Will vaccines now be required?

[nomad098]

9 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

nomad098 is very correct at this point.  Many here are presuming that vaccination will be required to travel or board a cruise ship.  Although we tend to think so, there is absolutely nothing definitive right now except for a few companies like Quantas Airlines who said vaccination proof will be required to board their flights.

 

Qantas boss Alan Joyce would like to introduce a vaccine requirement but as he said he would need to amend T&C's first. Quantas have not actually introduced a requirement and are facing a backlash from other travel industry bodies. Even the Australian Prime minister have had to roll back on statements he made on a vaccine requirement.

 

https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/travel/2020/11/24/qantas-covid-vaccine-backlash/

 

Personally I think companies are going to need government support to move forward with a vaccine requirement 

[yorky]

4 hours ago, KnowTheScore said:

 

Utter claptrap

 

If you DO get vaccinated and get infected then you also pose a risk to those around you.

 

So in the end what matters is whether you ARE in fact infected (Covid-positive) and that is determined ONLY by testing NOT by your vaccination status.

 

Note also that ALL vaccines harm a small percentage of the world's population to some degree.

 

Those who can not get the vaccine are a small global minority.  It is neither practical, moral or ethical to go off vaccinating every individual on the planet just for the sake of protecting that tiny minority.  You end up harming a different minority at the expense of trying to protect the other minority and spend $billions in doing so.  The notion is utterly absurd.

 

Bottom line, if YOU feel you need to get vaccinated go and get vaccinated.  What everyone else does should be of no concern unless you don't actually believe in the vaccine's efficacy.

 

If you know a vaccine is only 60% effective but want it anyway then do so but don't expect the rest of the world to assess the risks the same way that you do.   There are other ways to protect one's health and many take those routes.  They include things like not drinking to excess, not smoking, not vaping, not eating junk food, not eating to the point of being obese and not taking drugs.  They include things like understanding the important of sunshine, understanding the importance of regular intake of good fresh vegetables and fruits, understanding how herbs and spices work and how they can be used to treat different ailments, understanding the different vitamins and how deficiencies of them cause problems and where to get the best source fo each of those vitamins.

 

And on top of all this, your statement also fails totally to take into account the many millions and millions of people who have now already had Covid and thereby gained natural levels of immunity including the important T-cell immunity, plus the 20%-50% of the population that already had levels of T-Cell immunity to Covid before Covid even appeared, gained from past bouts of colds, Flu and ILIs and other Coronaviruses.

 

This notion that people waving their little vaccination cards have some kind of unique nirvana invulnerability is a total nonsense.   Your vaccination will be just like a Flu vaccination.  There are already loads of Covid strains and the vaccines are going to have to be constantly tweaked to deal with them.   Even Tony BLiar just stated this on radio.    Covid is here to stay but that was frankly obvious from the get go last December.

 

The "pro-vaxxers" are going to be essentially vaccine junkies getting routinely shot up with vaccine after vaccine as each new virus or strains of existing viruses appear.   Flu vaccines, Pneumonia vaccines, Shingles vaccines, and now Covid vaccines.  

 

There is already mounting evidence that repeated Flu vaccination reduces the body's ability to fight off Flu in some cases.   I could cite source refs if needed but I sense hard fact is not palatable here.

 

I don't intend to be a vaccine junkie.   I don't believe being one would be good for my health.  I have researched the ingredients in many vaccines, their efficacy rates, the rates of adverse effects, my chances of actually getting any given virus/disease, my chances of dying from any given virus/disease and make my informed decisions accordingly.

 

 

 

 

We ask a very simple question to ourselves. Will more people die from Covid if no one gets vaccinated or if everyone that can get vaccinated does so. We both feel it’s a very simple decision.

[sydbarrett]

Not to mention the economic and mental health toll of all this! I feel it is my duty as a global citizen to get vaccinated, not for myself but for the good of others. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work but I'm going to do my part. It's not about being a vaccine junky or following blindly. I am VERY selective with vaccines. Of course each one of us would rather not take a vaccine, have everyone else get vaccinated, and we reap the benefits.

Edited December 23, 2020 by sydbarrett

[Arizona Wildcat]

The comments here have truly degenerated to utter nonsense from those opposed to vaccination and has little or nothing to do with cruising.  

 

Thus an update on vaccine availability in my city of 1M.  She is in the third group after #1- first responders/those over 80 or in some type of group facility and #2- essential workers.  It is expected my wife who has 2 health issues per the state guidelines has been told within 2 weeks of February 1st.  Group #4 for those over 65 that have no named health issues - probably late February or March.

