Orlando Ashford needs to resign now!

[KirkNC]

Let’s dispel the notion that HAL is being slow because they don’t have the cash.  Over the last several months CCL has raised over $9 billion in cash (credit line draw down, stock sale and debt offering).  They have the cash.  Now how long it will last is debatable, according to them 12 months and that includes refunding the billions they currently owe thousands of their customers.

Edited May 11, 2020 by KirkNC

[kenphy]

Frankly, although it is a horrible situation all around, we have been communicated with fairly and reasonably.  I think Mr. Ashford has done a terrific job keeping us informed all along.  Since no one could possibly have been prepared for this disaster, I am thrilled with how Holland has keep us up to date on our cancelled cruise and our newly booked replacement cruise.  I am still wondering what else customers would have liked from Holland -- we know what is happening and they are doing exactly what they said this would do.  I cannot imagine how difficult it is to work there now.

[CruiserBruce]

30 minutes ago, kenphy said:

Frankly, although it is a horrible situation all around, we have been communicated with fairly and reasonably.  I think Mr. Ashford has done a terrific job keeping us informed all along.  Since no one could possibly have been prepared for this disaster, I am thrilled with how Holland has keep us up to date on our cancelled cruise and our newly booked replacement cruise.  I am still wondering what else customers would have liked from Holland -- we know what is happening and they are doing exactly what they said this would do.  I cannot imagine how difficult it is to work there now.

Hmmm....we have canceled, rebooked and have a large refund coming...and have heard nothing. Virtually everyone here has heard nothing. Consider yourself fortunate.

[Copper10-8]

14 hours ago, Captain Ricky said:

If you want the insider story from the other half of the inside read Captain Stephen Corcoran.  Steve was the XO on the USCG Cutter Boutwell.  He interviewed Coasties, Canadian Forces, US Air Force, Survivors from the ship and the first responders from Sitka, Valdz and Yakutat.  Full disclosure, he used some of my interviews from Sitka.  He also had access to both the USCG inquiry results and the Dutch Merchant Marine investigation as well as logs, radio logs form tankers etc.  

 

There is a third book "Burning Cold" by H Paul Jeffers.  Paul was a CBS reporter covering the story (As I was for Alaska Public Radio and NPR).  His book is more in the story telling style, so is a more entertaining read but since he got it out relatively quickly , before the inquiry reports from the USCG and the Dutch, it has some factual errors omissions and misinformation although generally it is a good account. 

 

.   

 

Didn't know about this one, thanks!

 

[RocketMan275]

3 hours ago, ON cruiser said:

 

In his ongoing defence of the cruise lines, RocketMan sets up a "straw man" by asserting that people are demanding their money "NOW"; not, frankly, that there is anything wrong with that, as it is their money, if it were true. Yet most--the majority that I can see from other postings--people are prepared to accept a reasonable schedule for a refund; say, 30 days, 60 at the outside, and only ask that the companies stick to their commitment, with clarity, communications, and integrity.

 

That does not seem to be happening with HAL. The timelines keep shifting outward (originally 14 days, then 30, then 60, now 60 or even 90 business days for some, etc.) and the communication has been inconsistent and poor. As CruiseMom notes above, other lines seem able to do this somewhat better than the CCL companies. That is what many, including me, find problematic. Yet, even if other companies were adhering to an unrealistic or anti-consumer standard, does not make it right. Nor is it acceptable.

 

As other posters have observed, we are not banks, and it is certainly not our obligation to unwittingly fund cruise lines (especially not interest-free). Their cash-flow problem is not mine. They should use their borrowed funds to take care of those passengers awaiting refunds, or they risk badly damaging the brands to many. 

 

Finally, for those waiting for refunds, like those who were "Waiting for Godot", if you need what you are entitled to sooner than the elastic and uncertain schedule of the cruise line, call your credit card issuer to at least explore a dispute. For those who can afford or wish to wait out of some sense of loyalty to a corporation (which will never reciprocate such unrequited love), good for you. Yet that choice is not at all the only moral or correct choice.

It isn't a strawman argument to point out the unreasonable demands some are placing on the cruise lines.  The cruise lines are facing a very complex and complicated set of problems in an environment of high uncertainty.

 

It is unreasonable to demand that the cruise lines establish a set of timelines for repayments.  The cruise lines have obligations, of which the repayments are one, but they also have higher priorities.  Payroll, energy costs, debt repayment, etc., etc.  They are paying their higher priority obligations first and then repaying their passengers as they have money available.  Since their revenues are uncertain, they cannot commit to a fixed repayment schedule.

