Carnival Corp to retire 6 ships in next 90 days

[BlerkOne]

As Carnival Corp doesn't release numbers for individual cruise lines, much less ships, I am highly amused by those who allege Fantasy class (or any class) ships are financially less rewarding or more likely to go first.

[SeaHunt]

2 hours ago, Travelnplane said:

Two of the older P&O Australia are already slated for a new operator. Pacific Aria will become „Ida Pfeiffer“ and Pacific Dawn will become „Amy Johnson“ both with CMV Cruise & Maritime Voyages. Both were scheduled to enter service with CMV in 2021.  Wonder if these two are included in the 6 ships to leave. 

 

Uh oh. 

 

"Just today, for example, reports surfaced that British cruise company Cruise and Maritime Voyages after having been forced to extend its cruise suspension to the end of August is scrambling to raise funds. The Guardian newspaper published a report saying the company had failed to complete a loan putting it into an emergency situation. Currently operating six cruise ships and with commitments to acquire two additional ships from Carnival Corporation in 2021, CMV’s collapse could send shockwaves through the industry".

 

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/government-banks-providing-cruise-lines-with-financial-lfeline

[UPNYGuy]

39 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

As Carnival Corp doesn't release numbers for individual cruise lines, much less ships, I am highly amused by those who allege Fantasy class (or any class) ships are financially less rewarding or more likely to go first.

smaller ships (when the per diem is the same) are factually less profitable than larger vessels. If you have a 2000 pax vessel with similar per diem as a 3000 pax vessel, the smaller one will be less profitable. Plus, the fantasy class does not have the revenue generating area (specialty restaurants and whatnot) that the larger vessels do. The crew command will be roughly the same cost, as you need the same number of officers on a smaller ship as a larger one.
 

It is one of the chief reasons why Oceania and Azamara are more expensive. They physically have to be to be profitable. Carnival clientele won’t pay more to sail on an older fantasy class. There is a reason why they usually do shorter cruises. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[NightOne]

22 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

smaller ships (when the per diem is the same) are factually less profitable than larger vessels. If you have a 2000 pax vessel with similar per diem as a 3000 pax vessel, the smaller one will be less profitable. Plus, the fantasy class does not have the revenue generating area (specialty restaurants and whatnot) that the larger vessels do. The crew command will be roughly the same cost, as you need the same number of officers on a smaller ship as a larger one.
 

It is one of the chief reasons why Oceania and Azamara are more expensive. They physically have to be to be profitable. Carnival clientele won’t pay more to sail on an older fantasy class. There is a reason why they usually do shorter cruises. 

 

Not entirely accurate. Profitability of a particular ship has a lot of other factors.

 

Just some examples:

 

Fuel Cost

Crew Size

Onboard Spend

Loan Payments on Vessel 

etc.

 

The Fantasy class ships haven't hung around this long because they are money losers. 🙂

 

 

[UPNYGuy]

11 minutes ago, NightOne said:

 

Not entirely accurate. Profitability of a particular ship has a lot of other factors.

 

Just some examples:

 

Fuel Cost

Crew Size

Onboard Spend

Loan Payments on Vessel 

etc.

 

The Fantasy class ships haven't hung around this long because they are money losers. 🙂

 

 

they are paid off, that is true. I didn’t take that part into consideration. I did with onboard spend, because the fantasy class does not have as many areas that are revenue generating. But, they have a fairly high density for the size so they carry a decent load in the hotel. 
 

never said they lost money, but taking a look at things right now, I’m thinking those might be the ones that go. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[BlerkOne]

35 minutes ago, UPNYGuy said:

smaller ships (when the per diem is the same) are factually less profitable than larger vessels. If you have a 2000 pax vessel with similar per diem as a 3000 pax vessel, the smaller one will be less profitable. Plus, the fantasy class does not have the revenue generating area (specialty restaurants and whatnot) that the larger vessels do. The crew command will be roughly the same cost, as you need the same number of officers on a smaller ship as a larger one.
 

It is one of the chief reasons why Oceania and Azamara are more expensive. They physically have to be to be profitable. Carnival clientele won’t pay more to sail on an older fantasy class. There is a reason why they usually do shorter cruises. 

 

Smaller ships have ready access to more ports, especially those not ready to take a chance on large number of cruisers.

 

The larger ships have more displacement and more dead weight to push around, as well as wind resistance.

 

The number of officers is negligible compared to the number of other crew.

 

The more snooty lines charge more because they have better service, more crew, better china, antiques, etc. The ships cost more to begin with.

[UPNYGuy]

20 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

 

Smaller ships have ready access to more ports, especially those not ready to take a chance on large number of cruisers.

 

The larger ships have more displacement and more dead weight to push around, as well as wind resistance.

 

The number of officers is negligible compared to the number of other crew.

 

The more snooty lines charge more because they have better service, more crew, better china, antiques, etc. The ships cost more to begin with.

