Will vaccines now be required?

[morechances]

8 minutes ago, larry_s_taco said:

Be careful when traveling independently. I saw an article today about an 18 year old on spring brake in Grand Caymen who received  4 month prison sentence for ignoring the Covid mandates.

Ignoring the rules..... has nothing to do with traveling independently. Simply means that the person was stupid, and Ignored the local rules. They deserve it!!!!

 

But, yes, this is another example of how the rules differ from one place to the next. 

[Fouremco]

6 minutes ago, morechances said:

Ignoring the rules..... has nothing to do with traveling independently. Simply means that the person was stupid, and Ignored the local rules. They deserve it!!!!

 

But, yes, this is another example of how the rules differ from one place to the next. 

Not only do the rules differ, but the extent of the punishment when in breach of the rules. While I support the initiatives of the Cayman Islands in combatting COVID-19, the punishment in this case was overly severe IMO.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/us/college-student-prison-cayman-islands/index.html

[latserrof]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

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Posted 1 hour ago

1 hour ago, morechances said:

 

 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/us/college-student-prison-cayman-islands/index.html

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by latserrof

[latserrof]

IMO, too many people aren't taking this virus or the regulations seriously. Maybe this girl will now?

[morechances]

1 hour ago, Fouremco said:

Not only do the rules differ, but the extent of the punishment when in breach of the rules. While I support the initiatives of the Cayman Islands in combatting COVID-19, the punishment in this case was overly severe IMO.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/us/college-student-prison-cayman-islands/index.html

On the surface, it does appear extreme. 

But an extreme should deter people from doing something. 

 

The Caymans are built on 2 industries, finance and tourism. 

Covid is killing both.

 

As well, if someone spreads THE VIRUS, and it overwhelmed the few local hospitals, it would have dire consequences for everyone on the island. 

 

A $10 fine, as opposed to jail time would not have an effect. Yes, 2 extremes, but simply an example. 

 

 

[drarill]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:00 AM, TeeRick said:

I guess I wonder what the US and state governments will require for their own government employees beyond military and National Guard?  What about State Police?  What about the staff in VA hospitals facing elderly veterans on a daily basis?  Lots of questions.  But I am thinking private institutions like universities might mandate the vaccine for their on campus students.  Many already do so for vaccines like meningitis.  

Hi Rick, found this article about refusing the vaccine on the healthcare industry, really interesting and raises some good questions at the end. BTW, my husband was vaccinated two days ago and is feeling fine.  I hope to get mine soon. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/942296

[Arizona Wildcat]

On 12/18/2020 at 9:40 AM, MamaFej said:

I’ve seen a number of news stories and interviews with legal experts stating that employers in the US can require vaccines because they have an obligation to provide a safe working environment. 

I will not be at all surprised to see legal challenges, however. 

Already challenged and adjudicated in some states for private business.  Vaccination can be required if accomodation cannot be easily accomplished.  Working 100% remotely is about the only one that was accepted for measles and meningitis.  It is a low standard and the obligation is on the employee.  State and Federal employees and contractors working on site will clearly be subject to Federal rules.

For travel can be added to passports similar to other vaccinations already required for some countries.  And for those that will argue about everything - yes it is possible to fake proof of vaccinations.  Any document can be forged.

[Arizona Wildcat]

1 hour ago, drarill said:

Hi Rick, found this article about refusing the vaccine on the healthcare industry, really interesting and raises some good questions at the end. BTW, my husband was vaccinated two days ago and is feeling fine.  I hope to get mine soon. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/942296

Drarill - sadly the website requires registration. 😞

A summary would be interesting.

[TeeRick]

Thanks for the article.  I am not sure how often (at least right now with the surge) the front line HC workers will refuse to be vaccinated.  But surely that will happen and probably has already happened.  The vaccines are a life saving gift for most of us but some will not agree for whatever their reasons are.  But then that would be the expected in a free society and their will be corresponding laws and court rulings and lawsuits and mandates and protests and in general a mess.  But I will still get my vaccine even if others don't want it.  Step aside for those of us who do!

[TeeRick]

4 hours ago, drarill said:

Hi Rick, found this article about refusing the vaccine on the healthcare industry, really interesting and raises some good questions at the end. BTW, my husband was vaccinated two days ago and is feeling fine.  I hope to get mine soon. https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/942296

Glad your husband feels fine!

