Advice will pretty much be obsolete when we sail again

[navybankerteacher]

On 11/15/2020 at 9:01 PM, Hlitner said:

A few years ago I posted what I thought to be a humorous post about how I am "queue adverse."  And it is true that I work at avoiding lines and have a fair amount of amusing anecdotal stories about folks who seem to seek out being crammed in lines.  Just consider a ship that still has a fixed dining MDR (such as most Princess ships) and you will often find a queue 15-20 minutes long...

After "mall anxiety", "queue aversion"  (being "queue adverse" is the unavoidable corollary to "queue aversion")  is my primary age-related condition.   If I needed to define Purgatory, I believe it would be finding myself standing in an endless line waiting to get into a movie theatre in a shopping mall - probably showing something like "Gidget Goes Crazy".

[NIATPAC29]

On 11/14/2020 at 1:05 PM, Hlitner said:

I think the OP makes a great point.  COVID will cause permanent changes to the entire travel/tourist/cruise world.  Think how 9/11 changed travel.  Well COVID will likely have a greater impact.  I no longer feel confident in dispensing cruise advice when folks ask me questions about cruise lines, ships, itineraries, etc.  Much that we know will be changed.  What we experience on future cruises will likely be so different that many of us will talk about the "good ole days" as something far in the past.  Many of us who have cruised for a long time (especially on longer cruises) have been aware of the increased health risks on cruises.  Not only did we need to be cognizant of Norovirus, but there were also plenty of problems with the flu and URIs (so-called cabin cough) plus the usual assortments of common colds.  DW and I got so fed-up with catching things on cruises (primarily URIs) that we started making our own mitigation adjustments over 5 years ago such as trying to avoid elevators in favor of using the steps, keeping our distance from folks that appeared to be ill (avoid coughers) etc.  We actually had a lot of success with our basic mitigation measures without sacrificing any of the pleasures of cruising.  But now, these kind of mitigation measures will likely become institutionalized.  I have no clue how cruise ships will deal with the elevator problems (an elevator is a closed chamber where any kind of distancing is impossible).   Even flying long distances has lost so much of its charm.  We have always enjoyed international business class but many of the perks of that kind of travel are now gone (we suspect much of that will eventually come back).

 

When the OP talks about writing a travel book/guide I think much of what was previously good is now going to be obsolete.  I have long recommended the Rick Steves guide books which has lots of terrific advice for we independent travelers.  But now, Mr Steves will likely need to modify all of his books with advice on crowd avoidance and other mitigation suggestions.   So, instead of going to Pompeii on a busy day one might be better advised to go to less crowded Herculanium.  or....When choosing an outdoor cafe in the Piazza Navona (a favorite hangout of ours) the recommendations might be guided by the cafes that have the most space between tables.  Argh!

 

Hank

1 BIG mistake.temp changes ,they will not be permanent

[clo]

1 minute ago, NIATPAC29 said:

1 BIG mistake.temp changes ,they will not be permanent

Post-9/11 has caused permanent changes. Why not post-COVID.

[Hlitner]

43 minutes ago, NIATPAC29 said:

1 BIG mistake.temp changes ,they will not be permanent

Perhaps I am more cynical because I have noticed a tendency of temporary changes to become permanent changes...be it with the government, cruise lines, airlines, etc.  I do think that wearing masks will be temporary (at least with some folks) as will social distancing.  But I still remember going to the airport as a kid and standing on the tarmac as my father gave me a hug and then walked up the steps.  I also remember going to the airport (as an adult) about a half hour before my flight and not being concerned about carrying a can of Coke or having liquids in my carry-on.  As to cruise ships I remember my cruises in the 70s (primarily on RCCL, NCL and Sitmar) and being served by waiters in white gloves who brought our entrees and then served all the sides out of large silver bowls/platters.  And flaming desserts were also pretty common in those days as was tableside cooking by the Maitre d's (they still do this in MSC's Yacht Club).

