Face Masks and Cruising

[coffeebean]

On 4/18/2021 at 9:13 PM, jaspercat said:

HI I'm sorry to be so negative, but coming from a province that numbers are out getting (are) out of control and a year later still reading something like sounds "all about me" comments - won't wear a mask, mad they can't travel, won't cruise again until they can without a mask.

 If you don't want to wear a mask on a cruise, sounds like you don't wear one now. And sounds like you don't care about keeping anyone else safe. So Stay Home!

I am and have always been a strong proponent of universal masking. I have, and still do, always wear a mask in public indoor spaces, even in restaurants unless I'm seated and eating and drinking. I have never worn a mask outdoors and always keep my distance from others when I'm indoors and outdoors. I'm fully vaccinated and continue to mask as I have already mentioned.

 

Having said that, I will wait to cruise when masks are not mandated. I don't want to spend vacation money and have to mask up, so I'll wait.

[xpcdoojk]

2 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

I am and have always been a strong proponent of universal masking. I have, and still do, always wear a mask in public indoor spaces, even in restaurants unless I'm seated and eating and drinking. I have never worn a mask outdoors and always keep my distance from others when I'm indoors and outdoors. I'm fully vaccinated and continue to mask as I have already mentioned.

 

Having said that, I will wait to cruise when masks are not mandated. I don't want to spend vacation money and have to mask up, so I'll wait.

Yes, control is important, have you discussed this with a care provider.  In America we are free to choose, unless, and I missed it the constitution has been amended.  

[xpcdoojk]

3 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

 

You got to go to an actual NHL game? Darn, no such thing in Toronto. The Leafs are playing in an empty arena. Heck, our Blue Jays are playing in Dunedin, then Buffalo this season. I have no clue where the Raptor's are playing. And my Argos of the CFL (proper 3 down football for my American friends out there 😉) did not even play last year and might not play again this year.😭

 

And to add insult to injury our province just closed all the golf courses for the next six weeks. (Can you tell I'm a bigger sports nut than a cruising nut?)

 

Back to my question, did the usher really give you grief about wearing a mask? Or was it for taking it off to talk to other people?

 

Yes, we went to watch the Blues play the Las Vegas Golden Knights.  It was a pure slaughter, and I might not have such negative feelings about NHL Hockey in person, if the score hadn’t been 6-1 against.  The Blues were in second place and I think they have won two games since.  

 

Our golf courses are open, I played about a month ago.  I am a 17 handicap.  Used to be an 11 until I switched clubs.  Harder course, and doesn’t fit my ball shape, used to draw everything, and sometimes too much.  So, I had to learn to cut the ball.... Yikes.  Last round was one of my best in a long while.  I parred first 3 holes.  Number 4 is the hardest hole on the course, and from the middle tees plays at about 420 yards.  Fortunately I had a south wind helping.  I cleared the bunker on the left by 30 yards... very unusual. Was about 190 out, hit and easy 4 rescue club to 8 feet, made a putt that I never seem to make on that green.  Hit the ball on the next tee way left back into 4 fairway, that old hook surfaces every now and again.  Laid up over the trees in the fairway to about 80 yards, knocked it inside 8 feet, made the put.  The next hole when I was younger was a driveable par 4, hooked it again, hit a tree, was about 100 out and with a decent angle needing to hook my wedge a bit to get it to the hole.  I hit it to about 5 feet, made the putt. Was 2 under now after 6.  Ended up shooting 37 on the front and 45 on the back. Still for me a really good round.  I wasn’t hitting the ball all that well mostly, but I was lights out with the short stick, all day.

 

They aerated the greens right after I am afraid to go back and it is supposed to snow tomorrow.

[Coralc]

8 hours ago, Shorewalk Holmes said:

 

My wife is an RN.  She rotates between 3 KN95 masks, leaving 2 days for each mask to dry out.

