A ship is profitable at 17% capacity?

[fstuff1]

I'm currently on the Summit 4day cruise.

there's like 350 pax and the ship capacity is 2100.

350/2100 = 16.7%.

(Last cruise was also around 350 pax according to multiple crew.)

 

There's almost noone in the casino so they're not re-cooping revenue for the low pax count from this normally profitable dept.

I guess they lose less $ sailing with this low passenger count than having it just sit in port?

 

[mfs2k]

I hope you got a good discount 

[Janthere]

33 minutes ago, fstuff1 said:

I'm currently on the Summit 4day cruise.

there's like 350 pax and the ship capacity is 2100.

350/2100 = 16.7%.

(Last cruise was also around 350 pax according to multiple crew.)

 

There's almost noone in the casino so they're not re-cooping revenue for the low pax count from this normally profitable dept.

I guess they lose less $ sailing with this low passenger count than having it just sit in port?

 

what is the atmosphere like on the ship with so few people? Obviously you wouldn't be standing in lines or fighting for deck chairs but just wondered if you felt it was a lesser experience overall? I am cruising the Nov 3 sailing. I don't think Celebrity has much choice at this point since the logistics and costs to idle a cruise ship and crew for a few short weeks or month would not be feasible either. 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by janbear
added another thought :-)

[Virga]

I'm so darned curious about this.  Is everything open normal hours?  How do they even try to offer a buffet?  I cannot really wrap my head around a pax load like this.

 

Anything you want to share about what it's like to sail on (practically) a private sailing would be really interesting to me!

[NutsAboutGolf]

Reportedly, at the end of the Apex sailings in Greece, capacity hovered around 10%

 

Like the recent tiktok video that went viral when a passenger flew from the US to Singapore and was the only passenger on the flight, cruise lines/airline agreements with ports/airport is to keep things moving even if low capacity.

 

To oversimplify it, by not sailing they're breaking port contracts which could end up costing the cruise line far more in either the next contract and/or in legal fees.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/twitter-user-chronicles-journey-only-184226490.html

Edited October 28, 2021 by NutsAboutGolf

[Virga]

7 minutes ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

Reportedly, at the end of the Apex sailings in Greece, capacity hovered around 10%

 

Like the recent tiktok video that went viral when a passenger flew from the US to Singapore and was the only passenger on the flight, part cruise lines/airline agreements with ports/airport is to keep things moving even if low capacity.

 

To oversimplify it, by not sailing they're breaking port contracts which could end up costing the cruiseline far more in either the next contract and/or in legal fees.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/twitter-user-chronicles-journey-only-184226490.html

 

I definitely understand how that could work for airlines, I'm familiar with similar rules relating to gate/slot 'ownership' domestically.  I'm curious how that will change the look of domestic travel when the pandemic exemptions for such things start to expire.  It somehow hadn't occurred to me that cruise lines might have very similar arrangements.

[garyl62]

Don't want to highjack this, but I was on the sailing right before fstuff1 so I'll give you a couple quick thoughts from me, but hope he/she answers too.

 

We had 379 onboard, not sure if it's profitable, but at some point they need to bring crew back so they are ready and have met all requirements to sail when bigger crowds come, if approximately 400 guests are paying tips, and cruise fare that helps offset some expense.  I doubt they are turning a profit, but maybe they have less of a loss by just sitting offshore.  They are also getting social media posts of people onboard that will get other people to return faster.

 

I thought everything was great onboard, enough people that you saw someone everywhere, but didn't wait for an elevator, or to long at a bar, buffet was in full operation with all options, but it was easy to find a table.  The one downer was probably the comedian one night.  Crowd wasn't big enough to really get him rolling, but the other shows had enough interaction that they still felt pretty normal.  Silent disco really was hopping and people were out at events until at least midnight which I can't always say is the case on Celebrity even on a full ship.  In no way was I disappointed because of the low numbers, it will never happen again, but I'd love taking a trip like this again.  Crew kept saying "It's the cruise of a lifetime" and it really was, we'll be talking positively about this for a long time.  Especially next time we're on a full ship looking for a lounger or table by the window in the Oceanview Café.

[fstuff1]

9 minutes ago, janbear said:

what is the atmosphere like on the ship with so few people? Obviously you wouldn't be standing in lines or fighting for deck chairs but just wondered if you felt it was a lesser experience overall? I am cruising the Nov 3 sailing. I don't think Celebrity has much choice at this point since the logistics and costs to idle a cruise ship and crew for a few short weeks or month would not be feasible either. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Virga said:

I'm so darned curious about this.  Is everything open normal hours?  How do they even try to offer a buffet?  I cannot really wrap my head around a pax load like this.