 

I do believe that COVID will change cruises..and not for the better.  The lines will use the opportunity to vastly limit (and even eliminate) buffets and the easy availability of food.   There will also be more of an effort (if that is possible) to coerce cruisers into booking ridiculously priced overcrowded cruise line excursions.   I an also see the cruise lines taking advantage of COVID to require paid reservations for shows which will have limited seating.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

Just now, Hlitner said:

Perhaps I am more cynical because I have noticed a tendency of temporary changes to become permanent changes...be it with the government, cruise lines, airlines, etc.  I do think that wearing masks will be temporary (at least with some folks) as will social distancing.  But I still remember going to the airport as a kid and standing on the tarmac as my father gave me a hug and then walked up the steps.  I also remember going to the airport (as an adult) about a half hour before my flight and not being concerned about carrying a can of Coke or having liquids in my carry-on.  As to cruise ships I remember my cruises in the 70s (primarily on RCCL, NCL and Sitmar) and being served by waiters in white gloves who brought our entrees and then served all the sides out of large silver bowls/platters.  And flaming desserts were also pretty common in those days as was tableside cooking by the Maitre d's (they still do this in MSC's Yacht Club).

 

I do believe that COVID will change cruises..and not for the better.  The lines will use the opportunity to vastly limit (and even eliminate) buffets and the easy availability of food.   There will also be more of an effort (if that is possible) to coerce cruisers into booking ridiculously priced overcrowded cruise line excursions.   I an also see the cruise lines taking advantage of COVID to require paid reservations for shows which will have limited seating.   Another trend is to reduce cabin service just like many hotels have reduced maid service.  Twice a day service from your steward will likely be once a day service (to better protect you from somebody coming into your cabin).  

 

Hank

 

[NIATPAC29]

51 minutes ago, clo said:

Post-9/11 has caused permanent changes. Why not post-COVID.

apples to oranges

[Aquahound]

25 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I do believe that COVID will change cruises..and not for the better.  The lines will use the opportunity to vastly limit (and even eliminate) buffets and the easy availability of food.   There will also be more of an effort (if that is possible) to coerce cruisers into booking ridiculously priced overcrowded cruise line excursions.   I an also see the cruise lines taking advantage of COVID to require paid reservations for shows which will have limited seating.

 

I'm with you on this one.  I believe there will be permanent changes as a result of COVID.  Masks will be temporary but I think self-serve buffets are done.  No biggie; most already have protocol to switch to served during noro outbreaks anyways and some lines, like HAL, are already served.  I also think...and hope...the mega ships will be forced to maintain a minimum space to passenger ratio.  40 seems like a good number.  

[neverbeenhere]

According to my very scientific survey (much like all cruise critic science) masks are here to stay during the winter influenza season.  In the future, 64.5% of people plan to wear a mask in the winter when in crowds. 22.88% plan to wear them in any crowded situation. 

[clo]

1 hour ago, NIATPAC29 said:

apples to oranges

How so?

[Hlitner]

57 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

I'm with you on this one.  I believe there will be permanent changes as a result of COVID.  Masks will be temporary but I think self-serve buffets are done.  No biggie; most already have protocol to switch to served during noro outbreaks anyways and some lines, like HAL, are already served.  I also think...and hope...the mega ships will be forced to maintain a minimum space to passenger ratio.  40 seems like a good number.  

There is even a bigger permanent issue ignored by many on CC.  You could look in the Key West blog (under ports) to catch up.  The Key West voters, on November 3, voted to ban large cruise ships and cap total cruise passengers to no more then 1500 a day.  There were 3 separate referendums and they all easily passed.  Bottom line is that over 60% of Key West voters want to be rid of large cruise ships and lots cruise passengers.  While KW is not exactly an important port, their issue is spreading around the country (and likely the world along with the Venice ban) and will change everything.  It is already reported that some small Alaskan ports are looking at what has happened in KW and I suspect this will also spread to some of the small Canada/NE ports.    I posted a link (on the Key West blog) today about some background of this KW ban and it was really boosted by the COVID issue.  But COVID was a small part of the issue.  There are likely many smaller communities that see cruise ships (and their passengers) as a big negative.  Will places like Sitga, Ketchikan, Prince Edward Island, etc. also try to limit or eliminate cruise ships?   The Mega ships have turned many locals against the cruise industry and the backlash has no been invigorated by COVID.