Those dates are dependent on J&J or AZ vaccine availability in February.

 

I personally do not care if some choose against vaccination.  Hopefully they are willing to accept the consequences of their decision in possibly limiting all manner of locations they may be excluded such as travel, workplaces and places of business

[nocl]

12 hours ago, Esprit said:

It was reported on the news that those in their early sixties have a 1 in 2 million chance of dying from Covid. The exact same odds of dying from falling out of your bed!

That number a bit misleading as well as inaccurate

 

That might be the number for the entire population - infected or not infected.  Of course that number will shift as the number of infected increases so depending upon when it was calculated (do you have a reference) it would only apply to that point in time and would change as the number of infected increases.

 

Now lets assume that it is correct there have been approximately 35,000 deaths involving COVID in the range from 55-65.    The population in the age range of 55-65 in the US is 42.44 million.  Now if what you reported is correct and the odds of dying from COVID is 1 in 2 million then there should only be 21 deaths instead of 35,000.  Which would be 80 per 100,000 or 800 per million.

 

Even if was the chance of dying of COVID today the number would be low.

[morechances]

22 hours ago, nomad098 said:

People keep posting that vaccination will be a requirement and posts like that they will be "waving from the ship to the unvaccinated on the dock"

 

Have you actually got any documentary proof that this will be the case?

Has any cruise line or government body specifically stated this will happen?

 

Or is this just a personal view and something you would want the cruise lines to do but is not actually a fact.

 

Governments have not issued a vaccine requirement to travel as far as I am aware

And only personal views from company employees on the matter have been expressed not actually company policy changed and issued.

 

I have no issues with the cruise lines introducing a vaccination policy but I am enough of a realist to understand the complicated practicalities involved in such a decision.

 

What I don't understand is people posting opinion as fact.

 

Both a vaccination to travel will be needed or a vaccination will not be needed to travel are both equally true at this moment in time, until a decision is made.

There are already, and have been for many years, vaccine requirements for entry in to certain countries. 

[nomad098]

1 hour ago, morechances said:

There are already, and have been for many years, vaccine requirements for entry in to certain countries. 

 

These are government mandated vaccinations for certain diseases to enter certain countries.

 

What is being discussed is cruise companies making a covid vaccine a requirement for individual customers from all over the world to board their ships in various different countries.

 

There is no precedent for this in the travel industry, the travel industry does make recommendations for vaccinations other than the legally required vaccinations for travel to certain areas but these are not a legal requirement to book at least not in the UK and EU.

 

It is possible in the future we will see cruises in different markets around the world having different vaccination requirements for individual customers.

 

It may well be cruises out of the US require a vaccination but a compulsory covid vaccination for EU citizens to cruise in the med would bring the cruise lines into direct conflict with the fundamental principles and laws of the EU, though it may well be that US and UK citizens would require a covid vaccine to cruise the med.

 

The two biggest problem for the cruise lines I can see is legitimate and legally acceptable proof of covid vaccination for the different markets around the world that is recognised by many different governments and the second, getting enough people vaccinated around the world to make cruise holidays viable again.

 

[Arizona Wildcat]

On 12/23/2020 at 3:48 PM, sydbarrett said:

Not to mention the economic and mental health toll of all this! I feel it is my duty as a global citizen to get vaccinated, not for myself but for the good of others. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work but I'm going to do my part. It's not about being a vaccine junky or following blindly. I am VERY selective with vaccines. Of course each one of us would rather not take a vaccine, have everyone else get vaccinated, and we reap the benefits.

 

On 12/24/2020 at 7:03 AM, nomad098 said:

 

These are government mandated vaccinations for certain diseases to enter certain countries.

 

What is being discussed is cruise companies making a covid vaccine a requirement for individual customers from all over the world to board their ships in various different countries.

 

There is no precedent for this in the travel industry, the travel industry does make recommendations for vaccinations other than the legally required vaccinations for travel to certain areas but these are not a legal requirement to book at least not in the UK and EU.

 

It is possible in the future we will see cruises in different markets around the world having different vaccination requirements for individual customers.

 

It may well be cruises out of the US require a vaccination but a compulsory covid vaccination for EU citizens to cruise in the med would bring the cruise lines into direct conflict with the fundamental principles and laws of the EU, though it may well be that US and UK citizens would require a covid vaccine to cruise the med.