1) true

 

2) newer ships are Hydrodynamically designed. MSC Meraviglia has pods only 2MW more than Carnival Pride, yet has over twice the capacity. Using that logic, the pods should require twice the propulsion power. Newer larger ships are simply more efficient on a per pax basis

 

3) trained mariners are far more expensive than service staff

 

4) I have been on some of the snooty lines. Not all have better service or more crew. If you are talking about a brand new ship, yes that applies. Azamara on the other hand buys used and refurbishes. 

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[BlerkOne]

1 minute ago, UPNYGuy said:

1) true

 

2) newer ships are Hydrodynamically designed. MSC Meraviglia has pods only 2MW more than Carnival Pride, yet has over twice the capacity. Using that logic, the pods should require twice the propulsion power. Newer larger ships are simply more efficient on a per pax basis

 

I have been in ports where an azipod Fantasy class ship easily pulled away from a dock in a crosswind and a larger Carnival ship require the assistance of a tug.

 

1 minute ago, UPNYGuy said:

 

3) trained mariners are far more expensive than service staff

 

Far more service staff, plumbers, electricians, etc. than senior officers. That is a common logic problem. A few experienced cruisers think they are worth more than all the novice cruisers. They aren't.

 

1 minute ago, UPNYGuy said:

 

4) I have been on some of the snooty lines. Not all have better service or more crew. If you are talking about a brand new ship, yes that applies. Azamara on the other hand buys used and refurbishes. 

 

 

They don't have 6000 passenger ships, either.

[UPNYGuy]

14 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

 

I have been in ports where an azipod Fantasy class ship easily pulled away from a dock in a crosswind and a larger Carnival ship require the assistance of a tug.

 

 

Far more service staff, plumbers, electricians, etc. than senior officers. That is a common logic problem. A few experienced cruisers think they are worth more than all the novice cruisers. They aren't.

 

 

They don't have 6000 passenger ships, either.

 

Maybe 35% of carnival ships are pod driven (2 fantasy class, the vistas and the spirits) out of the current fleet. I was going off of efficiency. Crosswinds can be an issue for non pod driven ships. Norwegian Epic has terrible issues docking due to crosswinds and currents (one of the reasons it was pulled from NYC). 
 

6000 pax ship logic doesn’t apply though. I can go into The Haven on a NCL ship or Yacht Club on MSC and get luxury level service on a mega ship.  

thank you for proving my point on the price points of small ships. They are buying older smaller ships and have to operate them at high price points to turn a profit they see fit. You can fill a 6000 pax ship at $1000 a pop. You can’t do that on a 600 pax ship. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[ilovetexas]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread (maybe I missed it) is the Fantasy Class ships have very few balcony rooms.  As cruise lines are looking at go-forward plans post Covid19 shut-down, that may be a factor.  They might be faced with requirements limiting the number of guests in rooms with no access to fresh air and/or there might not be as much demand for them over the next few years.  Just a thought.

[pinkie60]

8 hours ago, Saint Greg said:

I've been surprised that just in the short time I've been cruising they've added three ships and haven't retired any of the older ones. This seems like the perfect time to do it. Cruises are already canceled. Ships are nearly empty. I'd be contacting to the Bahamas Paradise people and see if they're looking to expand or upgrade.

In better times, I think BPCL would jump at the chance to buy another Carnival ship. However, their two ships have been sitting idle. One is still in the port of Palm Beach and the other is in Freeport awaiting an refit. Not sure if the latter will happen. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, UPNYGuy said:

Crosswinds can be an issue for non pod driven ships. Norwegian Epic has terrible issues docking due to crosswinds and currents (one of the reasons it was pulled from NYC). 

Sorry, that's a problem with training, not equipment.  Twin screw ship with Becker high-lift rudders and stern thrusters can maneuver as well as azipod equipped ships.  And, Carnival Horizon (azipods) hit the pier in NYC as well.

 

1 hour ago, UPNYGuy said:

newer ships are Hydrodynamically designed. MSC Meraviglia has pods only 2MW more than Carnival Pride, yet has over twice the capacity. Using that logic, the pods should require twice the propulsion power. Newer larger ships are simply more efficient on a per pax basis

Where in the world did you get the idea that propulsion power is equivalent to passenger capacity.  Power is not even proportional to gross tonnage.  Propulsive power is proportional to displacement, and I don't have data on the displacement of each ship, so there is no comparison basis.  Power also depends on waterline length, the longer the ship the higher the speed that is capable with rated power.

[Lottacruises]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Where in the world did you get the idea that propulsion power is equivalent to passenger capacity

 

Who knows where half the stuff that people post on here comes from. Most seems to be from their imagination.....

[poz222]

The Ecstasy and Fascination being deployed to India and not having been upgraded I would put my money on saying bye bye to those two. 

