutes

Edited November 5, 2018 by coevan

[LuckyStar]

On 11/2/2018 at 4:40 AM, chengkp75 said:

Okay, here's my take on this.  First off, I call BS on the stabilizers causing this.  Stabilizers do not stop rolling, they merely slow it down to a comfortable level, and no fin stabilizer existing on a ship today has the force able to make a ship list and continue to list.  I will pretty much bet the farm that this is exactly the same thing that has happened to a couple of Princess ships a couple of years ago, and to the Norwegian Sky back in 2002, that I know about, and likely several other cases.  This is "turn induced heeling".  When a ship turns, there is a centrifugal force that tries to keep the ship moving in a straight line, and since the turning force is underwater where the azipods or rudders are, the force acts up higher on the ship, leaning it out, away from the turn.  The faster the ship is going, and the more the rudders are turned, the more force is produced to heel the ship over.  This is why cruise ships (and really any ship) going at sea speeds will limit helm maneuvers to only a few degrees of rudder, unless it is an emergency.  My guess is that there was either a glitch in the autopilot, or an "operator error" when changing course while on autopilot that caused a significant helm order from the autopilot to the steering, and this caused the heeling, especially since it lasted only a minute, as the bridge officer would have noticed the error immediately and corrected.

 

Plates and such will start to slide at around 15* of heel, nowhere near a dangerous angle.  The Norwegian Sky incident I noted above heeled the ship about 30*, virtually every plate and glass onboard was broken, and over 100 guests were sent to hospital, some for broken bones, in Vancouver, so if there were no injuries, this was not a serious heel.

 

As for the comment that a glitch that causes ballast to be moved too quickly can cause a heel like this, that just isn't so, you physically cannot move hundreds of tons of water that quickly.  This was most likely the other significant cause of heeling, "wind induced heel", where the ship changes course, and the wind is now more or less on the side of the ship, and the ship acts like a sail, and heels over from the force of the wind.  Ballast, fuel, and drinking water will then be needed to be moved to correct the heel, but this takes a while, as again, you can't move tons of liquids as quickly as the ship can heel over.  Then with the liquids loaded asymmetrically to counteract the wind, if the ship changes course again, or the wind dies down, that asymmetrical load suddenly causes the ship to heel over the other way, until the liquid can be moved back.

 

As a note, cruise ships carry very little ballast, and major shifts to correct heeling is done with fuel and drinking water.

 

Totally over my head.  What I read: Blah, blah, blah, Princess.  Blah, blah, blah, Norwegian.  You seem to know what you speak of.  Hope you are on my next cruise if this happens. Thanks for the info.  😉

[mouche]

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

A bunch of pearl clutchers whining about a minute of inconvenience. First world problems at their finest.

 

This is another instance of the muster drill preparing the passengers for absolutely nothing.

I was on this cruise also, shame on you Joebucks, I pray you are never on a ship that this happens, you have no idea in that minute, if the ship will stop turning over. Once the ship did stop, people had cuts, bruises, and one man was laid out on the floor in the casino unable to stand. People were afraid, walking around with life jackets the rest of the night, a lot of first time cruisers were very upset in the moment and the rest of the night. Things got better the next day, a few left the ship once we docked in Amber Cove, it was never far from anyone's mind the whole cruise that it could happen again especially since the ship had a problem on the prior sailing that cause them to miss ports. As far as the crew, some were just as upset and afraid as some of the passengers were. It was not a great way to start a cruise.

[mouche]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 6:58 AM, CdrescherRBL152 said:

After reading the story, watching the video and looking at the pictures. See nothing other then lose items that slide to the floor. From what I have read there has been no reported injuries. Which leads me to conclude that Carnival's report that it was a 15 to 25 degrees that last apx. 60 seconds sounds logical.  I am sure that for those on board that it was not a pleasant time. However it was no where as serious as some are trying to make it out to be.  For those who want to try stand with your feet shoulder width apart. Place on foot a block 2 to 3 inches thick. Strighten both legs you will be standing at roughly 20 degrees.

 

I was on this cruise, people had cuts and bruises, one man was laid out on the casino floor unable to stand, I saw people fall backwards out of chairs, a couple of elderly ladies hurt their backs. That is just what I saw, not to mention what others share while we were on board. Unless you were there, just reading and watching videos of this incident would not show the whole picture. I pray this never happens to you and yours while on a cruise, and should it, I pray that people are not so judgmental about an experience that didn't happen to them. 