 

The two biggest problem for the cruise lines I can see is legitimate and legally acceptable proof of covid vaccination for the different markets around the world that is recognised by many different governments and the second, getting enough people vaccinated around the world to make cruise holidays viable again.

 

The WHO card is used for proof of vaccination.  Almost EVERY country requires proof of vaccination for yellow fever and/or malaria to visit certain countries or for citizens of those countries to visit.  Yes the cards can be faked as can ANY document.

It is not hard to see governments requiring visitors to be vaccinated for COVID.  This would obviously apply to almost every cruise should Canada require vaccination.  No different that my visiting a country with yellow fever and trying to return to the US or Canada without proof of vaccination.

Thus the airlines or cruises do not need to require as governments are likely to do it for them. 

[nomad098]

11 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

 

The WHO card is used for proof of vaccination.  Almost EVERY country requires proof of vaccination for yellow fever and/or malaria to visit certain countries or for citizens of those countries to visit.  Yes the cards can be faked as can ANY document.

It is not hard to see governments requiring visitors to be vaccinated for COVID.  This would obviously apply to almost every cruise should Canada require vaccination.  No different that my visiting a country with yellow fever and trying to return to the US or Canada without proof of vaccination.

Thus the airlines or cruises do not need to require as governments are likely to do it for them. 

 

Who dictates whether you need a ICVP card the country your travelling from or the country your travelling to, both or the WHO? There are countries where yellow fever is endemic but an ICVP is not a requirement to enter.

 

So who would decide? certainly not commercial business, when Quantas CEO put forward that the vaccination would be required, there was a big backlash from one of the biggest travel industry partners in the UK who sell thousands of seats to those choosing to travel the world and said "other better airlines would be available to their customers"

 

If the Australian government does not introduce a covid-19 policy but Quantas does and other airlines do not, the same number of people will travel to Australia but Quantas market share will reduce.

 

Market forces will decide if a vaccine requirement is profitable if governments do not step in.

 

One of the four founding principles of the EU is freedom of movement. If a cruise company issued a vaccination requirement on cruises solely sailing within the EU and an unvaccinated EU national wanted to sail the cruise company would be breaking the law and would not be allowed to sail.

The cruise lines would not have a legal leg to stand on as this is the law as it stands at the moment, the EU would have to re write it's whole ethos on the freedom of movement which quite frankly would never happen or be allowed by the EU member states. No one country can institute a vaccination to travel requirement into their country from another EU member state without agreement from the other 26 members.

 

The cruise lines in the US, Canada and UK could introduce a vaccination policy but then that only covers about 55% of the business.  

 

Governments from high income countries will not put in place something like an ICVP if it causes problems in trade, travel or international business between high income countries when a vaccine is widely available, once deaths from covid-19 are brought down to a level below that of flu, high income countries will widely ignore the disease this is one of the biggest concerns of the WHO.

 

Diarrheal diseases kill approximately 3 million people a year but because this is generally an issue for low income countries it is largely ignored by high income countries. 

 

I am not against vaccine requirement to cruise I just do not see it as easily accomplished if governments do not make the right policy decisions.

 

Fake ICVP are a big problem in low income countries and if there is a need for them in high income countries I can imagine the the problem will escalate.

 

 

 

 

 

[yorky]

All this talk but again if no one gets vaccinated we will continue to see a huge amount of people dying. Unless you believe that the vaccine will have no influence in those huge death numbers along with the associated destruction of world economies there is no debate. We either see the world start to move forward again or we don’t it really is that simple.Everything else is just an opinion on whether vaccines are good or bad for each individual person. As I’ve posted before my mother in law died of Covid and both my brother and sister in law were seriously ill in hospital with it and both are in their 50s, both still suffer, one from his respiratory system and the other with neurological issues that may last a lifetime. I doubt anything more serious that that could have happened if they had all had the vaccine.

[keesar]

On 12/23/2020 at 7:45 AM, Esprit said:

It was reported on the news that those in their early sixties have a 1 in 2 million chance of dying from Covid. The exact same odds of dying from falling out of your bed!

 

If you fall out of your bed and get sent to a hospital, the chances of dying are significantly increased, even in better times.  

