Orlando Ashford needs to resign now!

[dave34]

15 minutes ago, Despegue said:

Almost correct.

it must be RED Star Line, Belgium’s Transatlantic Line, absorbed by HAL at one point 😉 

 

seriously though, we can complain about refunds, late or non-existing communication etc etc. But do realize that at the moment, thousands of HAL employees and Crewmembers are without salaries, at home facing a highly uncertain future for them and their families .

Maybe we should have a thought for them iso. Complaining that an email is not forthcoming immediately.

Maybe we also need to think about the people that have lost jobs and need the money that HAL is holding that doesn’t belong to them. 

[Despegue]

7 minutes ago, dave34 said:

Maybe we also need to think about the people that have lost jobs and need the money that HAL is holding that doesn’t belong to them. 

People were happy parting with their money when they booked the cruise. Yes, refunds should be given and within a certain timespan, but we are talking about people’s livelyhoods and careers here.

there is no bloody comparison.

[dave34]

2 minutes ago, Despegue said:

People were happy parting with their money when they booked the cruise. Yes, refunds should be given and within a certain timespan, but we are talking about people’s livelyhoods and careers here.

there is no bloody comparison.

You think the people that paid HAL this money are not worried about their livelihoods and careers? Unbelievable how people will back HAL to hell and back. Bottom line,HAL owe people  money and they need to pay them. 

[rkacruiser]

4 hours ago, trident said:

I have read the insider version of what happened on the Prinsendam I, the book is called "The' Prinsendam' Disaster, an Officer's Account" by Mathieu J. Oosterwijk.  I found it in a maritime book store in Amsterdam in 2019.  It was originally published in Dutch but was able to order it in English.  It is a fascinating account of the disaster.

 

Thank you for this tip.  I have just ordered the book.

[Captain Ricky]

15 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

And King John I...

Richard III

[Captain Ricky]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Thank you for this tip.  I have just ordered the book.

If you want the insider story from the other half of the inside read Captain Stephen Corcoran.  Steve was the XO on the USCG Cutter Boutwell.  He interviewed Coasties, Canadian Forces, US Air Force, Survivors from the ship and the first responders from Sitka, Valdz and Yakutat.  Full disclosure, he used some of my interviews from Sitka.  He also had access to both the USCG inquiry results and the Dutch Merchant Marine investigation as well as logs, radio logs form tankers etc.  

 

There is a third book "Burning Cold" by H Paul Jeffers.  Paul was a CBS reporter covering the story (As I was for Alaska Public Radio and NPR).  His book is more in the story telling style, so is a more entertaining read but since he got it out relatively quickly , before the inquiry reports from the USCG and the Dutch, it has some factual errors omissions and misinformation although generally it is a good account. 

 

.   

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

On 5/9/2020 at 12:40 PM, JT1962 said:

I would not be surprised to see Holland America and Princess be merged, sold or their ships re-branded under other Carnival Corp lines at some point in the future. Both have been the focus of much of the bad publicity related to Covid-19 and cruising and to the general public, perception is reality.

More than just bad publicity - the track record itself was awful. CCL and subsidiaries bungled it every step of the way. Maybe Swartz, Donald, Duffy & Ashford should all go. 

[cruiser4801]

Agree. Carnival and HAL are totally mismanaged.  So is NCL.  Disney and RCCL are the best managed in the bunch.

[Sporthorse Cruise]

8 hours ago, tommui987 said:

 

Would "mishandling" apply to our political leadership as well? How far up or down should we blame?

Is Hawaii still having problems ? 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Sporthorse Cruise

[Boatdrill]

33 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

More than just bad publicity - the track record itself was awful. CCL and subsidiaries bungled it every step of the way. Maybe Swartz, Donald, Duffy & Ashford should all go. 

Interesting that the crisis isn't even over yet, and people are calling for resignations.  🙄

 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

17 minutes ago, Boatdrill said:

Interesting that the crisis isn't even over yet, and people are calling for resignations.  🙄

 

Every investor who has watched the CCL debacle from Diamond through Ruby should be demanding the board clean house .... no reason to wait for resignations. 😊

[Copper10-8]

5 hours ago, Despegue said:

Almost correct.

it must be RED Star Line, Belgium’s Transatlantic Line, absorbed by HAL at one point 😉 ..............................

