Did NCL drop your luggage in the Sea ? - Pearl 28 July from Rome

[eroller]

I also think it’s very easy for people sitting in the comfort of their homes behind their computers to say the OP should have done this or that.  I’m guessing if these same people found themselves in the same situation their tunes would be dramatically different.  

[eroller]

8 minutes ago, SeaShark said:

 

Sure, they are customers of NCL, but they were NOT when the suffered the loss. One company is not responsible for losses you incur while you are dealing with a different company.

 

i don’t think it’s as cut and dry when one company has been contracted by another to provide services for their customers.  Then the contracting company takes on some ownership of the company they hired. 
 

Take spa services.  It’s a contracted company but if there was negligence or some issue on behalf of an NCL passenger, NCL Guest Relations will get involved and you will deal directly with NCL.  

Edited October 4, 2019 by eroller

[SeaShark]

5 minutes ago, eroller said:

 

i don’t think it’s as cut and dry when one company has been contracted by another to provide services for their customers.  Then the contracting company takes on some ownership of the company they hired. 
 

Take spa services.  It’s a contracted company but if there was negligence or some issue on behalf of an NCL passenger, NCL Guest Relations will get involved and you will deal directly with NCL.  

 

Only because you are on their ship.

 

I have an upcoming cruise with Air booked through NCL.

 

If the airline were to lose my luggage between my home airport and Miami...it is very simple: the Airline has responsibility, not NCL...even though the Airline was contracted by NCL to provide service for their customer. Likewise, if the plane should crash, my family would sue the Airline, not NCL.

[eroller]

1 minute ago, SeaShark said:

 

Only because you are on their ship.

 

I have an upcoming cruise with Air booked through NCL.

 

If the airline were to lose my luggage between my home airport and Miami...it is very simple: the Airline has responsibility, not NCL...even though the Airline was contracted by NCL to provide service for their customer. Likewise, if the plane should crash, my family would sue the Airline, not NCL.

 

Good point but not an apples to apples analogy.  The relationship is quite different.  You seem to think it’s different for the spa because they are on the ship.  The stevedores are on the ship too. Loading and unloading bags In the staging area.  The airline is not on the ship.  Likewise I would never hold NCL responsible if an independent cab or Uber driver dropped my bags in the water as they are not contracted by NCL.  
 

if you get food poisoning on NCL from bad fish, are you going to hold NCL responsible or the food distributor that NCL purchased the food from?   I know this is also not an apples to apples comparison but it shows the complexity of different relationships.  They are not all equal and there are different levels of responsibility buy the contracting or buying company.  
 

I’m also not saying NCL has any responsibilities beyond their contract. I’m saying what I think NCL should do.  There is a difference.  

[Starry Eyes]

3 minutes ago, eroller said:

I also think it’s very easy for people sitting in the comfort of their homes behind their computers to say the OP should have done this or that.  I’m guessing if these same people found themselves in the same situation their tunes would be dramatically different.  

Um, no, some are sitting in their living room thinking better wet than gone.  You see, while OP’s luggage mishap was more dramatic than many, but it was NOT worse than many of us have suffered.  Please remember that others here have lost luggage and had to manage to enjoy a vacation without their only checked bag. Having survived that, wet luggage sounds preferable to no luggage.  The OP must agree, as they dragged their wet luggage aboard themselves without waiting for shoreside assistance (though the OP glossed over it, a careful reader of this full thread must infer the adults were not “disembarked” but rather called ashore to address the wet luggage; rather than waiting to be assisted in draining it and limiting damage on shore;  they took it upon themselves to hauled it dripping wet to their cabin).  They had the opportunity to try to recover, clean and use their items.  Those who have permanently lost luggage at the start of a trip had no such option.  Complain about fading or not fitting as well, but they know where their stuff is.  

 

You seem very skilled at spend other people’s money.  The OP has made it pretty clear it was the stevedores that mishandled the luggage, not ship personnel.  So, the OP could try to go after the stevedores; evidently , that is not palatable. Otherwise, the OP can consider it an oddball mishap...the kind of thing his insurance should cover.  Yet he says his insurance company does not want to make him whole due to lack of receipts (Or maybe the insurance company has looked at the items and they do not think the damage is as severe as the OP perceives.)  In either case, he has an insurance dispute; that is not NCL’s fault either.