 

Hank

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

There is even a bigger permanent issue ignored by many on CC.  You could look in the Key West blog (under ports) to catch up.

 

Oh yeah, I'm very familiar. The Lower Keys is my hometown, so I've been following that story with great interest.  While I'm obviously a cruise champion, I'm also well aware as a local of the negative impact cruise ships have on the small city.    

[Hlitner]

11 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

Oh yeah, I'm very familiar. The Lower Keys is my hometown, so I've been following that story with great interest.  While I'm obviously a cruise champion, I'm also well aware as a local of the negative impact cruise ships have on the small city.    

I am jealous of where you live.  We absolutely love the Lower Keys (will be there again in a couple of weeks).  Great scenery. excellent food, and wonderful people :).

 

Hank

[ilikeanswers]

13 hours ago, Hlitner said:

There is even a bigger permanent issue ignored by many on CC.  You could look in the Key West blog (under ports) to catch up.  The Key West voters, on November 3, voted to ban large cruise ships and cap total cruise passengers to no more then 1500 a day.  There were 3 separate referendums and they all easily passed.  Bottom line is that over 60% of Key West voters want to be rid of large cruise ships and lots cruise passengers.  While KW is not exactly an important port, their issue is spreading around the country (and likely the world along with the Venice ban) and will change everything.  It is already reported that some small Alaskan ports are looking at what has happened in KW and I suspect this will also spread to some of the small Canada/NE ports.    I posted a link (on the Key West blog) today about some background of this KW ban and it was really boosted by the COVID issue.  But COVID was a small part of the issue.  There are likely many smaller communities that see cruise ships (and their passengers) as a big negative.  Will places like Sitga, Ketchikan, Prince Edward Island, etc. also try to limit or eliminate cruise ships?   The Mega ships have turned many locals against the cruise industry and the backlash has no been invigorated by COVID.

 

Hank

 

It is not just cruises but mass market tourism in general. It seems the Covid pause has been an opportunity for destinations to rethink their relationship to tourism. The Caribbean Islands have started looking at cost of tourism vs the money it brings in and so far they are finding it is not as great value as they thought. Amsterdam a lot of locals have claimed they got their city back. Even little New Zealand recently announced they want to reassess their tourism industry to make sure it is bringing more benefits than problems. It wouldn't surprise me if there are destinations who decide business as usual is no longer acceptable. 

[Hlitner]

4 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

It is not just cruises but mass market tourism in general. It seems the Covid pause has been an opportunity for destinations to rethink their relationship to tourism. The Caribbean Islands have started looking at cost of tourism vs the money it brings in and so far they are finding it is not as great value as they thought. Amsterdam a lot of locals have claimed they got their city back. Even little New Zealand recently announced they want to reassess their tourism industry to make sure it is bringing more benefits than problems. It wouldn't surprise me if there are destinations who decide business as usual is no longer acceptable. 

I cannot help but think of the Saul Alinsky philosophy of never letting a crisis go to waste.  The "over tourism" issue had become a hot item before COVID.  But with COVID there is an opportunity to deal with overtourism by simply extending restrictions that have been put in place for COVID.  The cruise industry has been their own worst enemy with multiple environmental violations, mega ships turning small towns into traffic nightmares, etc.  I have predicted (in another post) that none of this will be lost on the smaller Alaskan ports (i.e. Sitka, Ketchikan, etc) who will look at what is happening in Key West and consider cruise ship restrictions in their own towns.   COVID is a true PR nightmare for the cruise industry and they might want to consider hiring a big time PR Firm to further promote their industry.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

On 11/20/2020 at 9:54 AM, ilikeanswers said:

 

It is not just cruises but mass market tourism in general. It seems the Covid pause has been an opportunity for destinations to rethink their relationship to tourism. 