 

Anything you want to share about what it's like to sail on (practically) a private sailing would be really interesting to me!

 

no lines.

 

1st day every non-officer crew member (wiping down stair handrails, working at buffet, bartender, etc) saying hi and welcome to me.

it happened at least a dozen times at the buffet in the span of 5 min (both lunch and dinner).

i was the only person getting food at the buffet at both times. (i walked around the entire buffet, 360 degrees.)

lots of buffet staff just standing around.

felt a little uneasy with so much attention to me.

 

LOTS AND LOTS of dessert were put out, just as if it was a near full cruise.

all stations had full complement of food (all spots at the station had food) but i guess they are catering to many people.

some might like indian. others asian. and yet others american. etc.

 

at lunch i was there an hr before closing (~2pm) so unless there was a rush of people after me, alot of wasted food. i assume grounded up and fed to the fishes, like NCL does. (ncl does not re-use cooked lunch buffet for dinner.)

 

for dinner, i was there shortly after open so no idea about waste.

but like lunch, every station had food in every spot except the meat carving station.

(for lunch, there was a BIG roast beef at the carving station that was barely sliced.)

 

for the shore excursion talk in the theater, there were only 7 of us there although there was at least 1 person in the upper floor. (he won one of the raffle prizes after the talk.)

 

and there are kids on this cruise.

1 family with 3 kids, all age 5 or below.

and i saw a teen boy and a tween girl on separate occasions.

 

[intr3pid]

Other than food and some fuel, most cost is fixed.  It nets them even less when not sailing.

[dandee2]

Those ships are run like businesses. in any good year they pay almost no income tax anyway. They are running at a lost which in all probability will be spread over many years. No worry about the cruise line, they are doing jus fine.

 

[NutsAboutGolf]

30 minutes ago, Virga said:

 

I definitely understand how that could work for airlines, I'm familiar with similar rules relating to gate/slot 'ownership' domestically.  I'm curious how that will change the look of domestic travel when the pandemic exemptions for such things start to expire.  It somehow hadn't occurred to me that cruise lines might have very similar arrangements.

 

A single plane not making its flight to a major airport would hardy have any effect on the airport.  Not so with a cruise ship port visit which currently might only be three ships per day at most.  Just a few examples, Port mariners need to keep the ship's lane clear and send a Pilot to the ship to assist navigating it safety into port, pier workers secure the ship, they also ready the ship to receive fuel, officials walk aboard to validate paperwork before clearing the ship to allow the ships passengers and staff off, etc.  My best guess, ports anticipated the cruise lines canceling due to low capacity and they was addressed this in their contract/agreement.

 

To oversimply again, Celebrity decided its more profitable to sail with an on-board loss than it is to cancel to the entire sailing.

[DCPIV]

I've been on Summit twice in the last three months. One sailing was with about 450. The more recent (a few weeks ago) was at about 270. It was wonderful. 

 

The Captain on the earlier sailing told us that it wasn't as much about making money as it was about showing everyone they could sail safely. 

[Stockjock]

Our NYE cruise on Summit was supposedly sold out.  Looks like there are now a limited number of cabins available.  I do believe the covid numbers will continue to improve and I also believe that there is a huge pent-up demand to travel, once people feel it's safe to do so.  

But yes, it will take time and the media hasn't helped matters.  Rather than focus on the cruise lines' excellent covid safety records, they sensationalize the negative at every opportunity.

[the penguins]

5 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

I'm currently on the Summit 4day cruise.

there's like 350 pax and the ship capacity is 2100.

350/2100 = 16.7%.

(Last cruise was also around 350 pax according to multiple crew.)

 

There's almost noone in the casino so they're not re-cooping revenue for the low pax count from this normally profitable dept.

I guess they lose less $ sailing with this low passenger count than having it just sit in port?

 

According to Royal at various press conferences they break even at 35% capacity. Silhouette's summmer UK sailings varied from 300 to over 1500 (50%).

[jalves]

Forgive me but as a recovering bean counter I'm not understanding the subject line.  Who claimed a ship was profitable at 17% capacity?  Is somebody assuming that if it wasn't profitable it wouldn't have sailed?  

 

 

[mfs2k]

At 17% they are likely covering their variable costs with some contribution to their fixed costs. This is their preferable position as occupancy starts to increase. 

[Jeremiah1212]

They are fully aware that very low guest counts don't make money. But they have to restart somewhere and regain confidence in cruising. They also have to be in a position to have crews trained and ships staffed and on the ready when the time comes to handle higher guest counts.

 

At this point it doesn't make sense to cancel one-off cruises. Ships still have to function, crew still gets paid and needs to eat, fuel is being burnt, port fees will be incurred, etc. Might as well have at least a few passengers on board to provide some cash flow to counterbalance those costs.