[eroller]

7 minutes ago, Starry Eyes said:

Um, no, some are sitting in their living room thinking better wet than gone.  You see, while OP’s luggage mishap was more dramatic than many, but it was NOT worse than many of us have suffered.  Please remember that others here have lost luggage and had to manage to enjoy a vacation without their only checked bag. Having survived that, wet luggage sounds preferable to no luggage.  The OP must agree, as they dragged their wet luggage aboard themselves without waiting for shoreside assistance (though the OP glossed over it, a careful reader of this full thread must infer the adults were not “disembarked” but rather called ashore to address the wet luggage; rather than waiting to be assisted in draining it and limiting damage on shore;  they took it upon themselves to hauled it dripping wet to their cabin).  They had the opportunity to try to recover, clean and use their items.  Those who have permanently lost luggage at the start of a trip had no such option.  Complain about fading or not fitting as well, but they know where their stuff is.  

 

You seem very skilled at spend other people’s money.  The OP has made it pretty clear it was the stevedores that mishandled the luggage, not ship personnel.  So, the OP could try to go after the stevedores; evidently , that is not palatable. Otherwise, the OP can consider it an oddball mishap...the kind of thing his insurance should cover.  Yet he says his insurance company does not want to make him whole due to lack of receipts (Or maybe the insurance company has looked at the items and they do not think the damage is as severe as the OP perceives.)  In either case, he has an insurance dispute; that is not NCL’s fault either.

 

I’ve made my points and if you disagree that is your prerogative.  
 

As for me wanting to spend other people’s money you know nothing about me.  Don’t speak about what you don’t know.  

[sanger727]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 5:08 AM, GoldingS666 said:

 

When I say electronics I am not talking about demining equipment or toys but hair straighteners, Electric razors, multiple chargers, travel plugs camera chargers and spare batteries etc.

 

Am I supposed to get a travelling rucksack to walk around with when boarding ? lol

 

 

 

 

Yes, I do. I always carry a backpack with me on vacation as a carry on. Keep ALL electronics, chargers, batteries, prescription meds, travel documents, and valuables on my person that way. We personally don't bother with electric razors or hair straighteners when we travel but if we did we would bring inexpensive versions. I assume that any luggage I give anyone whether on a plane or cruise ship as checked baggage will be tossed around, left out in the rain, and potentially rummaged through by thieves. I pack with this understanding and don't take anything I can't stand to lose or have broken in checked luggage.

[sanger727]

3 hours ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

There can be many reasons why a flight is cancelled. Could be weather, a maintenance issue, crew legalities etc. 

 

Theres no no such thing as “illegal connection flights”. Not sure where you got that term. Each airline decides what the minimum connection time is and it’s different in each airport.

 

If anything, the General public doesn’t know just how regulated the airlines are. One little thing and the airplane can’t fly. For example, and people ask this all the time, those ashtrays on the outside of the lavatory door...people always ask why they’re still there...well they’re FAA requirement and without them the airplane can’t fly. Read up on FAR Part 121 and see just how regulated airlines are.

 

I believe an "illegal connection" is a term that refers to flights that third party sites will let you book like kayak. Sometimes it's cheaper for them to buy the flights in separate legs from different airlines. Somehow they make it work ticketed together. So If say you want to go from Miami to Anchorage. And delta will book you Miami to Seattle and then book you through a partner airline to Anchorage from Seattle. And that ticket is $800. Kayak may realize that it's cheaper to book you Miami to Seattle with delta and then Seattle to Anchorage with a completely different airline that delta wouldn't have booked you through. Then when Delta sets 45 minutes as a the min connection, you could end up with a 42 min connection. Since Delta isn't creating that connection. I personally don't book flights like that but these sites let you. Obviously, if they are doing it and aren't cancelling your flight when you don't come to the check in counter at the connecting airport, they are aware of what is going on and allowing it.

[SeaShark]

28 minutes ago, eroller said:

 

Good point but not an apples to apples analogy.  The relationship is quite different.  You seem to think it’s different for the spa because they are on the ship.  The stevedores are on the ship too. Loading and unloading bags In the staging area.  The airline is not on the ship.  Likewise I would never hold NCL responsible if an independent cab or Uber driver dropped my bags in the water as they are not contracted by NCL.  
 

if you get food poisoning on NCL from bad fish, are you going to hold NCL responsible or the food distributor that NCL purchased the food from?   I know this is also not an apples to apples comparison but it shows the complexity of different relationships.  They are not all equal and there are different levels of responsibility buy the contracting or buying company.  
 

