Mask or No Mask

[jetsfan58]

19 minutes ago, buckeyefrank said:

apples to oranges comparison that makes no sense.  The NBA (and NHL) bubbles are for several months.  After a period of quarantine they won't be able to contract the virus because they aren't coming in contact with anyone from the outside.  A cruise is only for 7 days and the virus can be incubating that entire period.  And then new people can come into a room that was infected from a prior cruise. 

Definitely a case of apples to apples. Let me further explain. The sample size of any experiment doesn't matter as the results are still dictated by the final outcome. If I test 100 individuals (NBA) and 25 are shown positive then 25% of my sample group is positive. If I test 3000 individuals (Cruise passengers and crew) and 750 test positive then again 25% of my subjects are positive. Doesn't matter who came in contact with whom it matters that they are were confined in a non invasive "Bubble" environment thus favorably lessening the effect of any outside contamination. The outbreak could certainly occur during the second day of the cruise as it could have also happened on the second day of the current NBA environment (thankfully it has not).   

 

My point is that if you disallow passengers and crew from exiting the vessel, then you also increase the "containment" factor.   

[buckeyefrank]

6 minutes ago, jetsfan58 said:

Definitely a case of apples to apples. Let me further explain. The sample size of any experiment doesn't matter as the results are still dictated by the final outcome. If I test 100 individuals (NBA) and 25 are shown positive then 25% of my sample group is positive. If I test 3000 individuals (Cruise passengers and crew) and 750 test positive then again 25% of my subjects are positive. Doesn't matter who came in contact with whom it matters that they are were confined in a non invasive "Bubble" environment thus favorably lessening the effect of any outside contamination. The outbreak could certainly occur during the second day of the cruise as it could have also happened on the second day of the current NBA environment (thankfully it has not).   

 

My point is that if you disallow passengers and crew from exiting the vessel, then you also increase the "containment" factor.   

My point is your are allowing the passengers to exit the vessel every 5 - 7 days and bring new ones on.  Totally different than the NBA bubble.  The last major cruise outbreak was caused by a passenger the cruise prior to the large breakout.

[Keksie]

2 minutes ago, jetsfan58 said:

 

My point is that if you disallow passengers and crew from exiting the vessel, then you also increase the "containment" factor.   

You also decrease the "fun" factor and why would anyone want to pay for that when there are so many options on land for a lot of the same activities you can have on a cruise?  A main reason we have cruised is to unpack once and see several different places.

[buckeyefrank]

On 9/6/2020 at 1:58 PM, latserrof said:

Or not.  There's too many differences between (1) a patient in an operating room with several medical personnel pre-2015 (the study's date) and (2) a worldwide pandemic in 2020, to jump to that surmise.

 

BTW, that Journal study  was not a clinical study at all but an academic study of other literature (including even a study of studies) .

 

And even within its limited and disparate scope, the Journal study said "It is clear that more studies are required before any absolute conclusions can be drawn regarding the effectiveness or, indeed, ineffectiveness of surgical masks.

And "It is important not to construe an absence of evidence for effectiveness with evidence for the absence of effectiveness. While there is a lack of evidence supporting the effectiveness of facemasks, there is similarly a lack of evidence supporting their ineffectiveness."

 

Some study, huh?  But there's not much ammo there for the anti-mask types.

 

You just also confirmed there's not much ammo for the "maskers" either.

[buckeyefrank]

On 9/5/2020 at 1:43 PM, BlerkOne said:

 

Still waiting for Sweden to prove that it is possible. So far they have failed. Most of the world has travel restrictions Americans. So far we have, too.

https://www.google.com/search?q=current+sweden+covid+stats&rlz=1C1EJFC_enUS854US854&oq=current+sweden+&aqs=chrome.2.0j69i57j0l6.4526j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Doesn't look like a fail to me

[glrounds]

19 minutes ago, buckeyefrank said:

You mean like the flu vaccine does?  the vaccine will do nothing but make a select few people rich.

 

And, of course, you'll post the statistical analysis that has brought you to this conclusion.

 

The common flu is constantly evolving (mutating), so frequently a new and different vaccine is provided for us. I get them every year when they're recommended. so far so good.

[buckeyefrank]

14 minutes ago, glrounds said:

 

And, of course, you'll post the statistical analysis that has brought you to this conclusion.

 

The common flu is constantly evolving (mutating), so frequently a new and different vaccine is provided for us. I get them every year when they're recommended. so far so good.

My point is that the people looking for the vaccine to "cure" everything are going to be waiting a really long time.  The flu vaccine that's been around forever still isn't very effective.  We certainly can't expect a brand new vaccine to be completely effective against a brand new virus.