[nomad098]

17 minutes ago, yorky said:

All this talk but again if no one gets vaccinated we will continue to see a huge amount of people dying. Unless you believe that the vaccine will have no influence in those huge death numbers along with the associated destruction of world economies there is no debate. We either see the world start to move forward again or we don’t it really is that simple.Everything else is just an opinion on whether vaccines are good or bad for each individual person. As I’ve posted before my mother in law died of Covid and both my brother and sister in law were seriously ill in hospital with it and both are in their 50s, both still suffer, one from his respiratory system and the other with neurological issues that may last a lifetime. I doubt anything more serious that that could have happened if they had all had the vaccine.

 

I offer my sympathies for your personal circumstances.

 

The question is not should people be vaccinated that's a personal choice we all have to make for ourselves, unless the government tries to make it mandatory then a whole new set of legal problems emerge, me personally I will be happy to have the Astrazeneca vaccine when it is available.

 

The question is will vaccines be required to cruise.

 

There are many reasons why a cruise line may make it a policy to benefit their customers and themselves.

 

There are also many other reasons legally and logistically why they may not. 

 

A lot of people on these forums believe it is a forgone conclusion that a vaccine will be required to cruise, some of us are pointing out that it is not quite that simple. 

 

 

 

 

[Tudorcruisers]

 My husband and I love cruising and are watching the posts and news regarding if a vaccine certificate will be required.  This week my elderly uncle couldn’t receive the vaccine as he has a penicillin allergy, we know many friends and relatives who have this allergy including my DH so it just seem unfair they couldn’t  cruise again due to not being able to get the vaccine.  Some very informative posts explaining that even having the vaccine people could still pass it on so having  a card to say you have been vaccinated would  mean nothing so  I don’t know what the cruise industry will decide.  

[TeeRick]

23 minutes ago, Tudorcruisers said:

 My husband and I love cruising and are watching the posts and news regarding if a vaccine certificate will be required.  This week my elderly uncle couldn’t receive the vaccine as he has a penicillin allergy, we know many friends and relatives who have this allergy including my DH so it just seem unfair they couldn’t  cruise again due to not being able to get the vaccine.  Some very informative posts explaining that even having the vaccine people could still pass it on so having  a card to say you have been vaccinated would  mean nothing so  I don’t know what the cruise industry will decide.  

I am not sure why a penicillin allergy would exclude somebody from being vaccinated at least in the US.  This will all get sorted out hopefully soon.

[morechances]

Cruise lines may not mandate vaccinations, but will still have a responsibility to make sure that ALL rules of a country where the ship docks are met, prior to boarding. 

This will mean that you may be denied boarding if you do not meet the requirements for a particular stop.

Same as airlines confirm that you have a visa for a country, if required, prior to being allowed to board a specific international flight. 

 

On the other hand, if cruise lines decide to make vaccinations mandatory for travel,  to safeguard ALL passengers, then they will. 

And you have a choice.....accept the rules, or go somewhere else for your vacation needs.

 

You are never going to make everyone happy. But the companies will have to decide on what is the best way to keep their passengers safe. 

And to keep from having to close down again. 

 

The themed entertainment industry, like Disney parks, and Universal, have mandatory mask and temperature check requirements. 

NO EXCEPTIONS!!

 

People are still going. And, those who are not complying to the requirements are being removed from the parks. Simple.

[morechances]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

 

I offer my sympathies for your personal circumstances.

 

The question is not should people be vaccinated that's a personal choice we all have to make for ourselves, unless the government tries to make it mandatory then a whole new set of legal problems emerge, me personally I will be happy to have the Astrazeneca vaccine when it is available.

 

The question is will vaccines be required to cruise.

 

There are many reasons why a cruise line may make it a policy to benefit their customers and themselves.

 

There are also many other reasons legally and logistically why they may not. 

 

A lot of people on these forums believe it is a forgone conclusion that a vaccine will be required to cruise, some of us are pointing out that it is not quite that simple. 

 

 

 

 

There are no legal reasons for not requiring vaccinations. 

Wackos may try, but it is a choice of a company to mandate them. Not...... I have a right to cruise without getting vaccinations. 

Because the other 2000 passengers also have rights. The right to be safe and protected against any risks associated with this. 

 

These are private organizations and as long as they are not breaking human rights laws, they are able to make any rules that they want. 

You, as a passenger, choose to accept or reject the rules. By boarding or not.

[nomad098]

23 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I am not sure why a penicillin allergy would exclude somebody from being vaccinated at least in the US.  This will all get sorted out hopefully soon.