I’m also not saying NCL has any responsibilities beyond their contract. I’m saying what I think NCL should do.  There is a difference.  

 

That would, of course, depend...did the purveyor deliver bad fish or did the fish go bad afterward due to NCL's negligence?

 

One thing for sure...If I ate on my way to catch my flight home, I certainly wouldn't argue that the airline and/or the cab company had any responsibility because I am their customer and someone thinks it would be good PR for them to compensate me.

 

 

One thing that you are missing is this: The Port employee damaged the luggage. The Port needs to step up and make the customer whole again. End of story...once the customer has been made whole by the party responsible for the damage, there is no reason that another company should also compensate the customer on top of that.

[DaCruiseBug]

19 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

I believe an "illegal connection" is a term that refers to flights that third party sites will let you book like kayak. Sometimes it's cheaper for them to buy the flights in separate legs from different airlines. Somehow they make it work ticketed together. So If say you want to go from Miami to Anchorage. And delta will book you Miami to Seattle and then book you through a partner airline to Anchorage from Seattle. And that ticket is $800. Kayak may realize that it's cheaper to book you Miami to Seattle with delta and then Seattle to Anchorage with a completely different airline that delta wouldn't have booked you through. Then when Delta sets 45 minutes as a the min connection, you could end up with a 42 min connection. Since Delta isn't creating that connection. I personally don't book flights like that but these sites let you. Obviously, if they are doing it and aren't cancelling your flight when you don't come to the check in counter at the connecting airport, they are aware of what is going on and allowing it.

 

Kayak is just like a travel agent. The airlines have no control over what they do.

 

Its like you booking a cruise with a TA and that TA booking a flight that gets in at 2pm when the ship sails at 4pm and then the ship not waiting for you since you have to be at the port 2 hours before sailaway. Is it the cruise lines fault that the ship leaves without you or is it your TAs fault for booking that and you accepting it?

[Starry Eyes]

15 minutes ago, eroller said:

 

I’ve made my points and if you disagree that is your prerogative.  
 

As for me wanting to spend other people’s money you know nothing about me.  Don’t speak about what you don’t know.  

Well, to me logic clearly dictates that the claim should go to the party who dropped the luggage (the stevedores contracted by the Port Authority) or to the travel insurance company.  Not just my prerogative, but logic.  And the law...even the OP admitted any case against NCL would very weak. Instead, of encouraging him to pursue the most logical parties, you are giving both those a total pass aiming only at NCL...so, to me you are trying to spend other people’s money (NCL shareholders’).  If you do not like that statement,well, that is your prerogative.

 

Your prior post in part reads: “Regardless of what the contract states NCL has an obligation to do the right thing by their guests.  They hire the shoreside personnel that handle your luggage to their ship, so yes I feel NCL is ultimately responsible.  I would first pursue all opportunities with NCL, giving them the chance to do the right thing.  It might take a little time and frustration but that is a necessary step one.  If that fails, then by all means seek outside assistance.  Try Elliott Advocacy...”

[sanger727]

14 minutes ago, DaCruiseBug said:

 

Kayak is just like a travel agent. The airlines have no control over what they do.

 

Its like you booking a cruise with a TA and that TA booking a flight that gets in at 2pm when the ship sails at 4pm and then the ship not waiting for you since you have to be at the port 2 hours before sailaway. Is it the cruise lines fault that the ship leaves without you or is it your TAs fault for booking that and you accepting it?

 

Oh, it’s absolutely your fault for accepting it. As I said, I don’t book those flights. I just think that’s what the term illegal connection references. 

[eroller]

18 hours ago, Starry Eyes said:

 ...so, to me you are trying to spend other people’s money (NCL shareholders’).  If you do not like that statement,well, that is your prerogative.

 

 

 

 

It's also my prerogative that I don't give a rats a-- about NCL shareholders.  It's humorous that their financial wellbeing is a motivational driver and concern for you.  Perhaps you should go work for them if you don't already if you feel that connected to the company.    

[beerman2]

20 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Oh, it’s absolutely your fault for accepting it. As I said, I don’t book those flights. I just think that’s what the term illegal connection references. 

No, it was a Southwest flight connecting in Memphis from Cleveland going to Houston. It was a stewardess on my flight saying it.  Maybe her terminology was wrong , however the point being airlines shouldn't let pax book flights where you have less than an hour between connection.