[jetsfan58]

23 minutes ago, buckeyefrank said:

My point is your are allowing the passengers to exit the vessel every 5 - 7 days and bring new ones on.  Totally different than the NBA bubble.  The last major cruise outbreak was caused by a passenger the cruise prior to the large breakout.

In that case the individuals that are delivering the players and staff "prepared meals" could cross contaminate the entire league? That hasn't happened as of yet. I am sure that the same individual(s) is/are not delivering meals each day. They would have to alternate staff as people rotate days of work. The same as your (bring new ones on) analogy above. Let's pray that effective sanitizing methods are being implemented in the cabins between passenger on-boarding and offloading.   

[jetsfan58]

36 minutes ago, Keksie said:

You also decrease the "fun" factor and why would anyone want to pay for that when there are so many options on land for a lot of the same activities you can have on a cruise?  A main reason we have cruised is to unpack once and see several different places.

I personally don't cruise for a noted and/or specified "fun factor". We are just usually "elated" to be with family and able fellowship and to relax. 

[jfunk138]

I think the issue of masks could use a good dose of "honesty".  Quoting one of the studies "supporting" masks:  "Cloth masks may provide marginal protection against the spread of Covid-19".  Note the words "may" and "marginal".  Even the folks that strongly advocate their use (Fauci, Birx, etc) admit that they are "the last line of defense" in a series of guidelines where the most important guideline is:

 

"Stay home if you can"

 

If it's not safe to do non-essential activities WITHOUT a mask, it's not safe to do non-essential activities WITH a mask.  

 

If cruising is not safe WITHOUT a mask, we really should not even be talking about cruising WITH a mask and be honest that it's really not safe in the first place.

 

[Keksie]

1 hour ago, jetsfan58 said:

I personally don't cruise for a noted and/or specified "fun factor". We are just usually "elated" to be with family and able fellowship and to relax. 

Everyone has a different reason for cruising.  I can be with my family and relax without paying for a cruise.  Hopefully we will each be able to enjoy a cruise our own way soon.

[jetsfan58]

15 minutes ago, Keksie said:

Everyone has a different reason for cruising.  I can be with my family and relax without paying for a cruise.  Hopefully we will each be able to enjoy a cruise our own way soon.

Thankfully I have never praised the overrated "value" of our monetary currency. My family members all have "fun" during our family cruise adventures. We just enjoy ourselves in a more "traditional" way with time spent together as our primary theme. I was taught to praise God and he would provide all the happiness we need. So far those teaching's have been accurate. The money that we spend to cruise will never outweigh the family unit's togetherness and happiness during our voyages.    

[Wannacruise81]

[ProgRockCruiser]

20 hours ago, buckeyefrank said:

You mean like the flu vaccine does?  the vaccine will do nothing but make a select few people rich.

I'm hoping more like the small pox or polio vaccines.

 

You know, the ones wiped out the diseases from the general population thanks to massive herd immunity from those very vaccines?

[glrounds]

2 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

I'm hoping more like the small pox or polio vaccines.

 

You know, the ones wiped out the diseases from the general population thanks to massive herd immunity from those very vaccines?

 

That was exactly my point many posts ago when it was challenged with the idea that only 50% efficacy is going to rule the day. Of course, the first one may not be that ALL INCLUSIVE a vaccine, but eventually vaccines will create ARTIFICIAL HERD IMMUNITY as the polio and small pox vaccines did.

 

Of course, waiting for that particular "time", many will go ahead with the masks, social distancing, restrictions to mixing with the locals, etc. It's just not for me. With my cruising history spread over 4 decades, I'll be just fine with memories as I wait for that efficacious vaccine. At 81 maybe time and even COVID19 will beat me to that day. We'll see.  🙂

[monykalyn]

On 9/10/2020 at 2:14 PM, buckeyefrank said:

The CDC originally said to NOT wear masks because they did nothing to prevent the spread.   Until the powers that be, actually become transparent and tell the TRUTH, I will side with the constitution which tells me I am in the land of the free.

There’s a study that looks at a countries handling of Covid and how the message to contain was implemented. The countries that were clear, honest- even saying we don’t know X yet- and implied it’s citizens to do the right thing (without shaming or virtue signaling) did better. Even when the leaders admitted mistakes were made and had to change things. 
There is also a study by Dr Monica Gandhi coming out with the theory masks are NOT stopping the spread, but they ARE reducing viral load to low levels- allowing the individual to amount an immune response without becoming sick-thereby helping with community wide immunity. It’s why case numbers may be rising in some places or we are still finding huge numbers but hospitalizations and death rates are declining (good things here). We have been at or below excessive average deaths since August 23. 