 

You Belgians had a cruise line???????? Round trip to Boma the Congo? 😉 

[ON cruiser]

5 hours ago, Despegue said:

People were happy parting with their money when they booked the cruise. Yes, refunds should be given and within a certain timespan, but we are talking about people’s livelyhoods and careers here.

there is no bloody comparison.

 

To be clear, I have no opinion on whether HAL or CCL management should resign--as compared to the executives at other cruise lines, I have no basis to say the CCL team is any better or worse.  They are probably doing as well as they believe they can, given all the circumstances. That refunds are taking as long as they are for sure is not satisfactory, but I am not at this stage calling for anyone to walk the plank (given we are talking of a cruise organization, a nautical term seemed apt).

 

What I am fussed about is the attitude of some posters that those asking for refunds are somehow wrong, or are overly impatient. The excuse for this is as Despeque wrote above--in essence, you could afford it at the time.

 

Yet, as I posted on another thread, the times have changed. Imagine that you are a successful business owner of, say, a retail store or a restaurant. Things are going well and you can afford a cruise holiday. Then, Covid enters the picture, your cruise is cancelled by the cruise line, and your establishment is shuttered so you have no income coming in--which is the fate of many. Can you use your refund now, to pay your rent or mortgage, or your staff, or your bank or suppliers, or to feed your family? Of course!   

 

Same analysis applies if you are a manager in a business that no longer has a revenue stream--you agree to a 20% or greater pay cut to keep your job and help your employer "save the furniture", hoping better days return. Or you are a young associate accountant or other professional, a dentist or hygienist, just getting started, with a mortgage, and little or no income coming in and lots of demands on your monies. Can you use your refund now, rather than waiting 90 days? You betcha!  What was budgeted for as a vacation is no longer a viable plan, just as the prior year's government budget is also blown by this.  

 

Moreover, the refund due is your money. You have a right to it, unapologetically. Whether the corporate entities have to restructure or not, is not the concern of anyone owed monies for services not rendered. If people can afford to wait, great. For those who cannot, the anxiety is real. Hopefully those people will avail themselves of the credit card dispute option to speed up the process.

 

I really hope that posters who throw in the face the statement that "you could afford it when you booked" reconsider, and try to walk a mile in the shoes of those people who, for whatever reason, want or need the monies they are legitimately owed.

[DeeDee Groff]

As a person who lacks both diplomacy and tact, I congratulate you on this wonderful post!

[Captain Ricky]

12 minutes ago, ON cruiser said:

 

To be clear, I have no opinion on whether HAL or CCL management should resign--as compared to the executives at other cruise lines, I have no basis to say the CCL team is any better or worse.  They are probably doing as well as they believe they can, given all the circumstances. That refunds are taking as long as they are for sure is not satisfactory, but I am not at this stage calling for anyone to walk the plank (given we are talking of a cruise organization, a nautical term seemed apt).

 

What I am fussed about is the attitude of some posters that those asking for refunds are somehow wrong, or are overly impatient. The excuse for this is as Despeque wrote above--in essence, you could afford it at the time.

 

Yet, as I posted on another thread, the times have changed. Imagine that you are a successful business owner of, say, a retail store or a restaurant. Things are going well and you can afford a cruise holiday. Then, Covid enters the picture, your cruise is cancelled by the cruise line, and your establishment is shuttered so you have no income coming in--which is the fate of many. Can you use your refund now, to pay your rent or mortgage, or your staff, or your bank or suppliers, or to feed your family? Of course!   

 

Same analysis applies if you are a manager in a business that no longer has a revenue stream--you agree to a 20% or greater pay cut to keep your job and help your employer "save the furniture", hoping better days return. Or you are a young associate accountant or other professional, a dentist or hygienist, just getting started, with a mortgage, and little or no income coming in and lots of demands on your monies. Can you use your refund now, rather than waiting 90 days? You betcha!  What was budgeted for as a vacation is no longer a viable plan, just as the prior year's government budget is also blown by this.  