 

Too many seem to think the cruise lines are being malicious.  They think the lines are sitting on this huge pile of cash they could be using to make repayments.  Simply not true.   Whether the other lines are doing better is simply irrelevant.  HAL isn't the other lines and it is understandable that they may be in a different situation that precludes making comparisons.

 

And, HAL's cash flow is all of our problems.  It's short sighted to make demands on HAL that might force HAL to make decisions that we might regret later.   

 

And, yes, many posters do come across like those in the commercial hanging out the window yelling "It's my money and I want it NOW!"

[RocketMan275]

4 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

There are people posting who have been waiting for their refund for two months, aka 60 days, already. They have not received it and they have not received any communications from HAL on when they CAN expect it.

 

Does this strike you as acceptable, especially when other companies in the same situation are doing a much better job?

 

It is acceptable as long as HAL is working to make the repayments as soon as possible.  It is very likely that HAL is facing a situation where they do not know when they will have the cash flow available to make those repayments.  And, no, HAL isn't going to make a statement to that effect.   The best course of action is patience.  

[cruisemom42]

7 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

 And, no, HAL isn't going to make a statement to that effect.   The best course of action is patience.  

 

Why not?  It's textbook Public Relations 101:  If you don't have all the information, tell them that, and tell them that you'll let them know as soon as you DO have it.

 

Another great maxim that companies who take PR seriously embrace is this one:  If you don't provide a narrative, they will make one up for themselves and it will not be likely to favor you."

[RocketMan275]

11 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Why not?  It's textbook Public Relations 101:  If you don't have all the information, tell them that, and tell them that you'll let them know as soon as you DO have it.

 

Another great maxim that companies who take PR seriously embrace is this one:  If you don't provide a narrative, they will make one up for themselves and it will not be likely to favor you."

One doesn't tell people that you don't have the necessary cash flow available unless you want to start a 'bank run'.

[cruisemom42]

17 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

One doesn't tell people that you don't have the necessary cash flow available unless you want to start a 'bank run'.

 

I never said you had to tell them that. There are many ways one can stand up and communicate that will reassure rather than scare people. As I'm quite sure you know.

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

43 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It is acceptable as long as HAL is working to make the repayments as soon as possible.  It is very likely that HAL is facing a situation where they do not know when they will have the cash flow available to make those repayments.  And, no, HAL isn't going to make a statement to that effect.   The best course of action is patience.  

 

33 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Why not?  It's textbook Public Relations 101:  If you don't have all the information, tell them that, and tell them that you'll let them know as soon as you DO have it.

 

Another great maxim that companies who take PR seriously embrace is this one:  If you don't provide a narrative, they will make one up for themselves and it will not be likely to favor you."

 

20 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

One doesn't tell people that you don't have the necessary cash flow available unless you want to start a 'bank run'.

 

2 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I never said you had to tell them that. There are many ways one can stand up and communicate that will reassure rather than scare people. As I'm quite sure you know.

Yes you did.

I said you don't want to say you have cash flow issues.

You asked "Why Not?".

[YXU AC*SE]

39 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

If you don't provide a narrative, they will make one up for themselves and it will not be likely to favor you."

 

Concur fully.   

 

What might be helpful?     Something that says, we have 520 voyages cancelled currently, which translates to an average of n refunds per voyage (average fleet-wide lower berth capacity ~1810, at 95% avg occupancy, with [one] account per cabin means 860 live refunds per voyage (give or take.)  We have all of our staff [x EQE] working from home remotely w/ [full, partial, limited] access to back-of-house systems. PCI-DSS compliance means we don't store live credit card numbers in our order systems any longer, so we have to manually match the refund to original payment media. That takes time to research and retrieve. Generally, good accounting practice has one person prepare the refund, with a second person to approve and issue the credit.  Currently we are processing y refunds per day, and on a sailing date basis, we are currently processing refunds with voyage date z.   

 

Or you can let ppl make stuff up.  Rather odd that HAL is choosing the latter.  Scott.   

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by YXU AC*SE

[RocketMan275]

5 minutes ago, YXU AC*SE said:

 

Concur fully.   

 

What might be helpful?     Something that says, we have 520 voyages cancelled currently, which translates to an average of n refunds per voyage (average fleet-wide lower berth capacity ~1810, at 95% avg occupancy, with [one] account per cabin means 860 live refunds per voyage (give or take.)  We have all of our staff [x EQE] working from home remotely w/ [full, partial, limited] access to back-of-house systems. PCI-DSS compliance means we don't store live credit card numbers in our order systems any longer, so we have to manually match the refund to original payment media. That takes time to research and retrieve. Generally, good accounting practice has one person prepare the refund, with a second person to approve and issue the credit.  Currently we are processing y refunds per day, and on a sailing date basis, we are currently processing refunds with voyage date z.   

