Ruby Princess police investigation

[Aus Traveller]

Here is a link to an ABC article where Border Force confirms there was a phone call from the Sydney Port Authority expressing concern about the health of passengers on the Ruby Princess.  Border Force confirms it phoned the Port Authority back and advised that NSW Health had given the green light to have the ship dock and passengers disembark.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-08/coronavirus-abf-reveal-late-night-phone-call-about-ruby-princess/12134870

 

BTW, let's not name anyone who may, or may not have been involved in this incident.

[Kiwi Kruzer]

Cartoon from this mornings NZ Herald.....

 

[DiamondFour]

Here is another articles detailing how the Port Authority and Border Force allowed the Ovation of the Seas to dock and disembark guests in Sydney the day before Ruby Princess. Some guests on Ovation of the Seas later proved to be infected with the same virus that originated in china.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/how-another-cruise-ship-was-able-to-dock-in-australia-with-sick-passengers-onboard-who-were-then-allowed-to-leave-without-being-checked-for-deadly-coronavirus-in-eerie-similarity-to-the-ruby-princess-debacle/ar-BB12rpOl?li=AAgfLCP&ocid=mailsignout

[christodan]

Have you seen this today?

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments

 

Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and  said was told everything is fine.  This is where some communication  may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly.

[By The Bay]

4 minutes ago, christodan said:

Have you seen this today?

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments

 

Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and  said was told everything is fine.  This is where some communication  may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly.

Agree with booking direct.

[Pushka]

Maybe check out the guardian link I posted earlier to see how Princess corporate structure has protected itself. Carnival Australia never existed as a legal entity.  

Edited April 11, 2020 by Pushka

[By The Bay]

16 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Maybe check out the guardian link I posted earlier to see how Princess corporate structure has protected itself. Carnival Australia never existed as a legal entity.  

This from Princess's T&C's. Note 2rd paragraph.

38. Choice of law and jurisdiction

This contract is governed by the laws in force in New South Wales. You agree that any action You bring against Us will be brought in New South Wales, Australia.

 

If You have a claim against Us, You agree only to bring action against Us and not any of Our related bodies corporate as defined in the Corporations Act 2001(Cth).

 

1. Introduction

We/Our/Us means Carnival plc

[Aus Traveller]

32 minutes ago, christodan said:

Have you seen this today?

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments

 

Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and  said was told everything is fine.  This is where some communication  may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly.

The SMH article is very interesting. BTW, there are a couple of errors in the reporting. One is as follows:

On Sunday evening, March 15, as the ship steamed north, there was a shock announcement. Carnival had already declared the previous day that it would pause its Australian operations for a month but said ships still at sea could continue their voyages and return to Sydney as scheduled.

 

Ruby Princess returned from NZ because Princess Cruises announced a 60 'pause' on 12th March, it wasn't because of the 30-day pause announced by Carnival Cruises, three days later.

[Aus Traveller]

32 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Maybe check out the guardian link I posted earlier to see how Princess corporate structure has protected itself. Carnival Australia never existed as a legal entity.  

Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them.

 

With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp.

[christodan]

9 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them.

 

With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp.

Agree with your last point. But I also think some of the claims made by passengers that I saw on commercial TV channels seemed highly dubious. And the claim in the SMH that the passenger asked a Carnival Staff member  if it was safe to catch a train??? Really and who was that ? Someone at the buffet counter or the cabin attendant? Why would any sea crew know anything about what to do on land anyway?

[gbenjo]

59 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

Here is another articles detailing how the Port Authority and Border Force allowed the Ovation of the Seas to dock and disembark guests in Sydney the day before Ruby Princess. Some guests on Ovation of the Seas later proved to be infected with the same virus that originated in china.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/coronavirus/how-another-cruise-ship-was-able-to-dock-in-australia-with-sick-passengers-onboard-who-were-then-allowed-to-leave-without-being-checked-for-deadly-coronavirus-in-eerie-similarity-to-the-ruby-princess-debacle/ar-BB12rpOl?li=AAgfLCP&ocid=mailsignout

No big deal but the second photo in this article shows pax walking with luggage past the opera  house steps. They  are not from the Ovation but  were some of the first responders leaving the Spectrum from the Man o War steps after their thank you cruise. As I said, no big deal but if they continually get photos wrong, how much of the story has “inaccuracies” 

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 minute ago, christodan said:

Agree with your last point. But I also think some of the claims made by passengers that I saw on commercial TV channels seemed highly dubious. And the claim in the SMH that the passenger asked a Carnival Staff member  if it was safe to catch a train??? Really and who was that ? Someone at the buffet counter or the cabin attendant? Why would any sea crew know anything about what to do on land anyway?