MHRA: Confirmation of guidance to vaccination centres on managing allergic reactions following COVID-19 vaccination with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine 

Last updated 9 December 2020

On 8^th December 2020 the MHRA received reports that two individuals experienced an anaphylactic reaction. The individuals concerned received prompt treatment and are recovering well. The MHRA is investigating these cases and will provide further update as required.

The MHRA subsequently issued the following advice:

• Any person with a history of immediate-onset anaphylaxis to a vaccine, medicine or food should not receive the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. A second dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine should not be given to those who have experienced anaphylaxis to the first dose of Pfizer/BioNTech vaccination.

 

Different regulatory authorities are proceeding differently,

 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Tudorcruisers said:

I don’t know what the cruise industry will decide.

 

None of us do at this point. In fact, I suspect they are also weighing their options. 

 

Like some, I do think cruise lines could make vaccination mandatory if countries/ports visited require them.

 

The reasons for countries/cruise lines requiring a vaccine are not solely to prevent passing COVID to others. They also include limiting severe disease so as not to overwhelm medical facilities -- either on board ship or at ports visited, which may already be close to full capacity.  Remember: this was one of the big points of contention when Florida did not want to let the Holland America ship with COVID passengers dock there -- the critical care facilities in S Florida were already at near capacity and they were worried about a major spike due to ship passengers.

 

Another reason cruise lines may well consider proof of vaccination is for passenger confidence. While I realize there is no hard evidence to point to -- at least not yet -- I think many passengers will feel more comfortable cruising if they know other passengers are vaccinated. Just this week I received a survey from one cruise line asking for my thoughts on what would make me feel "safe" to cruise again, and requiring a COVID vaccination was one of the options on their theoretical table.

 

 

[nomad098]

19 minutes ago, morechances said:

On the other hand, if cruise lines decide to make vaccinations mandatory for travel,  to safeguard ALL passengers, then they will. 

And you have a choice.....accept the rules, or go somewhere else for your vacation needs.

 

 

I agree with the other points and more than possible for cruises outside the EU but cruises inside the EU are subject to EU law not US laws, the CDC or company policy, and EU law is quite clear when it comes to free movement of EU citizens within the EU. It may well be that EU citizens will not need to be vaccinated for EU cruises but for passengers from outside the EU they may well need to be vaccinated.

 

7 minutes ago, morechances said:

There are no legal reasons for not requiring vaccinations. 

Wackos may try, but it is a choice of a company to mandate them. Not...... I have a right to cruise without getting vaccinations. 

Because the other 2000 passengers also have rights. The right to be safe and protected against any risks associated with this. 

 

These are private organizations and as long as they are not breaking human rights laws, they are able to make any rules that they want. 

You, as a passenger, choose to accept or reject the rules. By boarding or not.

 

EU human rights laws and freedom of movement laws would have to be changed to have only vaccinated cruises within the EU.

 

On a med cruise staying within the EU it would mean only if a country in the EU makes a covid-19 vaccination requirement for entry would a cruise line be able to have a vaccine requirement. If a country did this they would be in breach of EU law in regards to free movement of EU citizens. 

 

If a cruise started in the EU and went to country outside the EU that mandated a vaccination for entry then the cruise line could have a vaccination policy. 

 

Denmark are looking at mandatory vaccinations for its citizens however it has already recognised that under EU law that non Denmark EU citizens who choose to live and work in Denmark can not be legally obliged to have the vaccine. 

 

12 EU countries have compulsory vaccination laws for it's own citizens however under EU law these cannot be enforced on other EU citizens from other countries living and working there. 

 

https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/07/will-any-countries-in-europe-make-the-covid-vaccine-compulsory

 

[Tudorcruisers]

3 hours ago, TeeRick said:

I am not sure why a penicillin allergy would exclude somebody from being vaccinated at least in the US.  This will all get sorted out hopefully soon.

I should have mentioned Teerick, we are in the U.K.  it is worrying if they aren’t giving vaccine to people with a penicillin allergy as it’s such a common one .  

[TeeRick]

2 hours ago, nomad098 said:

MHRA: Confirmation of guidance to vaccination centres on managing allergic reactions following COVID-19 vaccination with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine 

Last updated 9 December 2020

On 8^th December 2020 the MHRA received reports that two individuals experienced an anaphylactic reaction. The individuals concerned received prompt treatment and are recovering well. The MHRA is investigating these cases and will provide further update as required.

The MHRA subsequently issued the following advice:

• Any person with a history of immediate-onset anaphylaxis to a vaccine, medicine or food should not receive the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. A second dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine should not be given to those who have experienced anaphylaxis to the first dose of Pfizer/BioNTech vaccination.