 

Or you can let ppl make stuff up.  Rather odd that HAL is choosing the latter.  Scott.   

 

 

That's a nice attempt but it doesn't address the demands for concrete schedules for repayment.

You can't stop people from making things up.  People would claim that statement is nothing more than an excuse.

[rotjeknor]

1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Didn't know about this one, thanks!

 

My father was Marine Superintendent with HAL at the time. I remember him being paged at Schiphol airport when this happened( No mobile phones back then). He was planning  to go New York , but flew to Anchorage instead.  Afterwards he was , of course, present at the hearings in The Netherlands. I recently got in contact with the son of one of the engineers who was onboard. So sad that the ship could have been saved.

[ON cruiser]

I respectfully disagree with all that Rocketman posts. There is nothing wrong, and everything right, about those who are owed a refund being provided with clear communication, and a schedule. Moreover, that others are doing things better in that regard is highly relevant.

 

As to somehow being short-sighted by making demands on HAL that we may regret later, if Rocketman is raising the spectre of bankruptcy or restructuring, that may or may not already be in the cards. While, as a 5 Star mariner, I would be sorry to see HAL vanish, CCL restructuring its various subsidiaries is a real possibility. In any case, the ocean floor is filled with former lines that exist nowadays only via fond memories--the cruising public survived those failures (Home Line, Sitmar, to name just a few) and, when/if we can return to cruising or desire doing so, the public will survive further changes as the marketplace determines.

 

If the CCL companies treat their customers worse than others, leaving a bad taste in our mouths, then when cruising begins, former loyal CCL customers (the cheerleaders excepted, of course!) may be incited to look elsewhere.     

[YXU AC*SE]

 

19 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

 People would claim that statement is nothing more than an excuse.

 

Correct.  Conspiracy theorists will always theorise.   But basic comms -- which comes down to an acknowledgement and description of the issue(s), a plan to remediate, and a mean time to resolution, would likely satisfy most of us.   What is missing, as @cruisemom42 so adroitly points out, is that basic comms.     Scott. 

[1ANGELCAT]

2 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Didn't know about this one, thanks!

 

Copper, are any these books still in print and able to be ordered ? 
I was on the old Volendam sailing to Bermuda when this happened. I still remember my dining room steward drawing on a paper doily “Bye bye Prinsendam Have nice swim”.

 

[VMax1700]

12 minutes ago, 1ANGELCAT said:

Copper, are any these books still in print and able to be ordered ? 
I was on the old Volendam sailing to Bermuda when this happened. I still remember my dining room steward drawing on a paper doily “Bye bye Prinsendam Have nice swim”.

 

seems to be available here

[Copper10-8]

13 minutes ago, 1ANGELCAT said:

Copper, are any these books still in print and able to be ordered ? 
I was on the old Volendam sailing to Bermuda when this happened. I still remember my dining room steward drawing on a paper doily “Bye bye Prinsendam Have nice swim”.

 

 

I just ordered None were lost - https://gorhamprinting.com/book/none-were-lost

 

Burning Cold - https://www.amazon.com/Burning-Cold-Cruise-Prinsendam-Greatest/dp/0760320799

 

The' Prinsendam' Disaster, an Officer's Account" by Mathieu J. Oosterwijk - has been on eBay more than once

 

[KirkNC]

Please quit saying they don’t have the money to refund passengers, they do have the money.  Look at their financial statements!!!  Look at the +$9 billion in cash they raised.  I believe the truth is an elephant is trying to get through the eye of a needle.  They probably had one, maybe two people who processed refunds.  Now with tens of thousands of refunds, some complicated by formulas of 50% and 125% they don’t have enough resources to make a dent.  And the pile keeps growing as they cancel more cruises.  Good leadership would redeploy people to assist in the refund process.  Not sure that is happening.  Good leadership also communicates to passengers and helps manage expectations.  Most of us (with one recent poster as the exception) have not heard diddly.  

[YXU AC*SE]

37 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

Please quit saying they don’t have the money to refund passengers, they do have the money.  

 

 

Across all brands of Carnival Corp: 

 

Source: Carnival Corporation & plc First Quarter Report 2020 aka Form 10-Q   https://www.carnivalcorp.com/static-files/1aa63f22-c821-4e1f-b48b-98aab1d754ad                 Scott. 