Or even one of the cruise terminal people.

 

I also noticed that that same person claimed the disembarkation was rushed and disorderly. That the pace had changed from leisurely to " let's get everyone off the ship". I wonder how much cruising that person has done? I've never seen a disorderly Princess disembarkation, although it can seem chaotic at times when everyone is trying to use the lifts at the same time. Yes, passengers aren't encouraged to linger on the ship so that could be seen as "let's get everyone off the ship" by a newbie cruiser but that's standard procedure as normally new passengers would be embarking in a few hours. I've also witnessed the rush of self-disembarking passengers who want or need to get off the ship as early and as quickly as they can. 

[Pushka]

1 hour ago, Aus Traveller said:

Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them.

 

With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp.

Of course it matters in legal situations like this. 
 

This is rather relevant. 
‘ Nor did he respond when asked when Sherry ceased to be chairman of Carnival Australia, how she could be an officer of an entity that does not exist and how the group’s local operation was structured.’
 

I can’t get to the ‘He’ mentioned here as I’m on the iPhone but it is a relevant Carnival rep. It’s from the link above. 

 

[Russell21]

Carnival Australia is a Trading Name which should be registered by Carnival plc. There does not have to be a company called Carnival Australia. For example I could register and work under 'KALULAH KAPERS" as a sole trader without a company.

[Pushka]

12 minutes ago, Russell21 said:

Carnival Australia is a Trading Name which should be registered by Carnival plc. There does not have to be a company called Carnival Australia. For example I could register and work under 'KALULAH KAPERS" as a sole trader without a company.

ASIC requires employees Titles to match with the legalities of the organisation. We have several business names trading under the one PTY LTD umbrella but we can’t call ourselves CE or Chairman of ABC Business Name. 

[Aus Traveller]

54 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Of course it matters in legal situations like this. 
 

This is rather relevant. 
‘ Nor did he respond when asked when Sherry ceased to be chairman of Carnival Australia, how she could be an officer of an entity that does not exist and how the group’s local operation was structured.’
 

I can’t get to the ‘He’ mentioned here as I’m on the iPhone but it is a relevant Carnival rep. It’s from the link above. 

 

Anyone wanting to sue as a result of recent events will sue the owner of the cruise line, the trading name is irrelevant. A Business Name exists, it is just a different legal structure from a corporation (company). In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter how Carnival Corp and Carnival plc structure their company. It does not protect them from being sued.

 

There is an article about Cruise Line Industry Association awards last month where Ann Sherry was described as the "former CEO of Carnival Australia". It is mentioned elsewhere that she left that job in March, 2019.  Ms Sherry was an employee, not an owner of the cruiselines, so no-one would be suing her personally. I can't see that it matters that she has moved on from that job.

[Aus Traveller]

35 minutes ago, Russell21 said:

Carnival Australia is a Trading Name which should be registered by Carnival plc. There does not have to be a company called Carnival Australia. For example I could register and work under 'KALULAH KAPERS" as a sole trader without a company.

That is what I did for several years, although I had a different name (not Kalulah Kapers!!). As the business grew, there were advantages to incorporate a company that was then the legal owner of my business but I continued trading under the Business Name. All legitimate and above board.

[Aus Traveller]

26 minutes ago, Pushka said:

ASIC requires employees Titles to match with the legalities of the organisation. We have several business names trading under the one PTY LTD umbrella but we can’t call ourselves CE or Chairman of ABC Business Name. 

You are familiar with the difference between a Business Name and a Corporation.

 

Advice from an expert on Australian Corporations Law (not me!!) is that the word "Director" can only be used when referring to a Director of a corporation, however, there is no restriction on the word "Chairman". Unless it is a company, they cannot use the title "Chairman of Directors". People who chair meetings of any kind, even a small club, can be called "Chairman". 🙂 Anyone can call themselves a Chief Executive Officer. This usually implies an employee as Ann Sherry was.