Herd immunity CAN be achieved through multiple modes (have no idea why people think herd immunity is bad if achieved through contact with virus- this will happen and is happening whether you want it to or not). We’ve also got to get more studies done with testing of Tcell and B-cell reactions for immunity not just antibodies. The few smaller areas that have done this have shown immunity far wider than just antibody tests have shown.
 

All that to say- temporary wearing of masks for six more months, somewhat effective vaccine in six months and this will be behind us hopefully (hope no one is actually thinking that a vaccine will be ready and available for the masses in November!)

 

Personally I don’t want to cruise until masks are gone, and I think they will be someday- hoping within a year. We are all compliant with wearing them when needed but doesn’t mean we have to like it or spend money to do so on vacation 🙂. 

[BroadwayGirl]

The CDC originally said a lot of things but as with all new sciences things, information evolves. 
 

I was reading something similar about viral load dose and how they believe that has to do with the severity of infection.  The previous poster is right that they are trying to study a correlation between masks and reduction of viral load getting into someone’s system leading to less severe cases.  If the mask is stopping a good portion of the viral load and getting better outcomes When people do become infected, that’s good news. 

[BlerkOne]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:50 AM, ProgRockCruiser said:

I'm hoping more like the small pox or polio vaccines.

 

You know, the ones wiped out the diseases from the general population thanks to massive herd immunity from those very vaccines?

 

Both of those are well over 90% effective with immunity that lasts a long time. The older polio vaccine was less effective than the new, and the really older vaccine had some nasty side effects possible.

 

The current polio vaccine was release decades after the initial vaccine was created. It is a lengthy process to get to a vaccine that is both effective and safe. Right now science is still in sponge mode learning about the virus and it will take years to really understand, and forever to completely understand. Any covid vaccine will also evolve over years.

[BlerkOne]

For every study, you can likely find one or more studies that contradict. Universal wearing of masks saves lives. of course they have to be of suitable material and worn properly. Some materials are more effective than others, and if worn around your ankles, as with pants, are ineffective.

[BlerkOne]

On 9/11/2020 at 1:29 PM, glrounds said:

 

That was exactly my point many posts ago when it was challenged with the idea that only 50% efficacy is going to rule the day. Of course, the first one may not be that ALL INCLUSIVE a vaccine, but eventually vaccines will create ARTIFICIAL HERD IMMUNITY as the polio and small pox vaccines did.

 

🙂

Artificial herd immunity hasn't been achieved with flu vaccines, which I think will be more the case with any C19 vaccine. Unlike polio and small pox, it is not thought that a C19 vaccine will provide long term immunity. But after a few decades of evolution, who knows? It will certainly take science to get us there.

[BlerkOne]

Just now, coevan said:

 

 

No, because it is absurd. anyone pay for their flu shot, we have not

as long as you have insurance. But the cost is cheap enough even without.

[coevan]

The only mask shortage are N 95, standard paper and cloth are plentiful

[hard_eight]

18 hours ago, coevan said:

 

 

No, because it is absurd. anyone pay for their flu shot, we have not

Your insurance has.

[glrounds]

21 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Artificial herd immunity hasn't been achieved with flu vaccines, which I think will be more the case with any C19 vaccine. Unlike polio and small pox, it is not thought that a C19 vaccine will provide long term immunity. But after a few decades of evolution, who knows? It will certainly take science to get us there.

 

I quite agree. And it's science that is providing the
"artificial" of herd immunity. May take like the 2nd shot I got a few days ago for the current strain of the common flu, although the shot I also got for pneumonia was a one time and I'm good. Who knows ? by the time we whip Covid19 . . . it may have morphed into Covid20 and the game will start all over again. Nature does this every day on our planet. Biologists call it "thinning the herd", where the weakest are pulled out of the herd to make it stronger to compete with other species.

Edited September 21, 2020 by glrounds

[jetsfan58]

Since we are on this current and somewhat controversial topic let me throw this out to the Carnival family. I am reading and viewing where many Americans just refuse to wear these protective masks; no matter what the circumstances. It doesn't matter if an establishment has written in bold lettering "Mask Are Mandatory" some individuals just won't comply.

 

Do you think that those same "rebellious and head strong" individuals are running red lights, running stop signs and are parking in no parking zones? I would guess Probably Not. If they are just out-rightly against the legal "rules of engagement" then hopefully the Police Officers will have a heart the day they are caught violating these norms.