 

Moreover, the refund due is your money. You have a right to it, unapologetically. Whether the corporate entities have to restructure or not, is not the concern of anyone owed monies for services not rendered. If people can afford to wait, great. For those who cannot, the anxiety is real. Hopefully those people will avail themselves of the credit card dispute option to speed up the process.

 

I really hope that posters who throw in the face the statement that "you could afford it when you booked" reconsider, and try to walk a mile in the shoes of those people who, for whatever reason, want or need the monies they are legitimately owed.

Not to mention kids who have suddenly lost jobs, lost health coverage and still have mortgages and kids to feed.  Would I rather float CCL or my family?  I'm sure you know the answer, probably same as yours.

 

I am not dunning HAL with letters and calls.  I am working on not being upset because it helps nothing, it just makes me less effective.  I am happy to have the money I have gotten back from HAL in my account but I do hope that the rest appears within the originally promised 60 days.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Captain Ricky

[Sir PMP]

1 hour ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

You Belgians had a cruise line???????? Round trip to Boma the Congo? 😉 

It's called Luik-Bastenaken-Luik

[Despegue]

6 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

You Belgians had a cruise line???????? Round trip to Boma the Congo? 😉 

Always like a Tintin Adventure!  Anybody wanting to work as Captain will need to be able to swear like Captain Haddock ( and grow a beard).

[Despegue]

6 hours ago, ON cruiser said:

 

To be clear, I have no opinion on whether HAL or CCL management should resign--as compared to the executives at other cruise lines, I have no basis to say the CCL team is any better or worse.  They are probably doing as well as they believe they can, given all the circumstances. That refunds are taking as long as they are for sure is not satisfactory, but I am not at this stage calling for anyone to walk the plank (given we are talking of a cruise organization, a nautical term seemed apt).

 

What I am fussed about is the attitude of some posters that those asking for refunds are somehow wrong, or are overly impatient. The excuse for this is as Despeque wrote above--in essence, you could afford it at the time.

 

Yet, as I posted on another thread, the times have changed. Imagine that you are a successful business owner of, say, a retail store or a restaurant. Things are going well and you can afford a cruise holiday. Then, Covid enters the picture, your cruise is cancelled by the cruise line, and your establishment is shuttered so you have no income coming in--which is the fate of many. Can you use your refund now, to pay your rent or mortgage, or your staff, or your bank or suppliers, or to feed your family? Of course!   

 

Same analysis applies if you are a manager in a business that no longer has a revenue stream--you agree to a 20% or greater pay cut to keep your job and help your employer "save the furniture", hoping better days return. Or you are a young associate accountant or other professional, a dentist or hygienist, just getting started, with a mortgage, and little or no income coming in and lots of demands on your monies. Can you use your refund now, rather than waiting 90 days? You betcha!  What was budgeted for as a vacation is no longer a viable plan, just as the prior year's government budget is also blown by this.  

 

Moreover, the refund due is your money. You have a right to it, unapologetically. Whether the corporate entities have to restructure or not, is not the concern of anyone owed monies for services not rendered. If people can afford to wait, great. For those who cannot, the anxiety is real. Hopefully those people will avail themselves of the credit card dispute option to speed up the process.

 

I really hope that posters who throw in the face the statement that "you could afford it when you booked" reconsider, and try to walk a mile in the shoes of those people who, for whatever reason, want or need the monies they are legitimately owed.

I do understand your point.

I myself am not working purely due to Covid19 and the collapse of the travel industry.

[ski ww]

7 hours ago, ON cruiser said:

 

To be clear, I have no opinion on whether HAL or CCL management should resign--as compared to the executives at other cruise lines, I have no basis to say the CCL team is any better or worse.  They are probably doing as well as they believe they can, given all the circumstances. That refunds are taking as long as they are for sure is not satisfactory, but I am not at this stage calling for anyone to walk the plank (given we are talking of a cruise organization, a nautical term seemed apt).