Her employer should be providing a new fresh one for her every day. OSHA law, unless it is not a requirement and she is wearing one voluntarily. 

[coffeebean]

9 hours ago, crewsweeper said:

.........And supposedly, the CDC says if vaccinated after a month, you can no longer get or transmit the virus. But how would a cruise line or fellow passenger know you were vaccinated without carrying around your vaccine card on a lanyard?

 

 

I wish this were true but from what I read on the CDC website, it is not true. This is the latest from the CDC from April 2, 2021. "Key Points", bullet #6 addresses what I have highlighted in your post.......

Recommendations For Fully Vaccinated People

[coffeebean]

9 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

Masks don't do anything for either, especially norovirus, which can be transmitted in several different ways

Sorry, you are incorrect about masks not working for Covid. They are very effective for source control, even the surgical masks. I realize anti-maskers do not believe this but there must be a reason why the entire world has their populations masking up.

[Shorewalk Holmes]

Just now, Coralc said:

Her employer should be providing a new fresh one for her every day. OSHA law, unless it is not a requirement and she is wearing one voluntarily. 

 

Thanks for caring about her!

 

She isn't taking direct care of patients any more, but works primarily with staff in a hospital with (non-covid) patients. They would give her the standard cheap medical mask each day, but the fit is terrible and the electrostatic properties aren't nearly as good.  She and most everyone she works with are already vaccinated.

[coffeebean]

38 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

Yes, control is important, have you discussed this with a care provider.  In America we are free to choose, unless, and I missed it the constitution has been amended.  

Discussed what with a care provider???? Were you responding to my post? This response makes no sense to me.

[ReneeFLL]

54 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Sorry, you are incorrect about masks not working for Covid. They are very effective for source control, even the surgical masks. I realize anti-maskers do not believe this but there must be a reason why the entire world has their populations masking up.

I agree with you and there is a reason why there is a great reduction in flu cases compared to before. I know the anti-maskers are going to say it’s because of the hand washing and sanitizers. I agree with that also, but the masks also have a big part in it. They just want to continue on with their freedom and control thing. 🙄

[atgood]

Give it a read and decide for yourself. 
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680614/

“Conclusion

The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive intervention for public health.“

 

 

[crewsweeper]

9 hours ago, coffeebean said:

I wish this were true but from what I read on the CDC website, it is not true. This is the latest from the CDC from April 2, 2021. "Key Points", bullet #6 addresses what I have highlighted in your post.......

Recommendations For Fully Vaccinated People

Lots of "coulds" and "modeling" in those. But basically saying "Get Vaccinated" and things will improve.

Since every adult can now get a vaccine and there are plenty unused vaccines around, what officials are seeing is that many young people are skeptical and anti-vaxxers are edging them on via social media.  Yet Under-30s are the largest cohort testing positive for COVID.

 

I'm not anti-mask in certain situations, and if a business or workplace asks me to wear a mask on entering I do.  The idea of wearing a mask outdoors, or while you are eating/drinking or even while driving your own car with no one else around, is overkill.  I've been vaccinated-2 shots and if booster is required will get that too. 

 

But all these NIH and CDC regulations are being pushed out without proper review and follow-up.  We have, in effect in the country, the greatest study group of all.  With every state and even various locales within the states pushing different means of dealing with COVID, we can and should see which works which doesn't.  Thus far, masks/no masks are a draw.  No real overall difference in prevention.  Vaccines, on the other hand, do appear to be working, but it could (there's that hedge word ,again) be too early to really tell.  

[Keksie]

Our school district is deciding tonight if the kids should still wear masks.  The county next to us already did away with the mask requirement for the kids so I think ours will too.  Currently the nail salon, doctor offices and Sam's club are the only places we have to wear masks.

[TheMastodon]

10 hours ago, coffeebean said:

I am and have always been a strong proponent of universal masking. I have, and still do, always wear a mask in public indoor spaces, even in restaurants unless I'm seated and eating and drinking. I have never worn a mask outdoors and always keep my distance from others when I'm indoors and outdoors. I'm fully vaccinated and continue to mask as I have already mentioned.