[drarill]

9 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Thanks for the article.  I am not sure how often (at least right now with the surge) the front line HC workers will refuse to be vaccinated.  But surely that will happen and probably has already happened.  The vaccines are a life saving gift for most of us but some will not agree for whatever their reasons are.  But then that would be the expected in a free society and their will be corresponding laws and court rulings and lawsuits and mandates and protests and in general a mess.  But I will still get my vaccine even if others don't want it.  Step aside for those of us who do!

My Facebook feed is full of pictures of doctors and other health care workers getting their vaccines.  You can't buy that kind of publicity. I have to admit that watching the first HCW vaccinated here  made me cry. Knowing that my husband is already vaccinated gives me peace.  

[cangelmd]

26 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Thanks for the article.  I am not sure how often (at least right now with the surge) the front line HC workers will refuse to be vaccinated.  But surely that will happen and probably has already happened.  The vaccines are a life saving gift for most of us but some will not agree for whatever their reasons are.  But then that would be the expected in a free society and their will be corresponding laws and court rulings and lawsuits and mandates and protests and in general a mess.  But I will still get my vaccine even if others don't want it.  Step aside for those of us who do!

I read what someone posted above about EEOC saying businesses can require the vaccine, but wonder if the fact that it is an 30EUA will make a difference on any court challenge?

[Taco’s Dad]

So as a health care worker working with COVID patients I got my first shot on Dec 18. Along with that came a CDC with line and space for another vaccine (like yellow fever) similar to what my grandfather had with MMR and other vaccines noted.  I’m all for vaccines being required.  If you don’t want one, feel free not not join me on a cruise.  If you cannot have one because you might die, then you don’t get to join me in public areas. You get to drink and eat in a room.  Yes, that’s a hard line, but I’ve had enough death, watched enough people die, lost enough young ( 50s) relatives with no underlying medical conditions (rural, normal weight, farmers who worked like horse everyday and could run laps around most city people), die. I want to enjoy my trip and like I don’t want you sharing your intestinal disease with me, you don’t get to share this.  Life’s not fair

[nocl]

8 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Not only do the rules differ, but the extent of the punishment when in breach of the rules. While I support the initiatives of the Cayman Islands in combatting COVID-19, the punishment in this case was overly severe IMO.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/us/college-student-prison-cayman-islands/index.html

Is a $1000 dollar fine for riding a bicycle into a main square a of ski village excessive? Many people might think so but the town of Whistler thinks it is appropriate.

 

Grand Cayman clearly states what the rules are for visitors, and they certainly feel that the fine is appropriate.

 

Or how about this one "Anyone who violates the mandatory quarantine could face up to $5,000 in fines or a year in Prison."  That is the potential penalty in Hawaii for doing the same thing.

 

[Fouremco]

4 minutes ago, nocl said:

Is a $1000 dollar fine for riding a bicycle into a main square a of ski village excessive? Many people might think so but the town of Whistler thinks it is appropriate.

 

Grand Cayman clearly states what the rules are for visitors, and they certainly feel that the fine is appropriate.

 

Or how about this one "Anyone who violates the mandatory quarantine could face up to $5,000 in fines or a year in Prison."  That is the potential penalty in Hawaii for doing the same thing.

 

I think that a fine for the young pre-med student would be quite acceptable, but in her case, they have sentenced her to 4 months in jail. IMO, that is excessive. 

[nocl]

Just now, Fouremco said:

I think that a fine for the young pre-med student would be quite acceptable, but in her case, they have sentenced her to 4 months in jail. IMO, that is excessive. 

Did you notice that Hawaii also includes  potential jail time up to one year.  I have read of atleast one case that has received jail time there.

 

A pre-med student should certainly be able to understand both the reason for the rules and the penalties if violated.  Certainly ignorance would not be an excuse.

 

Since she was going for a particular event (a competition involving her boy friend), one could argue that the action was pre-meditated and probably influenced the penalty.

[Charles4515]

18 minutes ago, nocl said:

Is a $1000 dollar fine for riding a bicycle into a main square a of ski village excessive? Many people might think so but the town of Whistler thinks it is appropriate.

 

Grand Cayman clearly states what the rules are for visitors, and they certainly feel that the fine is appropriate.

 

Or how about this one "Anyone who violates the mandatory quarantine could face up to $5,000 in fines or a year in Prison."  That is the potential penalty in Hawaii for doing the same thing.