 

On 11/20/2020 at 10:05 AM, Hlitner said:

The "over tourism" issue had become a hot item before COVID.  But with COVID there is an opportunity to deal with overtourism by simply extending restrictions that have been put in place for COVID.  The cruise industry has been their own worst enemy with multiple environmental violations, mega ships turning small towns into traffic nightmares, etc. 

 

Here on CC we of course hear from many people who are over-anxious to get back to cruising. But I wonder, in terms of the general public and the fear that has been generated due to the pandemic, whether tourism numbers won't remain depressed for a while even following availability of a vaccine and better control in most countries occurs.  I remember the lower number after 9/11 -- for quite a while at least Americans were spooked about flying and there were fewer tourists traveling, especially outside the US.  That would be wonderful to contemplate when I prepare to start traveling again.

 

As to cruising specifically, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. 

[Hlitner]

8 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

Here on CC we of course hear from many people who are over-anxious to get back to cruising. But I wonder, in terms of the general public and the fear that has been generated due to the pandemic, whether tourism numbers won't remain depressed for a while even following availability of a vaccine and better control in most countries occurs.  I remember the lower number after 9/11 -- for quite a while at least Americans were spooked about flying and there were fewer tourists traveling, especially outside the US.  That would be wonderful to contemplate when I prepare to start traveling again.

 

As to cruising specifically, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. 

I do remember that tourist downturn after 9/11 with a large group afraid to get on a plane.  I recall sitting in my office in early February 2002 (a few months after 9/11) listening to a talk radio show when they were talking about the horrible downturn in tourism.  They were interviewing a representative from the UK tourist industry who was talking about how London was devoid of tourists and really hurting.  I immediately went online and found an amazing round trip fare on British Air (from Newark) and a great London hotel for less then half price.  Within minutes I booked the air and hotel and that night at dinner I told DW that I was taking her to London for the weekend :).  London was indeed empty, we were able to get 2 fers for any show at Leister Square, and it was one of the most romantic trips of our lives.   Our flights on BA were not even half full.

 

DW and I will do the same during COVID.  We are soon off to a short trip to Key West where social distancing will not be a big problem (we know the town well).  This winter we will again be living in Mexico just like every other winter.  Next Spring (when cruises will still not be common) we will likely fly to Europe for 1-2 months assuming that the EU is open for we Americans.  If not we will likely take a 1-2 months driving trip in our own country (and possibly Canada if they open their doors).  I do believe that even with COVID it is possible to travel with minimal risk....if one takes common sense precautions.  With some luck, by next Spring we will be able to get a vaccination which will further reduce the COVID risk.

 

How to travel during COVID?  For a single person or couple it means staying away from other folks and groups.  Plenty of restaurants do a great job with social distancing and in Key West this can be further enhanced by dining outdoors.  While it is possible to still be entertained at a bar or nightclub one should certainly avoid any place where folks are crowded together or not following mask protocols.   I think the biggest problem is dealing with airports but even this can be mitigated if one uses lots of caution and tries to avoid crowded queues and crowds.   None of this is a guarantee of no COVID, but it sure puts the odds in one's favor.  

 

Hank

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

I do remember that tourist downturn after 9/11 with a large group afraid to get on a plane.  I recall sitting in my office in early February 2002 (a few months after 9/11) listening to a talk radio show when they were talking about the horrible downturn in tourism.  They were interviewing a representative from the UK tourist industry who was talking about how London was devoid of tourists and really hurting.  I immediately went online and found an amazing round trip fare on British Air (from Newark) and a great London hotel for less then half price.  Within minutes I booked the air and hotel and that night at dinner I told DW that I was taking her to London for the weekend :).  London was indeed empty, we were able to get 2 fers for any show at Leister Square, and it was one of the most romantic trips of our lives.   Our flights on BA were not even half full.