 

What I am fussed about is the attitude of some posters that those asking for refunds are somehow wrong, or are overly impatient. The excuse for this is as Despeque wrote above--in essence, you could afford it at the time.

 

Yet, as I posted on another thread, the times have changed. Imagine that you are a successful business owner of, say, a retail store or a restaurant. Things are going well and you can afford a cruise holiday. Then, Covid enters the picture, your cruise is cancelled by the cruise line, and your establishment is shuttered so you have no income coming in--which is the fate of many. Can you use your refund now, to pay your rent or mortgage, or your staff, or your bank or suppliers, or to feed your family? Of course!   

 

Same analysis applies if you are a manager in a business that no longer has a revenue stream--you agree to a 20% or greater pay cut to keep your job and help your employer "save the furniture", hoping better days return. Or you are a young associate accountant or other professional, a dentist or hygienist, just getting started, with a mortgage, and little or no income coming in and lots of demands on your monies. Can you use your refund now, rather than waiting 90 days? You betcha!  What was budgeted for as a vacation is no longer a viable plan, just as the prior year's government budget is also blown by this.  

 

Moreover, the refund due is your money. You have a right to it, unapologetically. Whether the corporate entities have to restructure or not, is not the concern of anyone owed monies for services not rendered. If people can afford to wait, great. For those who cannot, the anxiety is real. Hopefully those people will avail themselves of the credit card dispute option to speed up the process.

 

I really hope that posters who throw in the face the statement that "you could afford it when you booked" reconsider, and try to walk a mile in the shoes of those people who, for whatever reason, want or need the monies they are legitimately owed.

Very well put, I agree with you.

[RocketMan275]

7 hours ago, ON cruiser said:

I really hope that posters who throw in the face the statement that "you could afford it when you booked" reconsider, and try to walk a mile in the shoes of those people who, for whatever reason, want or need the monies they are legitimately owed.

Perhaps those who are demanding their money NOW!, should also try to walk a mile in the shoes of the cruise line.  There appears to be a belief that the cruise lines are sitting on this pile of cash which could be refunded NOW!.   The cruise lines have a very big cash flow problem.  They have to balance income and expenses.  It's very uncertain how much they will have in the bank today or tomorrow.  It appears that they are sending out refunds as cash becomes available.  It does no good to demand refund timetables from the cruise lines when the cruise lines are working through this period of uncertainty.

 

I'm sure there are those who do need the money now.  However, the most commonly heard rationale for a refund is the fear that the cruise lines will go bankrupt.

[cruisemom42]

23 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Perhaps those who are demanding their money NOW!, should also try to walk a mile in the shoes of the cruise line.  There appears to be a belief that the cruise lines are sitting on this pile of cash which could be refunded NOW!

 

There are people posting who have been waiting for their refund for two months, aka 60 days, already. They have not received it and they have not received any communications from HAL on when they CAN expect it.

 

Does this strike you as acceptable, especially when other companies in the same situation are doing a much better job?

 

[ON cruiser]

55 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Perhaps those who are demanding their money NOW!, should also try to walk a mile in the shoes of the cruise line.  There appears to be a belief that the cruise lines are sitting on this pile of cash which could be refunded NOW!.   The cruise lines have a very big cash flow problem. 

 

In his ongoing defence of the cruise lines, RocketMan sets up a "straw man" by asserting that people are demanding their money "NOW"; not, frankly, that there is anything wrong with that, as it is their money, if it were true. Yet most--the majority that I can see from other postings--people are prepared to accept a reasonable schedule for a refund; say, 30 days, 60 at the outside, and only ask that the companies stick to their commitment, with clarity, communications, and integrity.

 

That does not seem to be happening with HAL. The timelines keep shifting outward (originally 14 days, then 30, then 60, now 60 or even 90 business days for some, etc.) and the communication has been inconsistent and poor. As CruiseMom notes above, other lines seem able to do this somewhat better than the CCL companies. That is what many, including me, find problematic. Yet, even if other companies were adhering to an unrealistic or anti-consumer standard, does not make it right. Nor is it acceptable.

