Official: Mediation in lawsuit against federal gov., CDC over cruising shutdown has failed

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, cruisegus said:

The CDC will renew the CSO in November with modifications, bank on it.

Unless covid is still considered a public health emergency, the CSO will expire, but some of the measures of the CSO, in my mind the port/service agreements/contracts, will become permanent as part of the VSP.

[Pratique]

1 hour ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

But if the current CSO is deemed unlawful, wouldn't that set a precedent for similar new orders?  Seems like a recipe for unending litigation. 

This happens all the time. A court says the government is doing something wrong, so the government comes up with something different. There's always a chance for litigation, we are a litigious country.

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, Pratique said:

This happens all the time. A court says the government is doing something wrong, so the government comes up with something different. There's always a chance for litigation, we are a litigious country.

 

True, we wouldn't have as many law professors like yourself if it were otherwise.  Are we the most litigious country or are there others on par with us? 

[zekekelso]

1 hour ago, Ocean Boy said:

.  I am not saying that oversight in the industry is nit goid or unneeded but what was done to the cruise industry is disgusting. And anyone who is more that a one hit wonder when it comes to cruising knows it. 

If the CDC’s actions are so completely out of line, how come the cruise lines simply aren’t sailing normally out of non-US ports? 

[Pratique]

5 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

True, we wouldn't have as many law professors like yourself if it were otherwise.  Are we the most litigious country or are there others on par with us? 

Not sure, but Americans sure seem to like to take their grievances to court, and I suppose it's because of their propensity to take advantage of each other (just my theory). Compare to Japan where people take personal responsibility for just about everything. I was at a hotel in Tokyo and the bellhop was profusely apologizing to me for who knows what, I think maybe she thought she was making me walk too far to my room. I turned on the news on TV and saw people burying their faces in shame for something they might or might not have done (I had no idea what they were saying because I don't speak or read Japanese). It was a little strange to me, never happens here.

 

Truth be told, most lawyers never appear in court and are not involved in litigation. I've only been in court twice - once in a pro bono domestic violence case and once (by telephone) in an administrative appeals case. For most it's a desk job with lots of writing and research.

[jrapps]

34 minutes ago, exm said:

I wish we could leave politics out of here. I get, if you're a Democrat you don't like DeSantis. Fact is that as of now it's not DeSantis blocking cruises from Florida. The lawsuit we're talking about will do away with all restrictions including those unnecessary and ridiculous test cruises. Then it will become relevant how to deal with DeSantis' anti-vaccine card mandate.

 

I have a think or two to say about Democratic Governors and their handling of Covid, but I'm leaving that out of a cruise forum. It would be great if you guys can leave politics out of here also.

You know when my kids do something wrong, and then start apologizing by saying "I'm sorry, but..." and then give every excuses to why they're not actually sorry it's not a real apology.

 

Likewise when you say I wish people would just leave politics out of it, and then in the same post, bring up politics it rings hollow. Your defense of DeSantis (and not so subtle dig at Democratic Governors) in the situation is in fact a political statement, and what's worse you say "the fact is" instead of "your opinion is"

 

The fact is that whether your registered Republican Democrat or Independent does not automatically guarantee you to agreeing or disagreeing with everything a politician says and does. It's their actions that matter to a lot of us.

 

Your opinion is that DeSantis is not blocking cruises. I would counter that my opinion is that at this particular moment in time DeSantis is doing more to get in the way of cruises starting as quickly and safely as possible. If he had never started down this ridiculous vaccine passport issue, we might actually have cruise ships sailing already. The cruise lines have felt stuck in the middle being jerked around by both sides and have had to delay their implementation plans trying to figure out all of this legal crap. Note I am not absolving the CDC of blame in this situation. But it seems like most people here blame either the CDC or DeSantis. If you would ask me who is responsible for getting in the way of cruising prior to mid-April, my opinion would have been the CDC was almost completely responsible. Ron has taken that title away from them.

