Crew member suicide - a sad story

[babs135]

Very sad story for all concerned

 

 

https://www.newsweek.com/cruise-ship-crew-member-takes-own-life-during-last-voyage-company-1253740?fbclid=IwAR2HlfXftkUD4MCEF_duCJs9xHDUIm57TZ2HIuGcBB82FQ8BXOFqWJlgg-g

[MicCanberra]

Terribly sad.

[sail7seas]

b

Edited December 13, 2018 by sail7seas

[sail7seas]

i COULD not, would not, click the link but am very sorry any crew person chose to suicide. Also very sorry  someone posted about it here.

 

May that crew person rest in peace.

[sloopsailor]

And of course that ambulance chasing lawyer Jim Walker and his witch hunting Cruise Law News spouts his accusatory opinion on the subject. Anything to take another pot shot at the cruise industry. He mentions that in a 3 year period, 12 crew members committed suicide on Royal Caribbean and Celebrity ships. He makes no mention that a greater number of passengers ended up missing in that same amount of time.

 

As in every facet of life, and no matter what kind of work people do, there will be some who cannot handle difficult issues they are dealing with. It's a sad reality of life. 

[BDRebel]

32 minutes ago, sloopsailor said:

And of course that ambulance chasing lawyer Jim Walker and his witch hunting Cruise Law News spouts his accusatory opinion on the subject. Anything to take another pot shot at the cruise industry. He mentions that in a 3 year period, 12 crew members committed suicide on Royal Caribbean and Celebrity ships. He makes no mention that a greater number of passengers ended up missing in that same amount of time.

 

As in every facet of life, and no matter what kind of work people do, there will be some who cannot handle difficult issues they are dealing with. It's a sad reality of life. 

Normally, I would agree with you about Mr Walker, however I think he has a point. It would probably be a good thing to have some type of psychological support on board -- if not a psychologist, then at least some type of peer support network.

[OCruisers]

Sad as it is about the crew member .... very many  people who do not work on ships  commit suicide.  

[PTMary]

23 minutes ago, BDRebel said:

Normally, I would agree with you about Mr Walker, however I think he has a point. It would probably be a good thing to have some type of psychological support on board -- if not a psychologist, then at least some type of peer support network.

 

Many crew come from countries where mental health care is either not supported by their culture, their health care system, or is a sign of weakness and an embarrassment to their families. These same countries also have substandard physical health care, much less for mental health. People from such cultures will be hesitant to speak to a doctor for the simple reason they are taught to keep it secret at home. It would be difficult to change those feelings, especially in an environment different than what they are used to at home. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by PTMary

[BDRebel]

I understand those concerns, but with a good peer support network, you are talking to friends/co-workers. There is no stigma associated with it - basically just people to talk with you about your troubles.

 

On the other extreme, the Officers should receive training to spot suicidal tendencies and be able to take appropriate action (ie put them off the ship if no proper care is available).

[chengkp75]

14 hours ago, BDRebel said:

Normally, I would agree with you about Mr Walker, however I think he has a point. It would probably be a good thing to have some type of psychological support on board -- if not a psychologist, then at least some type of peer support network.

 

13 hours ago, PTMary said:

 

Many crew come from countries where mental health care is either not supported by their culture, their health care system, or is a sign of weakness and an embarrassment to their families. These same countries also have substandard physical health care, much less for mental health. People from such cultures will be hesitant to speak to a doctor for the simple reason they are taught to keep it secret at home. It would be difficult to change those feelings, especially in an environment different than what they are used to at home. 

There is, in my opinion, a very good peer support network onboard cruise ships.  The different ethnicities and nationalities tend to form "Mafias" (their term) that look out for others of their group.  This is the traditional type of support that these crew members would receive in their home countries.

 

Further, crew know that any talk to a mental health professional that indicated virtually any type of depression would result in immediate removal from the ship, as the therapist or doctor would be bound to report to the Captain anyone who it was felt was not capable of fulfilling their assigned safety duties, as this would constitute a danger to others.