 

As other posters have observed, we are not banks, and it is certainly not our obligation to unwittingly fund cruise lines (especially not interest-free). Their cash-flow problem is not mine. They should use their borrowed funds to take care of those passengers awaiting refunds, or they risk badly damaging the brands to many. 

 

Finally, for those waiting for refunds, like those who were "Waiting for Godot", if you need what you are entitled to sooner than the elastic and uncertain schedule of the cruise line, call your credit card issuer to at least explore a dispute. For those who can afford or wish to wait out of some sense of loyalty to a corporation (which will never reciprocate such unrequited love), good for you. Yet that choice is not at all the only moral or correct choice.

[Himself]

18 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Besides the infamous Prinsendam I (a good read of her sinking in the Gulf of Alaska with no lives lost can be found in "Burning Cold" by H. Paul Jeffers) some likewise events, purely for HAL trivia purposes, so there does not appear to be a maritime tradition that prevents ships being christened under the same name of their predecessor which sank, etc.:

 

Maasdam I, on 24 October 1884, while underway from Rotterdam to New York, caught fire which resulted in all passengers and crew having to abandon her. Maasdam I subsequently sank in the Atlantic Ocean.

 

Maasdam III while being operated by the British Ministry of War Transport, on 26 June 1941 while sailing from Halifax, NS to Liverpool, England, was attacked and torpedoed by the German Kriegsmarine (Navy) sub U-564. She sank as a result of this attack with two loss of life among her crew.

 

Rotterdam I, on 26 September, 1883 ran aground on the Zeehondenbank (Sealbank) off Schouwen in the Dutch Province of Zeeland. The ship was subsequently abandoned, broke in two parts on 12 October of that year, and went down with the fishes.

 

Statendam III, while laid up in Rotterdam during the German invasion of the Netherlands in May 1940, was repeatedly hit by bombs as well as caught in a crossfire. For three days, the ship burned out of control with the only two items salvageable, those being her ship’s bell and the Dutch flag that flew from her stern. She was scrapped in August of the following year.
 

Veendam I, on 06 February 1898, while underway from Rotterdam to New York, struck a submerged wreck which resulted in a broken propellor shaft and flooding of the vessel. Passengers and crew abandoned ship, were rescued by the American steamer St. Louis, and brought the New York City. Veendam I sank the following day on 07 February 1898 

Zaandam II, while being operated by the British Ministry of War Transport and sailing between Cape Town, South Africa and New York City, on 02 November 1942, was torpedoed by the German Kriegsmarine (Navy) U-boat U-174, some 300 miles off the coast of Brazil and sank, tragically with 135 of her occupants killed or missing at sea. There were 169 survivors.

 

Zuiderdam I was launched from the Wilton-Feijenoord shipyard in Schiedam for outfitting in 1941. However, on 28 August 1941, she was damaged and capsized during a British air raid. The German occupiers raised her hull but later sunk her again to block the port of Rotterdam to allied forces. She was raised once again after World War Two, but never completed.

 

 

 

John:  I used to teach History.   You would get an "A+" in my class.   You know your Holland America History.

[ew101]

I was impressed by the recent ship and crew rescue mission undertaken by HAL down near Panama.  The US CDC picked it up as a best practice for the industry.  And it was all reported in detail and in near real time on Facebook- the best practice for PR these days is honesty and disclosure.  These are strategy decisions undertaken by senior leadership. 

 

The industry has an issue with massive refund and cancellation volumes - in the face of zero revenue to pay the bills.  I'm having trouble summoning much anger and indignation over this.  

[avian777]

21 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

You do realize that every mass market cruise line forum on this site is filled with similar complaints.  That should tell you that this isn't a problem unique to Holland or to Ashford.

 

I suspect that your emails aren't the biggest problem on Ashford's plate.

 

22 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

I enjoy reading all the comments on how to run a cruise line from those who may never even owned a boat.

 

Spot on, RocketMan275, and thanks for sharing your on-the-mark comments!