[Captain Ricky]

2 hours ago, rotjeknor said:

My father was Marine Superintendent with HAL at the time. I remember him being paged at Schiphol airport when this happened( No mobile phones back then). He was planning  to go New York , but flew to Anchorage instead.  Afterwards he was , of course, present at the hearings in The Netherlands. I recently got in contact with the son of one of the engineers who was onboard. So sad that the ship could have been saved.

Thanks for these pictures.  I have a lot of pics in my files but not these.  As far as the comment that she could have been saved, that is probably true but at what environmental cost?  HAL wanted to bring her into one of the bays near Sitka to put out the fire but the US Forest Service denied permission for environmental reasons.  The fear was oil and other pollution interfering with Salmon migration.  Prinsendam would have been pulled into a bay just at the time some species of salmon smolt would be migrating from their streams to the ocean.  Then there would be the possibility of oiling coastline where Herring would be spawning in 5 months.  So the decision was made in favor of the fish.  I can't fault that decision.

[KirkNC]

22 minutes ago, YXU AC*SE said:

 

 

Across all brands of Carnival Corp: 

 

Source: Carnival Corporation & plc First Quarter Report 2020 aka Form 10-Q   https://www.carnivalcorp.com/static-files/1aa63f22-c821-4e1f-b48b-98aab1d754ad                 Scott. 

Yes and after their cash raise they have something around $11 billion.  Plus approximately half of those refunds are taking FCC so $11 billion minus $2.3 billion leaves plenty of money for their other current liabilities.  

Edited May 11, 2020 by KirkNC

[YXU AC*SE]

55 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

Yes and after their cash raise they have something around $11 billion.  Plus approximately half of those refunds are taking FCC so $11 billion minus $2.3 billion leaves plenty of money for their other current liabilities.  

 

( I'm agreeing with you  🙂 )     Scott. 

 

Source: Carnival Corporation & plc First Quarter Report 2020 aka Form 10-Q   https://www.carnivalcorp.com/static-files/1aa63f22-c821-4e1f-b48b-98aab1d754ad   

[KirkNC]

1 minute ago, YXU AC*SE said:

 

( I'm agreeing with you  🙂 )     Scott. 

 

Source: Carnival Corporation & plc First Quarter Report 2020 aka Form 10-Q   https://www.carnivalcorp.com/static-files/1aa63f22-c821-4e1f-b48b-98aab1d754ad   

Sorry, that happens so rarely ....also note in above the part about "cash refunds of customers deposits".

[Captain Ricky]

HAL’s communications have been terrible from the start of the Corona Virus crisis.  We were on the 2020 World Cruise on MS Amsterdam.  The first word I got that our cruise was ending in Fremantle was from a Holland American press release I read on line.  Lots of passengers read this and the rumor spread.  As it spread it was distorted.  I suspect the captain was blindsided by Seattle.

 

It was only several hours later the Captain confirmed the cancelation.  Panic spread among some of the passengers because many were told that they had to make their own reservations home from Perth.  A whole set of people felt “abandoned.”  The lines at the service desk were long, people looked stricken, were getting testy and the staff behind the desk were taking abuse they didn’t deserve.  

 

This went on for almost two days when the Captain came on the pa to say we would be getting a letter outlining new procedures later that night; “stay calm and please don’t mob the desk.”  The letter didn’t come that night. When I got up in the morning, I had an email from my travel agent with “the letter.”  Seattle released a letter to TAs before the Captain got to release on board setting off a new round of rumors, concern and panic.  The information in the letter to the TA was different from what the captain had been telling us!  I went to the Guest Services Director, Crystal, and told her they had been blindsided.  She knew.  When the letter actually came from the Captain later in the day it was different in material ways from what my TA sent, for instance, the captain told us that now HAL would help anyone who needed it get reservations home.

 

After we got home, we all got a letter from Orlando explaining that the disconnect in communication was because time zones and the dateline caused information to come out from Seattle while we were all asleep.  I found this answer disingenuous.  The information from Seattle and from the Captain were different.  I can understand that the situation was changing quickly and, in an effort to get information out, Seattle issued press releases and sent a letter to my TA prematurely.  But I would feel better about HAL if Orlando had simply owned up the mess up in their communications, said it was because of the fast-moving and confusing situation, and then simply said “sorry.”  Making the time zone/dateline excuse has made me less trustful of HAL communications.  Perhaps it’s better that we don’t hear much from them.

 

Having said that, I loved our half world cruise and would do it again!  I may feel differently if I don’t get my refund close to the promised time without a very good explanation.  Agreed, first job for HAL is taking care of crew, but for their future they also need to take care of their customer base.