[sparks1093]

28 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

There is, in my opinion, a very good peer support network onboard cruise ships.  The different ethnicities and nationalities tend to form "Mafias" (their term) that look out for others of their group.  This is the traditional type of support that these crew members would receive in their home countries.

 

Further, crew know that any talk to a mental health professional that indicated virtually any type of depression would result in immediate removal from the ship, as the therapist or doctor would be bound to report to the Captain anyone who it was felt was not capable of fulfilling their assigned safety duties, as this would constitute a danger to others.

Yep, I was booted from the Navy for depression (I was successfully treated with meds but couldn't be forward deployed because of them. As I understand it those who are being treated with meds can still work on civil shipping but a crew member would not want to take the chance of losing time on his or her contract to receive treatment).

[Krazy Kruizers]

Very sad to read this.

 

Prayers for his family and friends.

 

Thank you for the link.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

Yep, I was booted from the Navy for depression (I was successfully treated with meds but couldn't be forward deployed because of them. As I understand it those who are being treated with meds can still work on civil shipping but a crew member would not want to take the chance of losing time on his or her contract to receive treatment).

That would depend on the flag state, and the documentation requirements of the mariner's home country.  In the US, it is up to a USCG medical review board as to whether or not a mariner is "fit to sail".  We have to submit our medical history and annual physicals to the USCG every two years.

[Heidi13]

16 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

That would depend on the flag state, and the documentation requirements of the mariner's home country.  In the US, it is up to a USCG medical review board as to whether or not a mariner is "fit to sail".  We have to submit our medical history and annual physicals to the USCG every two years.

Same in Canada.

 

When Seafarer Medicals started any doctor on the approved list could pass us fit and issue a Medical Certificate. However, my last medical before retirement, the doctor was only recording his observations and the final decision came from Transport Canada in Ottawa.

[Sue Do-Over]

Risk of losing your job (that you probably paid an agency to get in the first place) would keep most people from seeking mental health care 'at the workplace'. This, in itself, could magnify the effects of depression, feelings of isolation, bullying, etc. 

We know that crew are often assigned to teams that are all/mostly from the same country... imagine the stress for a person away from home for the first time, who is assigned to a team (i.e. dishwashing) where you struggle to understand directions, or don't get the jokes/slang, or where the new people get harassed as a rite-of-passage. And you're with those people day and night.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, Sue Do-Over said:

Risk of losing your job (that you probably paid an agency to get in the first place) would keep most people from seeking mental health care 'at the workplace'. This, in itself, could magnify the effects of depression, feelings of isolation, bullying, etc. 

We know that crew are often assigned to teams that are all/mostly from the same country... imagine the stress for a person away from home for the first time, who is assigned to a team (i.e. dishwashing) where you struggle to understand directions, or don't get the jokes/slang, or where the new people get harassed as a rite-of-passage. And you're with those people day and night.

Sorry, but after 43 years at sea, I think the mental health "strain" on crew is overblown.  At least on cruise ships you have hundreds of people you work with, and who you can befriend or talk to.  On most ships, it is the same 20 people day in, day out, no one on a ship gets a day off, and we all work long hours, and we don't seem to have a huge amount (very little indeed) of suicides among mariners.

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Sorry, but after 43 years at sea, I think the mental health "strain" on crew is overblown.  At least on cruise ships you have hundreds of people you work with, and who you can befriend or talk to.  On most ships, it is the same 20 people day in, day out, no one on a ship gets a day off, and we all work long hours, and we don't seem to have a huge amount (very little indeed) of suicides among mariners.

 

An old friend of mine was a Captain with Maersk for about 10 years and he hated his job, which used to be his dream job, so much that he moved to a land-based job, albeit in the same company. Exactly what Chenkp75 is saying, the same 20 people day in day out, adding that 18 of them are speaking a different language. 

 

If I had a degree in anything maritime I'd give up a lot, in terms of hours, salary, seniority, to be working on cruise ships instead of cargo.

 

[Heidi13]

8 hours ago, Sue Do-Over said:

Risk of losing your job (that you probably paid an agency to get in the first place) would keep most people from seeking mental health care 'at the workplace'. This, in itself, could magnify the effects of depression, feelings of isolation, bullying, etc. 