 

 

From our perspective it may seem inappropriate but I can see how from the perspective of isolated islands like Cayman and Hawaii the rules must be enforced with more rigor. And when traveling to a foreign country like Cayman tourists should be rigorous in falling local laws and customs as tourists don't have the rights they have in their home country.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Charles4515

[Charles4515]

22 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

I think that a fine for the young pre-med student would be quite acceptable, but in her case, they have sentenced her to 4 months in jail. IMO, that is excessive. 

 

From our perspective but we may not know the whole story. There may be more. What we do know puts her in a bad light. However many US teenagers are spoiled. They get away with more here than in other countries.  I would be surprised if she serves 4 months. I expect the US State Department will get involved or the publicity about the sentence will bring a reduction. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Charles4515

[Fouremco]

Just now, nocl said:

Did you notice that Hawaii also includes  potential jail time up to one year.  I have read of atleast one case that has received jail time there.

 

A pre-med student should certainly be able to understand both the reason for the rules and the penalties if violated.  Certainly ignorance would not be an excuse.

 

Since she was going for a particular event (a competition involving her boy friend), one could argue that the action was pre-meditated and probably influenced the penalty.

Some people think that capital punishment is appropriate for certain crimes, but I believe that too is too severe, and the fact that some countries still allow it is no justification in my mind. So what might happen in Hawaii has no bearing on my opinion about this student's case. As I've already said, I have no issue with her being dealt with by the authorities, but IMO the sentence is too severe. You clearly have a different perspective, and that's fine.

[Fouremco]

6 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

From our perspective but we may not know the whole story. There may be more. What we do know puts her in a bad light. However many US teenagers are spoiled. They get away with more here than in other countries.  I would be surprised if she serves 4 months. I expect the US State Department will get involved or the publicity about the sentence will bring a reduction. 

The fact that she tested negative prior to flying to the island and again upon her arrival should mitigate the sentence IMO. In the recent Hawaiian case, where an adult couple face a possible 1 year sentence, they knew that they had tested positive before they boarded their flight. Huge difference.

[nocl]

2 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Some people think that capital punishment is appropriate for certain crimes, but I believe that too is too severe, and the fact that some countries still allow it is no justification in my mind. So what might happen in Hawaii has no bearing on my opinion about this student's case. As I've already said, I have no issue with her being dealt with by the authorities, but IMO the sentence is too severe. You clearly have a different perspective, and that's fine.

I certainly do think that the penalty is appropriate. 

 

When the only penalty is a fine then the decision to violate a rule is an economic one.  What is 14 days of time worth? A lot of people will say sure I will take a risk of getting caught even with a fine, because at worst the penalty is some money, and if not caught not even that.  To many that can afford to travel to the Cayman Islands a fine would be less than they are paying for their accommodations so better to enjoy the days spent there and pay the fine. 

 

In her case the trip was to see her boy friend compete.  Not even possible if quarantining as the rules required. So the cost of potentially paying a fine - no brainer.

 

When the penalty is a jail term, then it is no longer an economic question.  Plus the press about the jail time, means that a number of others just might not try the same thing.

 

 

[nocl]

2 hours ago, Charles4515 said:

 

From our perspective but we may not know the whole story. There may be more. What we do know puts her in a bad light. However many US teenagers are spoiled. They get away with more here than in other countries.  I would be surprised if she serves 4 months. I expect the US State Department will get involved or the publicity about the sentence will bring a reduction. 

Since she was traveling there is see her boy friend compete, which was clearly scheduled before the end of the quarantine period, one would expect that the decision to violate the rules was premeditated and probably one of the reasons for the harsher penalty.

[ipeeinthepool]

10 hours ago, Fouremco said:

The fact that she tested negative prior to flying to the island and again upon her arrival should mitigate the sentence IMO. 

 

I disagree.  All inbound passengers to the Cayman islands require a PCR test upon arrival.  A requirement for entering is to complete a 14 day quarantine and to agree to an electronic tether, if you want to quarantine in a private residence, to confirm you quarantine in addition to the PCR test.  She knew these requirements and intentionally violated them.  She's a spoiled kid who doesn't believe the rules apply to her.  Jail is appropriate.

Edited December 20, 2020 by ipeeinthepool

[Charles4515]

8 hours ago, nocl said:

Since she was traveling there is see her boy friend compete, which was clearly scheduled before the end of the quarantine period, one would expect that the decision to violate the rules was premeditated and probably one of the reasons for the harsher penalty.

What you say makes sense. 

[TeeRick]

Here is an article on the EEOC's position on employer's requiring COVID vaccines.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/530963-federal-agency-says-employers-can-require-workers-to-get-covid-19-vaccine