 

The other irony of the situation is that cruise lines are in the process of getting going. Even if the entire CSO was repealed tomorrow, I don't think it would have an appreciable difference in how fast the lines can get going because they still need to completely staff up their ships, retrain employees, stock supplies, etc. These things take time which is why we're not seeing test cruises happening now but rather several weeks to month from now. It also takes time to vaccinate your crew, And again in my opinion is that the lines would be vaccinating their entire crew even without a CSO in place. They don't want a breakout on a ship anymore than we do.

 

Hopefully the judge will rule soon, but for those looking to this ruling has the magic kick in the pants to get cruising started faster I just don't see it happening. The only relevant issue is how to deal with DeSantis' anti-vaccine card mandate (IMO)

[orville99]

24 minutes ago, jrapps said:

The only relevant issue is how to deal with DeSantis' anti-vaccine card mandate (IMO)

Celebrity will be testing that conundrum as soon they start sailing from Florida with the 95%/98% vaccination requirements in place.

[Biker19]

Just now, orville99 said:

Celebrity will be testing that conundrum as soon they start sailing from Florida with the 95%/98% vaccination requirements in place.

The 98 dropped to 95 about a week ago.

[kearney]

1 minute ago, Biker19 said:

The 98 dropped to 95 about a week ago.

Isn't it 98% crew and 95% passenger... or did they drop the crew to 95%?

[Biker19]

Just now, kearney said:

Isn't it 98% crew and 95% passenger... or did they drop the crew to 95%?

The latter, I seem to recall an update by the CDC on 5/26.

[kearney]

Just now, Biker19 said:

The latter, I seem to recall an update by the CDC on 5/26.

I must have missed that... I thought it was still 98/95

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, exm said:

I wish we could leave politics out of here. I get, if you're a Democrat you don't like DeSantis. Fact is that as of now it's not DeSantis blocking cruises from Florida. The lawsuit we're talking about will do away with all restrictions including those unnecessary and ridiculous test cruises. Then it will become relevant how to deal with DeSantis' anti-vaccine card mandate.

 

I have a think or two to say about Democratic Governors and their handling of Covid, but I'm leaving that out of a cruise forum. It would be great if you guys can leave politics out of here also.

The lawsuit is just noise at this point. The judge gave Florida a chance to reach a compromise with mediation, but when what you want isn’t amenable to compromise mediation does not work. Now it is highly likely the judge denies Florida injunctive relief and the case is mired down in a trial. Meanwhile cruising is restarting.  

[harkinmr]

40 minutes ago, jrapps said:

You know when my kids do something wrong, and then start apologizing by saying "I'm sorry, but..." and then give every excuses to why they're not actually sorry it's not a real apology.

 

Likewise when you say I wish people would just leave politics out of it, and then in the same post, bring up politics it rings hollow. Your defense of DeSantis (and not so subtle dig at Democratic Governors) in the situation is in fact a political statement, and what's worse you say "the fact is" instead of "your opinion is"

 

The fact is that whether your registered Republican Democrat or Independent does not automatically guarantee you to agreeing or disagreeing with everything a politician says and does. It's their actions that matter to a lot of us.

 

Your opinion is that DeSantis is not blocking cruises. I would counter that my opinion is that at this particular moment in time DeSantis is doing more to get in the way of cruises starting as quickly and safely as possible. If he had never started down this ridiculous vaccine passport issue, we might actually have cruise ships sailing already. The cruise lines have felt stuck in the middle being jerked around by both sides and have had to delay their implementation plans trying to figure out all of this legal crap. Note I am not absolving the CDC of blame in this situation. But it seems like most people here blame either the CDC or DeSantis. If you would ask me who is responsible for getting in the way of cruising prior to mid-April, my opinion would have been the CDC was almost completely responsible. Ron has taken that title away from them.

 

The other irony of the situation is that cruise lines are in the process of getting going. Even if the entire CSO was repealed tomorrow, I don't think it would have an appreciable difference in how fast the lines can get going because they still need to completely staff up their ships, retrain employees, stock supplies, etc. These things take time which is why we're not seeing test cruises happening now but rather several weeks to month from now. It also takes time to vaccinate your crew, And again in my opinion is that the lines would be vaccinating their entire crew even without a CSO in place. They don't want a breakout on a ship anymore than we do.