 

Having said that, I will wait to cruise when masks are not mandated. I don't want to spend vacation money and have to mask up, so I'll wait.

 

Masks in a restaurant is cosmetic theatre

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, atgood said:

Give it a read and decide for yourself. 
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680614/

“Conclusion

The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive intervention for public health.“

 

 

Pure and utter bunk.  Written by an exercise physiologist and the article has been roundly criticized.  People need to stop spreading misinformation.  Most laughable is that if the author's hypothesis is true,  every doctor, nurse, and scientist that wears a mask for extended periods of time each day should be passing out, committing serious medical malpractice or dropping dead on a regular basis.  Not to mention the millions of folks who wear masks regularly in industries including construction, pharmaceuticals and food production.  

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/16/diamond-and-silk/medical-hypotheses-journal-article-lacks-evidence-/

 

Medical Hypotheses says its purpose "is to publish interesting theoretical papers. The journal will consider radical, speculative and non-mainstream scientific ideas provided they are coherently expressed."
 

In November, it published the article cited in the Facebook post, which was authored by Baruch Vainshelboim. The article says Vainshelboim works in a cardiology division of the U.S. Veterans Affairs Palo Alto Health Care System in California. He identifies himself in his LinkedIn profile as a clinical exercise physiologist, with a doctorate from University of Porto in Portugal.

 

The part of the article copied in the Facebook post lists 12 physiological effects as being caused by wearing a face mask. They include conditions such as hypoxemia and hypercapnia, as well as more general effects such as shortness of breath, "toxicity" and "increased muscle tension."
 

"This is a list of generally discredited hypotheses that have been tested and disproved," said Benjamin Neuman, biology professor at Texas A&M University and chief viologist of the university’s Global Health Research Complex.

 

"This seems to be a piece of deceptive writing from what appears to be a non-expert. It isn't science."

Edited April 20, 2021 by harkinmr

[BSocial]

1 hour ago, atgood said:

Give it a read and decide for yourself. 
 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7680614/

“Conclusion

The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hypercapnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deterioration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive intervention for public health.“

 

 

@atgood , I only read the first few pages of your link, but it says it is a Hypothesis.   Is this a working paper?  It doesn’t appear to be a scientific statement from NIH or CDC.    
 

in part:  “Clinical scientific evidence challenges further the efficacy of facemasks to block human-to-human transmission or infectivity. A randomized controlled trial (RCT) of 246 participants [123 (50%) symptomatic)] who were allocated to either wearing or not wearing surgical facemask, assessing viruses transmission including coronavirus ^[26]. ” 

 

hypotheses based on 246 participants.....

[atgood]

34 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

Pure and utter bunk.  Written by an exercise physiologist and the article has been roundly criticized.  People need to stop spreading misinformation.  Most laughable is that if the author's hypothesis is true,  every doctor, nurse, and scientist that wears a mask for extended periods of time each day should be passing out, committing serious medical malpractice or dropping dead on a regular basis.  Not to mention the millions of folks who wear masks regularly in industries including construction, pharmaceuticals and food production.  

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/16/diamond-and-silk/medical-hypotheses-journal-article-lacks-evidence-/

 

Medical Hypotheses says its purpose "is to publish interesting theoretical papers. The journal will consider radical, speculative and non-mainstream scientific ideas provided they are coherently expressed."
 

In November, it published the article cited in the Facebook post, which was authored by Baruch Vainshelboim. The article says Vainshelboim works in a cardiology division of the U.S. Veterans Affairs Palo Alto Health Care System in California. He identifies himself in his LinkedIn profile as a clinical exercise physiologist, with a doctorate from University of Porto in Portugal.