 

I don't normally book that type of flight but needed to get to Houston ASAP . Mother had a major medical condition.

 

To compound matters in Memphis whoever operated the gangway couldn't get it to line up with the door.  We barely made the flight, luggage didn't though.

[beerman2]

2 hours ago, eroller said:

 

 

It's also my prerogative that I don't give a rats a-- about NCL shareholders.  It's humorous that their financial wellbeing is a motivational driver and concern for you.  Perhaps you should go work for them if you don't already if you feel that connected to the company.    

"Perhaps you should go to work for them".   Hummmmmmmm, it's a 2 way street .

[sanger727]

21 hours ago, beerman2 said:

No, it was a Southwest flight connecting in Memphis from Cleveland going to Houston. It was a stewardess on my flight saying it.  Maybe her terminology was wrong , however the point being airlines shouldn't let pax book flights where you have less than an hour between connection.

 

I don't normally book that type of flight but needed to get to Houston ASAP . Mother had a major medical condition.

 

To compound matters in Memphis whoever operated the gangway couldn't get it to line up with the door.  We barely made the flight, luggage didn't though.

 

Ok. Then yes, I think she used the wrong term. If you book a regular flight without intentionally manipulating it; you aren’t booked with an illegal connection. There’s no one hour rule for flight connections. You are also free to book or not book any flight due to the connection time being too short. Personally, I’m glad that there’s no set 1 hour rule. my next flight has a 55 min connection; if I hadn’t been able to book that we would have had wait for the next flight which is 2 hours later. So 55 min vs 2 hour and 55 min; I’ll take my chances. 

 

The biggest issue with an illegal connection isn’t really the time. That can be an issue. But if you book a standard ticketed issued by the airline and your first flight gets in late; they will know you are running late to the connection, may hold the plane for a short time if several people are on your flight and it’s onlt going to miss by a few minutes, and if you do end up getting in way too late to make the second flight will get you booked on an alternate to make sure you get to your destination. If you book an illegal connection, the airline doesn’t have to do any of those things.

 

we’ve missed a connection once. And yes, believe our connection was over an hour. But the first plane was delayed for close to 2 hours due to a mechanical issue. As soon as we landed they had new flight info for us to get us on the next plane to our destination. We lost our first class seats unfortunately but they did prorate to cost differential between first class and economy and reimbursed us plus a $150 or $200 voucher towards a future flight. It was annoying but not a huge deal.

 

 

[PelicanBill]

If your luggage is damaged or lost by airport employees (who are usually working for another company under contract to the municipal airport authority), you don't have to deal with the airport employees or the subcontractors. You deal with the airline.  There is a standard for what they will pay.  They will truck it or ship it to catch up to you if they find it.  And in the majority of cases, you are in a place where you can get to a store to buy reasonable replacements.

 

It sucks that replacement value is far more costly than what insurance, airlines, and cruise lines will pay. 

 

But it is clear that your contract is with the cruise line, not the port or comnpany handling your luggage. The cruise line is employee a blanket liability shield in their contract and a jury, judge or arbitrator is likely to find they need to cover you.  Value of the loss is another thing altogether.  Average value of used items and bag at $100 is too low, but at $200 you would need receipts to prove you have much more in there.  Per bag. Don't pack your 5 $100 dresses because used they are worth $20.  The bigger problem for a lot of people is they aren't covered for the cost to replace these items - only for their used value.  And the bigger problem includes that you are now stuck on a cruise ship where you cannot go to Target for clothes, you have only the clothes that cost way too much money.

 

Do cruise lines "step up?"  All the time.  We saw a newlywed couple arrive at the ship but the airline did not deliver their luggage or it was not picked up and brought to the ship by the transfer. Nobody knew for shore (it was cruise arranged air.)  They had only the outfits they were wearing as they had not been clever to pack clothes in their carry ons.  The cruise line gave them a $500 obc to buy what they could in their stores and I believe that was at their cost if I remember right. 

 

One suggestion I have.  When booking, passengers should have insurance included in their quite. If you remove it, you should have to sign a waiver that indicates you either bought alternate insurance, or, a clear statement that you have no coverage for loss, theft, cancellation, injury or illness, etc.  We just see too much of people failing to understand how often something happens.

[tanyaewa]

I’ve done 10+ cruises, from many different ports.