[rolloman]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, they should announce at muster drill every instance that is an emergency, and those that are not?  How long is that list?  Who decides at what point a ship heeling over 10-15* changes from an accident to an emergency?  Do you differentiate in your "list of emergencies" between a steering error that causes a list, or a burst pipe in the engine room causing flooding and listing?  How long do you think muster drill would take in that instance?  Besides, the main function of muster drill is not to tell the passengers what to do in every eventuality, it is to "herd" the passengers to limited and known locations on the ship so they are accounted for and in controllable locations and groups.  Basically, passenger muster is to get the passengers out of our way, and let the crew get on with the emergency.

More nonsense.....The muster drill is to have passengers familiar with their safe evacuation in the event of an emergency. It also allows for passengers to become familiar with escape routes. If as you say, it was to get them out of the way, the Captain would simply send everyone to their cabin until further notice. Secondly, what exactly would be wrong with explaining during the muster drill the fact the ship is operating in an environment which may result in a sharp list/tilt? Passengers should use hand rails when using the stairs, wear appropriate shoes etc. They spend time talking about washing your hands during the drill so it would not be out of the ordinary to add other key issues which semi frequently occur during the talk. They certainly explain turbulence when flying and it basically is the same concept on a ship at sea. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by rolloman

[sanmarcosman]

5 minutes ago, rolloman said:

Passengers should use hand rails when using the stairs, wear appropriate shoes 

They do give these instructions now. This is part of the verbal instructions and announcements at the muster drill and passengers are reminded " you are on a moving ship...always use handrails on the stairs" etc. 

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, rolloman said:

More nonsense.....The muster drill is to have passengers familiar with their safe evacuation in the event of an emergency. It also allows for passengers to become familiar with escape routes. If as you say, it was to get them out of the way, the Captain would simply send everyone to their cabin until further notice. Secondly, what exactly would be wrong with explaining during the muster drill the fact the ship is operating in an environment which may result in a sharp list/tilt? Passengers should use hand rails when using the stairs, wear appropriate shoes etc. They spend time talking about washing your hands during the drill so it would not be out of the ordinary to add other key issues which semi frequently occur during the talk. They certainly explain turbulence when flying and it basically is the same concept on a ship at sea. 

So, the Captain sends everyone to their cabins, including those whose cabins are in the fire zone, or above it?   Now that is nonsense.  And sending folks to 2000 locations is not placing them under the crew's control.  Yes, it is to show the evacuation route (though how many actually think of alternative routes based on their current location on the ship, and any possible obstructions to evacuation like closed off fire zones), but the main purpose of passenger drill is accountability, so that the emergency teams can deal with the emergency and not have to divert assets to finding passengers who may or may not actually be in danger, simply because they aren't under the crew's observation and control.

[rolloman]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, the Captain sends everyone to their cabins, including those whose cabins are in the fire zone, or above it?   Now that is nonsense.  And sending folks to 2000 locations is not placing them under the crew's control.  Yes, it is to show the evacuation route (though how many actually think of alternative routes based on their current location on the ship, and any possible obstructions to evacuation like closed off fire zones), but the main purpose of passenger drill is accountability, so that the emergency teams can deal with the emergency and not have to divert assets to finding passengers who may or may not actually be in danger, simply because they aren't under the crew's observation and control.

Spin away Cheng....my response was directly related to your claim of the muster drill is to get passengers to get out of the way. While this may be a "welcome" result of the drill it certainly is not "basically" what the drill is for.  

[rolloman]

30 minutes ago, sanmarcosman said:

They do give these instructions now. This is part of the verbal instructions and announcements at the muster drill and passengers are reminded " you are on a moving ship...always use handrails on the stairs" etc. 

Some do some don't, I am getting close to 100 civilian cruises and I can tell you it is more miss than hit. I question the level of seriousness applied to these drills. It seems it has turned into more of a passenger count than a emergency drill. You can YouTube a few drills where the cruise director turns it into his own comedy show and then when events like this take place you get passengers freaking out, in most cases for no reason.  I have spent years at sea and I can tell you on a cruise ship my biggest fear is unaware panicking passengers. It might actually be a good idea for the cruise lines to provide a mandatory tutorial video as a pre-requisite to passengers prior to boarding. Possibly at home while they fill out their embarkation forms.  

Edited November 5, 2018 by rolloman

[sfaaa]

1 hour ago, mouche said:

. Things got better the next day, a few left the ship once we docked in Amber Cove, 

People like them should never fly or cruise. I bet they are scared of their own shadows at night.

[BoDidly]

Reading here just for the chest thumpers contest. An old Wiseman tale goes. If you're responding in trying to defend your post you're backing up.  Makes for great entertainment though 🤣. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by BoDidly

[Don Kehote]

Let me know if one goes to 45 degrees bank.