 

The part of the article copied in the Facebook post lists 12 physiological effects as being caused by wearing a face mask. They include conditions such as hypoxemia and hypercapnia, as well as more general effects such as shortness of breath, "toxicity" and "increased muscle tension."
 

"This is a list of generally discredited hypotheses that have been tested and disproved," said Benjamin Neuman, biology professor at Texas A&M University and chief viologist of the university’s Global Health Research Complex.

 

"This seems to be a piece of deceptive writing from what appears to be a non-expert. It isn't science."

Nice job posting counter points. 
Masks would work in a perfect world.  Newsflash, the world is not perfect.  
 

People are gonna do what people are gonna do.  I see a lot of “cosmetic theater” wearers (probably over 50% is my unofficial estimate in Florida ).  We’re never going see the end of CV19 through mask wearing mandates. 
 

People are forgetting our bodies have something called an immune system.  Rather than getting caught up in mask shaming, we should be taking steps to increase our immune response. 

[mek]

15 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

 

You got to go to an actual NHL game? Darn, no such thing in Toronto. The Leafs are playing in an empty arena. Heck, our Blue Jays are playing in Dunedin, then Buffalo this season. I have no clue where the Raptor's are playing. And my Argos of the CFL (proper 3 down football for my American friends out there 😉) did not even play last year and might not play again this year.😭

 

And to add insult to injury our province just closed all the golf courses for the next six weeks. (Can you tell I'm a bigger sports nut than a cruising nut?)

 

Back to my question, did the usher really give you grief about wearing a mask? Or was it for taking it off to talk to other people?

 

Golf courses are closed?  To me that is the height of stupidity.  Sorry, but I think most outdoor activities are safe.

[DirtyDawg]

17 minutes ago, mek said:

Golf courses are closed?  To me that is the height of stupidity.  Sorry, but I think most outdoor activities are safe.

Our Premier (like a Governor) also shut down soccer fields, basketball courts, and playgrounds when he announced the tightening of our lockdowns in Ontario last week. He had to reverse himself on the playground closures this past weekend due to the uproar from parents.  Our golf season just got started so there has not been much of a backlash yet from the golfers but this will grow in May as we start to miss our golfing fix! 🏌️‍♂️⛳

Edited April 20, 2021 by DirtyDawg

[mek]

6 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

Our Premier (like a Governor) also shut down soccer fields, basketball courts, and playgrounds when he announced the tightening of our lockdowns in Ontario last week. He had to reverse himself on the playground closures this past weekend due to the uproar from parents.  Our golf season just got started so there has not been much of a backlash yet from the golfers but this will grow in May as we start to miss our golfing fix! 🏌️‍♂️⛳

There was a piece on the news the other night about how golf courses and golf related businesses were one of the economic bright spots this past year in the US.  I hope your government reconsiders the ban on outside sports.

 One of the few times this past year  I was able to be with my 6 year old grandson before I was vaccinated was to play Putt Putt with him.  We played together all last summer and into the fall.  Everyone was wearing a mask but frankly I would have been fine w/o one.

 

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, atgood said:

Nice job posting counter points. 
Masks would work in a perfect world.  Newsflash, the world is not perfect.  
 

People are gonna do what people are gonna do.  I see a lot of “cosmetic theater” wearers (probably over 50% is my unofficial estimate in Florida ).  We’re never going see the end of CV19 through mask wearing mandates. 
 

People are forgetting our bodies have something called an immune system.  Rather than getting caught up in mask shaming, we should be taking steps to increase our immune response. 

The sheer nonsense posted in that article has already been called for what it is: an unscientific article with no real basis in fact.  Already been disproven by the many real experts in the field.  I don't have to do that.  "Cosmetic theater".  Really?  I live in Florida.  I wear a mask.  And believe me, it's not "theater".  I understand and abide by the science and the guidance stemming therefrom.  I'll tell you what "theater" is.  It's the anti-mask crowd wandering around mask less to prove some ill-conceived, misinformed point and then sneering at those that do.  Now THAT"S theater.