 

 

I remember that time fondly as it remains to this day the only period when I was (twice) upgraded to REAL first class on two separate trans-Atlantic flights. One of those was to Turkey, which I fell in love with. Given the tourism down-turn and the fact that not many Americans were yet traveling to Turkey, it was wonderfully uncrowded. I remember being at Ephesus and looking down the road toward the library -- I have a photo that is completely empty of other tourists.

 

The other was to Paris, where for the first time I bought a Rick Steves guide and used it with good effect. 

 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

Here on CC we of course hear from many people who are over-anxious to get back to cruising. But I wonder, in terms of the general public and the fear that has been generated due to the pandemic, whether tourism numbers won't remain depressed for a while even following availability of a vaccine and better control in most countries occurs.  I remember the lower number after 9/11 -- for quite a while at least Americans were spooked about flying and there were fewer tourists traveling, especially outside the US.  That would be wonderful to contemplate when I prepare to start traveling again.

 

As to cruising specifically, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. 

It was not that long after 9/11 that I suggested to my DW that we go on a cruise the following summer to celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary. I suggested Bermuda as we could drive to or take the bus to the port of NY. We somehow ended up flying to Barcelona instead and did a Western Mediterranean cruise. The cruise line, Royal Caribbean, gave everyone who was taking their transfer bus a free tour of Barcelona. At no later time when we have cruised and the travel industry was not in such a bad place, have we ever experienced anything like that.

 

And yes, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[clo]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

And yes, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Post-911 we were booked on a Southern Caribbean cruise (our first) for January IIRC). Two or so months prior the travel agent called and said that people were suddenly clamoring to cruise. If we would/could push our trip out by a few weeks they would give us two B2B 10 day cruise with no repeat of ports except St. Thomas and an upgraded cabin. Worked for us 🙂

[Aquahound]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:12 AM, Markanddonna said:

 I, of course, have put it on hold but keep thinking about how much the wonderful advice here on Cruise Critic just won't be true/accurate anymore once we are all back out there.

 

Speaking of Cruise Critic advice and opinions, it's really interesting to go back and read early threads on this subject.  I find this one particularly interesting...

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/topic/2735011-don’t-go-on-a-cruise/

[clo]

44 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Speaking of Cruise Critic advice and opinions, it's really interesting to go back and read early threads on this subject.  I find this one particularly interesting...

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk/topic/2735011-don’t-go-on-a-cruise/

Thanks for that. I remember postings from maybe June where people were still saying "I'd sail tomorrow...." 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Thanks for that. I remember postings from maybe June where people were still saying "I'd sail tomorrow...." 

And the only reason they could not cruise was the CDC had it in for the cruise industry.

[clo]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

And the only reason they could not cruise was the CDC had it in for the cruise industry.

When did other countries start closing their borders?

[ontheweb]

3 minutes ago, clo said:

When did other countries start closing their borders?

Not sure, but I do know we had a Norwegian fjord cruise for July that we cancelled in early April. IIRC, I noticed sometime in March, probably late March, that Norway had closed down a few of the ports that were supposed to be on our cruise.

[clo]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

Not sure, but I do know we had a Norwegian fjord cruise for July that we cancelled in early April. IIRC, I noticed sometime in March, probably late March, that Norway had closed down a few of the ports that were supposed to be on our cruise.

Oh right. We were going to do a Norwegian coastal in early April IIRC and they closed the country down. That was a doozy cause that cruise was just one part of a trip that had 16 different components, i.e., tickets to events, flights, hotels, trains, you name it. It was a royal pain to then take it apart piece by piece.