In each embarkation port I am required to hand over my non carry on luggage to a person  in a vest standing on a curb outside the cruise line check in terminal.  There are cruise line employees that say hello and show me the way to the entrance.  How the heck am I expected  to know who the guy in the vest is employed by?

it seems very much at that point I am starting my experience with the cruise line.

it is implied that I am going to be taken care of by the cruise line.  They have given me no choice as to how to get my luggage onto the ship other than having handed it over, with tip!

in my opinion that implies that the cruise line will be taking care of it for me.

if I am given another option, or given different information, I may make another choice.  but  that Is not the case.

the OP was just doing what was expected  and required of him.  In my opinion the cruise line has responsibilities to ensure their systems are in the best interest of their passengers.  If the luggage is compromised, they need to make it right.

 

[momofmab]

I'm wondering if the cruise lines scan each piece of luggage at some point, after you drop it with the porters and before it's loaded on the ship?  If so, it could possibly be argued that it was in NCL's "possession" even before it was loaded on the ship.

 

Nonetheless, without receipts for the content, the sky would be the limit on what someone could claim was in there - so there has to be a cap.  The OP's situation is a terrible start to a cruise, for sure!  A good lesson to all to carry any truly valuable items (as well as medicines) on the ship with you.

 

I was on a cruise with a friend who lost her luggage via the airline..  She did have a few things in her carry on, but not much.  The airline gave her $100/day stipend.  No time to buy anything before we left port so she sported "Carnival" gear for a couple of days (as well as borrowing dress up clothes from the rest of us) until we reached a port with a mall nearby.  She was a good sport - I don't think I would have gotten on board!

[mjkacmom]

6 hours ago, tanyaewa said:

I’ve done 10+ cruises, from many different ports.

In each embarkation port I am required to hand over my non carry on luggage to a person  in a vest standing on a curb outside the cruise line check in terminal.  There are cruise line employees that say hello and show me the way to the entrance.  How the heck am I expected  to know who the guy in the vest is employed by?

it seems very much at that point I am starting my experience with the cruise line.

it is implied that I am going to be taken care of by the cruise line.  They have given me no choice as to how to get my luggage onto the ship other than having handed it over, with tip!

in my opinion that implies that the cruise line will be taking care of it for me.

if I am given another option, or given different information, I may make another choice.  but  that Is not the case.

the OP was just doing what was expected  and required of him.  In my opinion the cruise line has responsibilities to ensure their systems are in the best interest of their passengers.  If the luggage is compromised, they need to make it right.

 

That person wearing the NCL gear doesn’t work for a NCL, but the port, they have gear for all of the cruise lines that use the port.

[GoldingS666]

2 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

That person wearing the NCL gear doesn’t work for a NCL, but the port, they have gear for all of the cruise lines that use the port.

 

I promised myself I wouldn't come back into this chat as, so far, I have failed to find the remaining 7+ cruises effected by this incident but I really don't understand how unsupportive so many people are. I can only assume they don't travel at all. 

Our group number is not what we hoped for but we are not alone at least.

 

This is meant to be a community to help and guide each other as "cruisers" not take company stances, laugh at others problems and losses and wag fingers at each other about the law and hidden micro terms in tiny wordings of avoidance by multi million dollar businesses keen to take every penny we earn.

 

Many people on cruises are first timers and in many cases blowing their life savings as old folk to enjoy one last hurrah before being incapable to travel or death. How would you oldest family members cope with this ?

 

Is my experience what you wish to happen to first and last timers ?

 

We all book holidays massively in advance and spend a year plus filled with excitement and complete trust in the company we have handed vast amounts of money to for them to look after us and return the promised dream holiday we thought we were buying.

 

Most people do what they are told and have no idea how to react or have the will to fight back if things go wrong so companies just sweep this under the carpet and prey for no bad media.

God forgive they cant take money from the naïve and old ladies widows pensions anymore, when it is so easy for them to do so without consequence or duty of care!

 

Yes you are correct the guy in the high viz jacket wearing the NCL logo shirt has a dozen Celebrity, RC, Carnival and etc others but this is not the illusion that the man/women in the street is buying into. Even the most cynical "educated" traveller with a business or law degree buys into the dream (until it happens to them) so where do we draw the line?

 

In my case I am arguing with NCL that they keep telling me I will be paid for my loss (and was even told that it would happen before I left the ship 12 weeks ago !!) but nothing has happened and now they want me to go to THEIR sub contractor so they can walk away and close their file. This wont work as the subcontractor has no written contact with me and they do not have to speak to me. They are welcome to travel to mine and we can all model our shrunken, stinking clothes for them !