[Georgie562]

Imagination or Inspiation may be on the chopping block. Although popular for weekend cruises here in So. Cal., 2 of the same class of ships doing the exact same itinerary is not needed here in California.

[fstuff1]

8 hours ago, Essiesmom said:

As has been mantioned bafore on this thread, this is not just about Carnival Cruise Line, but about Carnival Corp.  So, let's look at the other lines in the family.  

Costa:  Victoria (1996) already sold?

              neoRomantica - 1993

              neoRiviera - 1999

 

AIDA:     AIDAcara, smallest and oldest @ 34,000, 1996

 

HAL:      Maasdam - 1993

               Veendam - 1996

               Rotterdam - 1996

               Volendam & Zaandam - 1999

 

P&O-AUS:  Pacific Dawn - 1991

                Pacific Aria - 1994

                Pacific Explorer - 1997

 

Carnival Cruise Lines:   Fantasy - 1990

                 Ecstasy - 1991

                 Sensation - 1993

                  Fascination - 1994

                  Imagination - 1995

                  Inspiration - 1996

                  Destiny (Sunshine) 1996

                  Elation - 1998

                  Paradise - 1998

                   Triumph (Sunshine) - 1999

                   Victory - 2000

 

Princess:  Sun Princess - 1995

                   Sea Princess - 1998

 

arent all the older ships paid off?

how much $ do they save per month then if no mortgage/loans on them?

skeleton crew salaries + insurance costs?

Edited June 19, 2020 by fstuff1

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, UPNYGuy said:

trained mariners are far more expensive than service staff

 

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Far more service staff, plumbers, electricians, etc. than senior officers.

Plumbers, electricians, and the painters you see around the ship are "trained mariners".

[fstuff1]

from a facebook page:

 

They are all carnival ships.

Carnival Fantasy (built in 1990), Ecstasy (1991), Sensation (1993), Fascination (1994), Imagination (1995), Inspiration (1996), Elation (1998) and Paradise (1998).

 

8 ships now?

 

and again, since they are so old, arent they paid off?

[fstuff1]

2 hours ago, UPNYGuy said:

 Crosswinds can be an issue for non pod driven ships.

Norwegian Epic has terrible issues docking due to crosswinds and currents (one of the reasons it was pulled from NYC). 
 

 

anyone know much much $ NCL paid to puerto rico for the Epic crashing into and SINKING one of their docking platforms  at the dock?

[ULCajunCruiser]

7 minutes ago, fstuff1 said:

from a facebook page:

 

They are all carnival ships.

Carnival Fantasy (built in 1990), Ecstasy (1991), Sensation (1993), Fascination (1994), Imagination (1995), Inspiration (1996), Elation (1998) and Paradise (1998).

 

8 ships now?

 

and again, since they are so old, arent they paid off?

WOW!!   That's the entire Fantasy class!

[ddavis5us]

People indicated Fantasy first.  Understand that on age.  But for ports like Tampa and Baltimore, only certain class ships fit under the bridge.  Anything relative to Mobile, Jkvl and Charleston where many Fantasy ships are ported that would require ships of a certain size?

[toad455]

I think at the worst, four of the Fantasy-class ships will be gone. The Spirit-class ships seem to be very valuable to Carnival. Makes me wonder if CCL had built one or two more. One will always sail out of Baltimore, one out of Tampa and one in Australia. The fourth always seems to be in Los Angeles(Long Beach) or doing Alaska/Hawaii cruises.

[UPNYGuy]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Sorry, that's a problem with training, not equipment.  Twin screw ship with Becker high-lift rudders and stern thrusters can maneuver as well as azipod equipped ships.  And, Carnival Horizon (azipods) hit the pier in NYC as well.

 

Where in the world did you get the idea that propulsion power is equivalent to passenger capacity.  Power is not even proportional to gross tonnage.  Propulsive power is proportional to displacement, and I don't have data on the displacement of each ship, so there is no comparison basis.  Power also depends on waterline length, the longer the ship the higher the speed that is capable with rated power.

I know that pax capacity has nothing to do with propulsive power. Obviously Meraviglia is a larger ship.

 

and the info I posted about Epic came directly from Kevin Sheehan when I was sailing on Breakaway multiple times per year. I asked him why epic was pulled out and one of the reasons was issues with the stern in the current. But Breakaway frequently required a tug, so...

Edited June 19, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[UPNYGuy]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Plumbers, electricians, and the painters you see around the ship are "trained mariners".

exactly. I was referring to mariners vs housekeeping. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by UPNYGuy

[CorbinCatFan]

Most of the Fantasy class ships have been up for sale for sometime.  I was expecting the Fantasy not to be around much longer and booked a November cruise on her.  My first cruise was on her and I've cruised three times on her and was hoping for one more before she left CCL.

 

I really think that the November cruise will be cancelled.  I hope they announce before I make my final payment.