We know that crew are often assigned to teams that are all/mostly from the same country... imagine the stress for a person away from home for the first time, who is assigned to a team (i.e. dishwashing) where you struggle to understand directions, or don't get the jokes/slang, or where the new people get harassed as a rite-of-passage. And you're with those people day and night.

With almost 40 years at sea, of which 28 years were in Command, I totally agree with Cheng, as in my experience,"Mental Health" issues with crew members are overblown. My first ship was a 4-month voyage on a cadet training ship, where we had about 50 raw cadets, most of whom were 16 years old. Since we were embarking on a 4-year training program, we experienced a program where they tried to weed out those that couldn't handle the lifestyle. I believe the Military refer to it as boot camp. We survived by supporting each other, which in my experience is still common among ship's crews.

 

If you have never worked at sea, I don't believe it is possible to fully understand what life is like below decks and the support structures that are available to the crew, especially from other crew. Our son joined his first cruise ship as a cadet at 19 years old, working 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week for 6 months. He quickly established a circle of friends, from many departments and different countries. In addition, communications are so improved from my days at sea, that at a low point at 4+ months, he called and I chatted with him. Our DIL joined a cruise ship in her early 20's working in the Spa and similar to our son, she quickly established a group of friends, from various departments and from a number of other countries. She survived 2 - 10 month contracts and still stays in touch with many former ship mates.

 

I also read many comments about the long hours worked by the crew are causes of issues, including mental health. Yes, they work long hours, as I did on cruise ships. However, even working 12 hrs a day, every day for 4 months, I had more time off than working 8 hrs per day ashore. Aboard the ship, my commute to work was < 1 minute and I never cooked, cleaned, drove kids to activities, etc.

 

In my experience, dealing with crew issues, most issues are not generated on board, but are frequently a result of issues at home. I also cannot recall any suicides with any crew member sailing on any on my ships.

[TruckerDave]

Always interesting to read comments form folks who have never work on a ship vs people who do it for a living.   

[Cruzinforpeace***]

I was just reading about all the crew suicides.  This makes me terribly sad and angry at the same time.  I worked on cruise ships for 5 years as an entertainer.  I had a relatively easy life.  Boredom and loneliness are the biggest dangers but throw being overworked (like most of these crew members are) into the mix and it could spell disaster.  I never encountered a crew suicide in my 5 years of sailing as a “crew member”.  My last contract on Costa Cruises in 2002 I lived among the regular crew on deck 4(mostly male Phillipino sailors on my wing). They were great guys with families and worries much like everyone else. I sat along side them in the hallway many times waiting for our laundry to finish discussing their kids and interests back home.  I remember there being a lot of encouragement of crew celebrating their independence days and holidays with the rest of the crew.  We had crew parties with themes, like “Indian independence Day”.  The cruise line would organize a deck party for the different groups and each group would get together and cook their traditional foods and perform traditional dances/songs.  Those were some of my best memories.  It was a joy to see them all so proud of their cultures and to see everyone enjoying themselves.  Everyone seemed to look out for one another back then.  I remember a lot of smiling faces back then.  They worked hard but I don’t think as hard as today’s crew.

 

I have been cruising as a passenger since 2004.  The biggest change I have seen from 2004 until the present day that I believe it effecting the crews’ health is understaffing and cutbacks.  There are less crew to attend to the thousands more passengers that are now cruising.  The cruise lines have gotten extremely greedy and just need to have all their ships filled to capacity regardless of the “mental health” costs to their crew.  We as consumers should demand better. It not only effects our enjoyment of the cruise but more importantly it could be a life or death situation for an overworked, lonely crew member.  

 

There really is no way to predict how anyone is going to react to ship life as a crew member.  The least the cruise lines can do is man up and lighten their work load by hiring more staff , encourage friendships and provide fun distractions like crew parties and crew shows. I attended a crew Christian worship service at 12:00am once a week on the Costa Atlantica that literally changed my life and brought me into a deep, personal relationship with God.  There can be simple efforts that can make a HUGE difference in someone’s lonely life and give them a new purpose for living. 