 

Hopefully the judge will rule soon, but for those looking to this ruling has the magic kick in the pants to get cruising started faster I just don't see it happening. The only relevant issue is how to deal with DeSantis' anti-vaccine card mandate (IMO)

Well said.  

[jrapps]

1 minute ago, harkinmr said:

The lawsuit is just noise at this point. The judge gave Florida a chance to reach a compromise with mediation, but when what you want isn’t amenable to compromise mediation does not work. Now it is highly likely the judge denies Florida injunctive relief and the case is mired down in a trial. Meanwhile cruising is restarting.  

How long do cases like this normally take to go to trial? If it takes a year or longer, by the time it would even come up in a court, ships will all be sailing and the CSO might even be a thing of the past. They will silently withdraw the case a year from now when no-one is looking.

[kearney]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

The lawsuit is just noise at this point. The judge gave Florida a chance to reach a compromise with mediation, but when what you want isn’t amenable to compromise mediation does not work. Now it is highly likely the judge denies Florida injunctive relief and the case is mired down in a trial. Meanwhile cruising is restarting.  

For cruisers who have plans in place for the next few months July-Sep... the worst thing that could happen...would be for Florida to win. It would completely disrupt plans... right now those who are booked are comfortable with virtually all vaccinated cruise... If this were to suddenly open up... the whole masking not masking issue opens up again... because regardless.. cruise lines are going to want to pursue the healthiest option..so they will follow some form of CDC guidance.. So we go from what will likely be nearly normal...to some confusing mix.

 

As I have said before... just let the cruise lines start up with virtually all vaccinated... and limited restrictions... then later... after several months of this... switch over to anyone... hopefully by then no masks and social distancing will be needed... 

 

I understand what DeSantis was trying to accomplish...in the beginning... but the situation has changed.. he needs to be flexible, the cards are not going his way (win he loses and loses he loses) and he will be the one viewed as responsible for additional delays...sure the CDC held things up for many months...but in a world of "what have you done for me lately" this mess will be owned by him... and I am a fan of many of his policies... but I think he has become blind to this situation.

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, jrapps said:

How long do cases like this normally take to go to trial? If it takes a year or longer, by the time it would even come up in a court, ships will all be sailing and the CSO might even be a thing of the past. They will silently withdraw the case a year from now when no-one is looking.

Hard to say on time. The judge could expedite matters, but trials are a cumbersome process at best. I would tend to agree that by the time there is a resolution, the CSO may have expired either by date or by HHS dropping the public health emergency and cruises will be well on the way to a full restart. You made a very good point in your post that the cruise lines are not going to come rushing back and precautions will be taken with or without the CDC. This will not be the free-for-all so many think it should be. 

[harkinmr]

1 minute ago, kearney said:

For cruisers who have plans in place for the next few months July-Sep... the worst thing that could happen...would be for Florida to win. It would completely disrupt plans... right now those who are booked are comfortable with virtually all vaccinated cruise... If this were to suddenly open up... the whole masking not masking issue opens up again... because regardless.. cruise lines are going to want to pursue the healthiest option..so they will follow some form of CDC guidance.. So we go from what will likely be nearly normal...to some confusing mix.

 

As I have said before... just let the cruise lines start up with virtually all vaccinated... and limited restrictions... then later... after several months of this... switch over to anyone... hopefully by then no masks and social distancing will be needed... 

 

I understand what DeSantis was trying to accomplish...in the beginning... but the situation has changed.. he needs to be flexible, the cards are not going his way (win he loses and loses he loses) and he will be the one viewed as responsible for additional delays...sure the CDC held things up for many months...but in a world of "what have you done for me lately" this mess will be owned by him... and I am a fan of many of his policies... but I think he has become blind to this situation.

Agreed. 

[jrapps]

7 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

This will not be the free-for-all so many think it should be. 

For some reason this reminded me of an old cruise commercial...Norwegian did this ad campaign, free to do what I want, and have a good time.