 

Different regulatory authorities are proceeding differently,

 

Yes the MHRA is different than the FDA for sure.  I was just commenting (really just thinking aloud) that not all allergies are created equal even for anaphylaxis.   One might be highly allergic to say peanuts but not to penicillin or bee stings.  So a severe penicillin allergy does not necessarily mean a severe reaction to vaccine components.   So over time we will find out if some people with severe allergies to any one thing can still be vaccinated with the COVID vaccine.  Only data from millions of vaccinations will tell us all. 

[TeeRick]

Back to the topic of the thread.  There is some very good evidence just published in the New England Journal of Medicine on the protective antibodies of virus-infected health care workers in the UK lasting at least 6 months and preventing reinfection.  This has received a lot of well deserved press.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/943154?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=370300SV&impID=2758387&faf=1

 

So will evidence of protective antibodies be required or accepted instead of a vaccine proof?  We are at the point in the pandemic that there have been 18.8 million documented COVID infections in the US.  But the CDC estimates that there have been over 5 times that number.  As of September they estimated 91 million infections in the US and 77 million symptomatic infections.  A lot more now.  

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html

 

In fact for the foreseeable future as vaccines get rolled out, the people protected just by natural infection will be in much higher numbers than people protected by vaccines.  At least 6 months post infection according to NEJM article.  So how do we factor this in when requiring proof of vaccination to cruise?  What if you are previously infected with evidence of continued strong and protective antibodies?  That is likely many millions of people at this point and growing daily. 

[LGW59]

2 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Back to the topic of the thread.  There is some very good evidence just published in the New England Journal of Medicine on the protective antibodies of virus-infected health care workers in the UK lasting at least 6 months and preventing reinfection.  This has received a lot of well deserved press.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/943154?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=370300SV&impID=2758387&faf=1

 

So will evidence of protective antibodies be required or accepted instead of a vaccine proof?  We are at the point in the pandemic that there have been 18.8 million documented COVID infections in the US.  But the CDC estimates that there have been over 5 times that number.  As of September they estimated 91 million infections in the US and 77 million symptomatic infections.  A lot more now.  

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html

 

In fact for the foreseeable future as vaccines get rolled out, the people protected just by natural infection will be in much higher numbers than people protected by vaccines.  At least 6 months post infection according to NEJM article.  So how do we factor this in when requiring proof of vaccination to cruise?  What if you are previously infected with evidence of continued strong and protective antibodies?  That is likely many millions of people at this point and growing daily. 

Last time I had penicillin I was 12 years old, in the hospital with pneumonia and had a severe reaction.  Have never had it since, I hope that does not bode badly for the vaccine!

[Arizona Wildcat]

9 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Back to the topic of the thread.  There is some very good evidence just published in the New England Journal of Medicine on the protective antibodies of virus-infected health care workers in the UK lasting at least 6 months and preventing reinfection.  This has received a lot of well deserved press.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/943154?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=370300SV&impID=2758387&faf=1

 

So will evidence of protective antibodies be required or accepted instead of a vaccine proof?  We are at the point in the pandemic that there have been 18.8 million documented COVID infections in the US.  But the CDC estimates that there have been over 5 times that number.  As of September they estimated 91 million infections in the US and 77 million symptomatic infections.  A lot more now.  

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html

 

In fact for the foreseeable future as vaccines get rolled out, the people protected just by natural infection will be in much higher numbers than people protected by vaccines.  At least 6 months post infection according to NEJM article.  So how do we factor this in when requiring proof of vaccination to cruise?  What if you are previously infected with evidence of continued strong and protective antibodies?  That is likely many millions of people at this point and growing daily. 

Important that I do not think the cruiselines Or airlines will require vaccination for Covid.  Governments will require it or proof you do not have the disease.  

As for allergies like penicillin.  Google do you really have an allergy to penicillin?  Harvard University - many others as well some years ago - found 90% of those reporting were actually NOT allergic to penicillin after being tested by an allergist.  Same with shellfish like scallops.  A majority were not allergic.

Not an expert, just had family find they were not allergic to penicillin (3), ibuprofen (2), bee stings (4) and shellfish (1) after testing.  Only one person show severe allergic reaction to any of the above.

[tosteve1]

Exactly right. Just saying you are “allergic” doesn’t mean much. I hear it every day and folks usually do just fine. Having a true anaphylactic reaction is a different animal altogether.