 

I would personally be happy to pay more for my cruises knowing that the crew is being treated more humanly.  The treatment for crew on ships today would never be allowed in the USA on land; they would be shut down!  

 

I wish there was something I personally could do to help this situation; my heart literally hurts for the pain and hopelessness they must have been feeling when they took their own lives.  So many,

and many of them young with so much ahead for them in their lives.

[chengkp75]

And the one thing I've seen that affects crew health is the MLC 2006 Convention, which regulates the maximum hours that crew can work, the minimum hours of rest they get, and the minimum amount of rest at one stretch.  The MLC gives crew the ability to report a ship to port state officials for violations of the Convention, and I've even seen where countries with very poor labor laws and social justice like Brazil detain cruise ships for violations of the MLC.  It also mandates minimum wages for all crew.  I would like to see some hard statistics about "crew cutbacks and understaffing", showing the number of crew that have been taken away, completely, from the crew numbers, not those that may have been taken from a front line position like cabin stewards and moved to other back of house functions.  Another change in recent years has been in crew accommodation, where some newer ships like the NCL Breakaway class have only two person cabins for crew, not the old 4 or 6 person cabins.

[Hlitner]

I noticed the one recent post where it was suggested that if passengers pay more money it will help the crew. But pricing cruises higher does not necessarily help the crew...but generally helps the bottom line of the Cruise company.   If passengers want to help crew members, treat them like real people rather then servants.  Over our forty+ years of cruising we have seen too many instances of passengers mis-treating crew members...which just adds to their mental stress.  Just a simple "please" or "thank you" with a nice smile can made somebodies day.  If you deal with an exceptional crew member, you can write-up a comment card and drop it off at Guest Relations.  We have seen, first hand, how this can have a morale lifting impact on members of the crew.   We love chatting with crew members (when they have the time) about where they live, their family, how many contracts they have worked, etc.  This sounds simple and obvious, but apparently it is far from the norm.   

 

Hank

[Cruzinforpeace***]

It’s good they have some regulations for crew treatment/hours but I highly

doubt many will report violations because they will definitely lose their jobs.  I’ve seen it happen where if someone does try to “complain” they are sent home and at their own expense because part of their contractual agreement states that they must complete their contract or they will have to pay for their airfare home.

 

As far as the money not going to the crew if fares are raised, that is 100% correct.  The “2 crew to a cabin” is definitely a factor for hiring less crew.  When I worked on Celebrity in the 90’s there were 6 to a cabin!  Pretty tight quarters but again I remember witnessing an overall happier atmosphere amongst the crew.  It was crowded and not too clean in the crew area but it was an “adventure”; we all embraced it as such.  We used to fish off the back of the ship while docked in Bermuda, all levels of crew from officers, cleaners, entertainers and sailors.  We then would cook up our red snappers and share them with our fellow crew members.  It was so much fun.  The cruise lines have less room for more crew quarters on the newer ships.  Those cabins don’t make $ but more passenger cabins do, especially with all the upselling nowadays.  I believe it was a very calculated change across the board except for maybe on the smaller five star lines.  I wish it would change back to the other way like I said; better for the passengers AND the crew.  It would NOT be good for the cruise lines’ bottom lines. They have to pay for all those mega ships they’re building!

[Shmoo here]

28 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

f passengers want to help crew members, treat them like real people rather then servants.  Over our forty+ years of cruising we have seen too many instances of passengers mis-treating crew members...which just adds to their mental stress.  Just a simple "please" or "thank you" with a nice smile can made somebodies day. 

Sooooooo true.

 

I've seen people on one line we've cruised on who basically treat all crew members/dining staff as if they were servants.  And not in a good way.

[Cruzinforpeace***]

That’s not good to treat the crew like servants but I can say that people in the service industry do not expect to be treated “nice”.  Respect yes, but also tolerant of disrespect.  The customer is always right.  Taking away the “merit” individual tipping has been a big factor in crew morale.  The cruise lines are pocketing your included gratuities for sure.  The crew does not benefit from this method of reward.  The crew loves to see “envelopes”!  That’s why so many of the ships we’ve been on lately we’ve heard constant pitches for extra gratuity.