 

 

Cruise lines...Free, to do what they want (except require vaccines)

[boatseller]

1 hour ago, Jimbo said:

Parks and cruiseships are MUCH different .

Other than one floats and that other doesn't, they are not that much different.

 

And related to communicable diseases, they are especially not that different.  In practice, theme park are worse.  Yet the CDC doesn't seem to care.

 

I've sailed on plenty of ships and been to plenty of theme parks.  Hotels, restaurants, lines, crowds, shows, bars, shops, pools, cast/crew, bands, keycards, busses, and now even roller & water coasters.

 

Wow, they're even more similar than even I had thought.

[Pratique]

19 minutes ago, jrapps said:

How long do cases like this normally take to go to trial? If it takes a year or longer, by the time it would even come up in a court, ships will all be sailing and the CSO might even be a thing of the past. They will silently withdraw the case a year from now when no-one is looking.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean it necessarily goes away. I'm following a Supreme Court case about New York City gun laws where the law was changed to moot the litigation but the Court is keeping it alive anyway. Florida might want to set a precedent so the CDC can't do this again and keep fighting long after the CSO expires.

 

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-280_ba7d.pdf

[boatseller]

1 hour ago, Pratique said:

You wait and see, I will be right about this. If the judge rules that the CSO exceeds the CDC's authority, he will have to explain why. That will be a roadmap for crafting a new order. CDC has statutory authority, the only question is how far that authority extends. The judge won't rule the statute unlawful because that isn't being challenged.

I know, never said the statute was unlawful.  Judges don't have to explain why, they do usually for, well, reasons, depends on how hot the potato is.

 

It's really sad too many people think these bureacracies are above challenge.

[jrapps]

2 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Other than one floats and that other doesn't, they are not that much different.

 

And related to communicable diseases, they are especially not that different.  In practice, theme park are worse.  Yet the CDC doesn't seem to care.

 

I've sailed on plenty of ships and been to plenty of theme parks.  Hotels, restaurants, lines, crowds, shows, bars, shops, pools, cast/crew, bands, keycards, busses, and now even roller & water coasters.

 

Wow, they're even more similar than even I had thought.

As someone who goes to theme parks and cruises on a very regular basis, my opinion is they are VERY different, especially with respect to communicable disease transmission. I can't tell you how many times I've been on a cruise ship and I run into the same people over, and over, and over. Its uncanny. It all about transmission vectors. When I see someone at Disney World, the chances of running into them again (or even being within 100ft of them again) that same day or over the span of 5-7 days, is negligent. The chances of me being within 10 feet of the same people over and over again on a ship of 3000 people is much higher.

 

Sure, they all have lines, and food, and water attractions. You are talking about entertainment experience, not health & safety. 

[Pratique]

3 minutes ago, boatseller said:

I know, never said the statute was unlawful.  Judges don't have to explain why, they do usually for, well, reasons, depends on how hot the potato is.

 

It's really sad too many people think these bureacracies are above challenge.

The judge does have to explain why so his reasoning can be evaluated on appeal.

[boatseller]

22 minutes ago, kearney said:

 right now those who are booked are comfortable with virtually all vaccinated cruise...

If someone requires fully vax'd to feel comfortable, they should not be cruising, or doing much of anything.

 

There's still plenty of other stuff hanging around out there that are just as bad as covid or world for most people.

[boatseller]

2 minutes ago, jrapps said:

As someone who goes to theme parks and cruises on a very regular basis, my opinion is they are VERY different, especially with respect to communicable disease transmission. I can't tell you how many times I've been on a cruise ship and I run into the same people over, and over, and over. Its uncanny. It all about transmission vectors. When I see someone at Disney World, the chances of running into them again (or even being within 100ft of them again) that same day or over the span of 5-7 days, is negligent. The chances of me being within 10 feet of the same people over and over again on a ship of 3000 people is much higher.

 

Sure, they all have lines, and food, and water attractions. You are talking about entertainment experience, not health & safety. 

Different people doesn't matter.  If flu prevelance is 10%, then 10% of the people you encounter are statistically carriers.  Doesn't matter if it's the same people or 10 different people.