 

I can't see that the title Ann Sherry used until a year ago has any impact on the current situation. 🙂 I also can't see that Carnival Corporation has been trying to hide their corporate structure.

[bazzaw]

4 hours ago, christodan said:

Have you seen this today?

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-ill-fated-journey-of-cruise-ship-the-ruby-princess-20200410-p54iu5.html#comments

 

Interesting that one passenger who booked direct received a text message from Princess with an email about a refund for a change of mind, but another passenger who booked through an agent seemed to not receive the offer and  said was told everything is fine.  This is where some communication  may have broken down as well. Makes me think it is better to always book directly.

If there is one thing that I have learned about all this, is that I will never book through a TA again, not even a hotel through a hotel aggregator or any flights!!!. 

[DiamondFour]

2 hours ago, bazzaw said:

If there is one thing that I have learned about all this, is that I will never book through a TA again, not even a hotel through a hotel aggregator or any flights!!!. 

This crisis will put travel agents out of business, but I learned that many years ago to never book through a travel agent when Ansett collapsed and the travel agent went out of business not long after. I think it was called Traveland and there is not more of them since.

 

[dizzy1948]

7 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

Does it matter that 'Carnival Australia' doesn't exist as a legal entity? Princess Cruises is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Carnival Corporation. As shareholders of Carnival Corp we receive benefits when we cruise on the cruise-lines it owns, Princess being one of them.

 

With all the disclaimers and protections written into the cruise contract, it would not be an easy task to win in a legal case against Carnival Corp.

Carnival Australia does exist inasmuch as it's ABN NO is registered to Carnival Australia but it's trading name is P & O Cruises. ABN 23 107 998 443 same ABN 

below are the business names

This is an extract from the ABR - sorry about the black lettering, I don't know how to make it go away.

Here's the link  https://abr.business.gov.au/ABN/View?abn=23107998443

Business name	From
HOLLAND AMERICA LINE	27 Jun 2011
CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES	22 Mar 2011
P & O CRUISES AUSTRALIA	27 Nov 2008
COMPLETE CRUISE SOLUTION	24 Jan 2006
CARNIVAL AUSTRALIA	09 Feb 2005
COSTA CRUISES	16 Feb 2004
CUNARD	16 Feb 2004
P & O CRUISES	16 Feb 2004
PRINCESS CRUISES	16 Feb 2004
SEABOURN CRUISE LINE	16 Feb 2004
WCL	16 Feb 2004
WORLD'S LEADING CRUISE LINES	16 Feb 2004

Trading name	From
P&O Cruises Australia	16 Feb 2004

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by dizzy1948

[Aus Traveller]

18 minutes ago, dizzy1948 said:

Carnival Australia does exist inasmuch as it's ABN NO is registered to Carnival Australia but it's trading name is P & O Cruises. ABN 23 107 998 443

below are the business names

This is an extract from the ABR - sorry about the black lettering, I don't know how to make it go away.

Here's the link  https://abr.business.gov.au/ABN/View?abn=23107998443

The corporate structure of Carnival came under discussion in the context of suing the company. Carnival Australia is a Business Name. Under Australian law, a Business Name is not a 'legal entity', in that it cannot be sued directly. It is the owners of the Business Name who are sued. 

[VK3DQ]

18 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

The corporate structure of Carnival came under discussion in the context of suing the company. Carnival Australia is a Business Name. Under Australian law, a Business Name is not a 'legal entity', in that it cannot be sued directly. It is the owners of the Business Name who are sued. 

Hi 

 

But who owns the ship and who manages the ship ...

[dizzy1948]

43 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

The corporate structure of Carnival came under discussion in the context of suing the company. Carnival Australia is a Business Name. Under Australian law, a Business Name is not a 'legal entity', in that it cannot be sued directly. It is the owners of the Business Name who are sued. 

There you go - learn something new everyday. As far as I knew companies with ABN/ACN are legal entities in Aus and are "responsible" for all aspects of their business here. 

Oh wow, it's all messy.🥴and P & O Aus are the main entity - trading as...….

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by dizzy1948

[VK3DQ]

Each ship will be a law to itself and Flag State law will be paramount in any litigation  so be prepared for a trip to a remote courthouse in that Flag state