[TheMastodon]

1 hour ago, harkinmr said:

Pure and utter bunk.  Written by an exercise physiologist and the article has been roundly criticized.  People need to stop spreading misinformation.  Most laughable is that if the author's hypothesis is true,  every doctor, nurse, and scientist that wears a mask for extended periods of time each day should be passing out, committing serious medical malpractice or dropping dead on a regular basis.  Not to mention the millions of folks who wear masks regularly in industries including construction, pharmaceuticals and food production.  

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/apr/16/diamond-and-silk/medical-hypotheses-journal-article-lacks-evidence-/

 

Medical Hypotheses says its purpose "is to publish interesting theoretical papers. The journal will consider radical, speculative and non-mainstream scientific ideas provided they are coherently expressed."
 

In November, it published the article cited in the Facebook post, which was authored by Baruch Vainshelboim. The article says Vainshelboim works in a cardiology division of the U.S. Veterans Affairs Palo Alto Health Care System in California. He identifies himself in his LinkedIn profile as a clinical exercise physiologist, with a doctorate from University of Porto in Portugal.

 

The part of the article copied in the Facebook post lists 12 physiological effects as being caused by wearing a face mask. They include conditions such as hypoxemia and hypercapnia, as well as more general effects such as shortness of breath, "toxicity" and "increased muscle tension."
 

"This is a list of generally discredited hypotheses that have been tested and disproved," said Benjamin Neuman, biology professor at Texas A&M University and chief viologist of the university’s Global Health Research Complex.

 

"This seems to be a piece of deceptive writing from what appears to be a non-expert. It isn't science."

 

 

"Experts are super smart and 100% reliable, experts confirm"

 

I thoroughly enjoyed this - been beating this drum for a long time.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DCGuy64]

I'm totally stealing that Bill Maher video. He's so right!

[atgood]

18 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The sheer nonsense posted in that article has already been called for what it is: an unscientific article with no real basis in fact.  Already been disproven by the many real experts in the field.  I don't have to do that.  "Cosmetic theater".  Really?  I live in Florida.  I wear a mask.  And believe me, it's not "theater".  I understand and abide by the science and the guidance stemming therefrom.  I'll tell you what "theater" is.  It's the anti-mask crowd wandering around mask less to prove some ill-conceived, misinformed point and then sneering at those that do.  Now THAT"S theater.

I was being genuine in mentioning the counterpoints you referred to.

 

Please try to lighten up a bit.  Life is short.  
 

I do not believe in mask shaming.  If someone wants to wear one, it’s fine with me.  
 

The problem with “the science” is real life is not contained within a lab.  

Edited April 20, 2021 by atgood

[DCGuy64]

There's a saying about the 1st Amendment that "your rights end at my nose." IOW you have the right to your opinions, but the moment you attempt to dictate what I can and cannot say, we've got a problem.

Similar thing with masks. You want to wear one for you, great. Try and force me to wear one, especially when I'm vaccinated, then yeah, we've got a problem. I respect the rights of private businesses to determine what people must do on their premises, but when I'm out in public, if you try and shame me for not wearing a mask, there's gonna be trouble. Fortunately, so far it hasn't happened.

[harkinmr]

5 minutes ago, atgood said:

I was being genuine in mentioning the counterpoints you referred to.

 

Please try to lighten up a bit.  Life is short.  
 

I do not believe in mask shaming.  If someone wants to wear one, it’s fine with me.  
 

The problem with “the science” is real life is not contained within a lab.  

You say you do not believe in "mask shaming" and if one wears one it's ok with you, but then you claim everyone doing so is participating in cosmetic theater.  Got it. Yes, you're very supportive.  Lol.

 

Science is science and it has to be supported by data and facts.  Science is not whatever we feel like it is.  Before posting nonsense people need to do some research.  Misinformation can be dangerous to another's health.