[canderson]

There may be some confusion because some are thinking of this as a binary situation when it's not.

 

A

Sail at 35% or more (actual number depends on M, S, E class) = make money.

 

B

Sail at less than 35% and lose some money but keep the 'machine' turning.

 

C

Don't sail cruises with low pax counts, drive pax crazy with cancellations, reneg on contracts, let the machine become dysfunctional, and have no revenue at all to offset fixed costs, losing even more money than B.

[Silkroad]

I’m currently on Edge. I was told that we have 1,308 passengers on this sailing, while the previous cruise sailed with about 800 pax. I suspect we’ll see pax loads increase throughout this quarter. As others have said, Celebrity wants to demonstrate that they can sail without Covid outbreaks as they increase passenger loads. They’re doing a fine job on Edge. This morning, the Captain announced that we’ve had zero Covid cases amongst either passengers or crew. 

[jg51]

13 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

... at lunch i was there an hr before closing (~2pm) so unless there was a rush of people after me, alot of wasted food. i assume grounded up and fed to the fishes, like NCL does. (ncl does not re-use cooked lunch buffet for dinner.) ...

.

Thanks, "fstuff1," for your many interesting observations.

 

We have long disbelieved the rumor about cruise-ship food being "ground up and fed to the fishes."  Some food, yes, but most of it (we believe) is used in two other ways:

 

(1)  Some [probably most] of it goes to the crew's "mess."

 

(2)  Some of it goes to "creative" chefs who know how to "recycle" it for guests' meals.  For example, if 90% of a huge roast goes unserved to guests, a chef will trim away the outer 10% (which was exposed to the air), leaving about 4/5 of the original meat to be (a) sliced for sandwiches, (b) ground for burgers, (c) etc..

 

10 hours ago, Stockjock said:

Our NYE cruise on Summit was supposedly sold out. ...

.

May we ask, "Stockjock," what you mean by "NYE"?  It looks like something having to do with New York, but we have never seen that term in our (long) lives.  Thank you.

.

Edited October 28, 2021 by jg51

[JamieLogical]

8 minutes ago, jg51 said:

May we ask, "Stockjock," what you mean by "NYE"?  It looks like something having to do with New York, but we have never seen that term in our (long) lives.  Thank you..

 

NYE=New Year's Eve

[jg51]

14 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

I'm currently on the Summit 4day cruise. ...

 

.

Hello again, "fstuff1."

 

Since you are "live" aboard the Summit, we'd like to ask you about a different subject regarding that ship.  (If you or anyone else objects to us doing this, we will perfectly understand our not getting any answers -- and with no hard feelings.)

 

Sorry if this seems frivolous or if the answer seems too difficult to determine -- as it may require a phone call to Guest Services.)  On Deck 9 of most Solstice-Class ships, there is a room -- overlooking the Grand Foyer -- called the "Card Room," where there are tables at which people make jigsaw puzzles and play card games and board games.  Is there such a room now on Summit (where a puzzle could be made)? 

 

Back in 2008 (when we made our first completed ocean-going cruise), the M-class ships used to have such a "dedicated" room, but we think that it was re-assigned to some other purpose, many years ago.  We don't know if some other room is now available for puzzles and games on the Summit, etc..

 

In case you are told that there is no place on the ship for cards/games/puzzles ... we would hope to "fall back on" a certain alternative, if it exists -- namely, a big enough table in our stateroom.  Are you able to say if, during the 2019 modernization of Summit, the old round/oval [plexiglass?] tables were removed and replaced by the very heavy [wood/metal?] tables that are now in cabins [at least non-suite cabins] on Solstice-class ships?  [We know that those new tables are large enough to hold some puzzles.]

 

Thanks, in advance, for your reply.

.

[jg51]

5 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

NYE=New Year's Eve

Thank you!

[DCPIV]

9 hours ago, the penguins said:

According to Royal at various press conferences they break even at 35% capacity. Silhouette's summmer UK sailings varied from 300 to over 1500 (50%).

 

I've seen that same number kicked around, too.  I don't know how they got to that number, but I'm willing to bet that it takes less than 35% when the load is weighted heavily toward the suites (like what is happening now).

[Jeremiah1212]

9 minutes ago, DCPIV said:

 

I've seen that same number kicked around, too.  I don't know how they got to that number, but I'm willing to bet that it takes less than 35% when the load is weighted heavily toward the suites (like what is happening now).

 

Jason Liberty, the CFO of RCG, mentioned a few of those figures in loose terms on earnings calls. Although crew salary is not particularly high, many (if any?) of the ships sailing now have a 100% manned crew onboard so the number is skewed either way.