 

I have no interest in bringing companies down or seek unwarranted profit from a loss.

I actually have never made and insurance claim in my life as I see most situations as simply not worthy and not the way to handle myself! No disrespect but I am not American so don't go running to lawyers every time someone spills a coffee on my lap etc, which is of course the worlds view of American culture. Rightly or falsely.

 

Ultimately our luggage was dropped in sewage port water and heavily damaged/destroyed at the very start of the biggest family holiday we have ever saved for and so far NCL have offered me a discount on another holiday which of course we cant just snap up within the 12 month deadline ?. Not everyone is a high roller.

Vouchers for a 10-15% discount off with a company you don't trust is not compensation, Its just a way to take more money with a "better luck next time sucker" attitude

 

You can argue liability, law and rules of travel until your mouths run dry but there are so few documented stories of this type the point is that the cruise company probably wont give a toss if it happens to you and actually view this as a way to take more money from you. All insurance will likely fail unless you never throw away a receipt again.

 

Is this what the moral is ?

Don't book a vacation until you have gone through the terms and conditions with an expensive lawyer, asked everyone you know for guidance and then should you commit never leave your possessions unattended as nobody is liable apart from the customer for being fooled into trusting paid professionals ?

 

Utmost good faith ?

 

No it is not possible to take cases on "unless pre arranged". I checked.

Love to see them handle us all doing this on mass next time through pure lack of trust.

 

If I book into a hotel andthe wine in their restaurant makes us ill does the hotel walk away and make me go after the chef, the wine waiter, the sommelier, the vineyard, the farmers, the guy that provided the fertiliser, the guy that owns the farm next door ?

 

No, Its all part of the group experience and the Hotel, being the biggest partner, takes responsibility for the experience as it was under their care and custody. They may then sack or sue the chef, supplier or vineyard but what business of mine is that as I have no direct relationship with them ?

 

If they do nothing their reputation fails, sales drop, the company get poor reviews and customers try elsewhere.

How many people were rushing to book onto the NCL Pearl after the dry dock closure this summer.

Passengers had arrived and were not even given enough to get home in many circumstance plus in some cases just 50% refund on the cruise, according to our press.

On a very different level, did you book with Costa just after the tragic loss of the Concordia or did you doubt the companies overall policy and controls ?

Reputation is everything.

 

No doubt the usual unsupportive loners will jump on this text again but I hope at least some good comes of this chain of discussion to warn holidaymakers what may lie ahead.

 

If just half a dozen people have not booked with NCL now then this is where their decision on customer service has let them and their shareholders down. Not the customer asking for answers.

Edited October 7, 2019 by GoldingS666
Update

[tampadee]

Is it difficult to carry all your own luggage when you check in?

 

We have done it on short cruises with pretty small bags.

 

 

[SeaShark]

"I promised myself I wouldn't come back into this chat"

 

--Don't worry about it, that happens very often. People come here, not looking for answers so much as looking for people to take their side, and they make similar statements as they become frustrated by the truth. They usually always come back.

 

"I really don't understand how unsupportive so many people are"

 

--Please remember....we are not here to be a support group. We will, however, tell you the truth. The fact that the truth isn't supportive of your position does not mean the people are unsupportive of you. I don't think there is anyone here who doesn't feel sorry for your loss. I also don't think there is anyone here who doesn't think you should be reimbursed by either your travel insurance policy or the responsible party (the Port Authority). You probably won't find much support if you keep insisting on operating outside of those areas.

 

"This wont work as the subcontractor has no written contact with me and they do not have to speak to me." 

 

--If you really believe that, the next time you travel simply refuse to give them your luggage and tell them you refuse because they have no written contract with you...see how that goes.

 

 

"If I book into a hotel andthe wine in their restaurant makes us ill does the hotel walk away and make me go after the chef, the wine waiter, the sommelier, the vineyard, the farmers, the guy that provided the fertiliser, the guy that owns the farm next door ?"

 

--A bad example as this happens all within the hotel. A better example would be if I went downtown, parked in a public garage, walked to the hotel, entered the restaurant and had dinner. During dinner, I am notified that my car has been damaged in the garage. It would be the garage who is responsible for my car, NOT the hotel, and NOT the restaurant...even though I was only there to be their customer and I don't have a written contract with the garage.

 

 

 

Very sorry that you aren't getting people to tell you what you want to hear. However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to what they are saying.