Milestone recognition being eliminated

[Ombud]

Scaling the rhetoric back (ignoring it), Carnival Corp is a business and as such has determined that removing this 'benefit' affects maybe 1-2 bookings per ship. Yes it affects many here (apparently). Yes most seniors can only afford maybe 1 cruise a year (doesn't mean all just most). Yes it needs to attract more (& YOUNGER) 1st-3rd time cruisers who spend more (on average) then those who take 6-8-12 cruises per year. Yes onboard spending is more profitable than cruise fares [especially at the current prices]. Yes their shop selections are changing and jacking up prices 20% / discounting 15% / negating elite 10% discount. Yes I look for them jacking up onboard medical services.  If anyone has cash value FCC and would prefer to cruise on another line due to the loss of the milestone recognition they can cash it in and cruise on Viking. RCCL, NCL, and MSC are also slimming down their perks / suffering with poor wifi / changing. It's not just CCL

 

But, I repeat, Carnival Corp is a business. And as a shareholder who really likes my shareholder OBC, kudos 

[CruzinNoony]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:47 PM, coo359a2 said:

Some actual facts and not suppositions.  On 10 cruises (PCL) since November, the 10% off has been given on each of our cruises for items that are not already on a special purchase price.  On our last cruise on the Caribbean Princess, I saw cartons of cigarettes being sold and carried out during the cruise.

 

  As far as Milestone recognition  goes it has changed.  DH reached 1000 days on our March Emerald Princess cruise.  He received all the bells and whistles which  did include  breakfast in Sabatinis for the both of us.  I reached 1000 days on our 15 Aug Caribbean Princess cruise and received nothing.  No letter to attend the CC Party to be recognized - have no problem with that as we don't always attend.  I asked about Sabatinis breakfast and was told that was only for those being recognized for the qualifying  milestone.    So based on what she said  is now a new rule,  only one milestone recognition is given to a couple. Can't really say if this rule is correct or not, but that is the way the L&E Manager was running her milestone program on the Caribbean Princess.   What is strange is that on our Travel Summary under the Redemption Section it shows that I had a Milestone Redemption.    Like the OP, for the last 2 1/2 years we had planned our cruises around both of us reaching this milestone and having breakfast in Sabatinis..  Time is against us   for ever reaching another Milestone.  

 

The reductions in perks will not have an impact on our cruising with Princess.  We have 10 more booked through 2023 and if 2024 has some good itineraries, we will probably book some. 

 

Hi Tina,  Thanks for clarifying how it was on the Emerald and the Caribbean ships.  You mentioned that that was the way the Loyalty & Events manager was running her milestone program on the Caribbean Princess.  I wonder if it is up to the L&E manager on each ship as to how they want to do it.  Interesting.  Hope all is well with you and Ken.  Hopefully, one of these days we will sail together again!!

[coo359a2]

1 hour ago, CruzinNoony said:

 

Hi Tina,  Thanks for clarifying how it was on the Emerald and the Caribbean ships.  You mentioned that that was the way the Loyalty & Events manager was running her milestone program on the Caribbean Princess.  I wonder if it is up to the L&E manager on each ship as to how they want to do it.  Interesting.  Hope all is well with you and Ken.  Hopefully, one of these days we will sail together again!!

The Caribbean Princess L&E Manager specifically told me it was Princess policy now and that the L&E Manager on the Emerald probably didn't know the "new" policy.  But she sure knew the "old" way of recognizing milestones.  Things do change and I survived missing out but did have fun planning   out all the cruises  to get to 1000 days even if 2 years late.  Pandemic really messed things up.  Would be nice to see y'all on another cruise.

[PescadoAmarillo]

2 hours ago, Ombud said:

 

But, I repeat, Carnival Corp is a business. 

Absolutely right. And I am a consumer. And now (even without the potential milestone dropping), I’m a consumer analyzing my vacation spending without loyalty to Princess. I know what I like (smaller ships, unique itineraries). I know that Princess offers neither of these. I have no doubt that Princess’s new target market will step up to fill in what we used to spend. And life goes on.  

[Ombud]

4 minutes ago, PescadoAmarillo said:

Absolutely right. And I am a consumer. And now (even without the potential milestone dropping), I’m a consumer analyzing my vacation spending without loyalty to Princess. I know what I like (smaller ships, unique itineraries). I know that Princess offers neither of these. I have no doubt that Princess’s new target market will step up to fill in what we used to spend. And life goes on.  

EXACTLY!! I used to joke that I spent more at Sbux then the grocery store (it was true) then it became less enjoyable so I now go elsewhere. 

 

I am less valuable to CCL than a newer customer as I spend less onboard which each subsequent cruise. 

 

(Booking my 41st cruise today)

Edited September 29, 2022 by Ombud

[triple7tahoe]

1 hour ago, Ombud said:

EXACTLY!! I used to joke that I spent more at Sbux then the grocery store (it was true) then it became less enjoyable so I now go elsewhere. 

 

I am less valuable to CCL than a newer customer as I spend less onboard which each subsequent cruise. 

 

(Booking my 41st cruise today)

Interesting that you mentioned Starbucks-I am a retired SBUX partner and just received an update from them. The new CEO wants to make the SBUX experience more about convenience rather than the "third place' (home, work and SBUX) theme.  Else where in this thread I saw someone mention each L&E Manager doing things in their own way--We got off the Emerald 10 days ago-That L&E Manager, somehow decided that my DW had more days that counted towards MTG than I do. Since I started with Princess about 20 years before my wife that does not sound possible. At the beginning of this year, I was nearing 1750 days and she had around 1300 days. She now has 1200 and I have 1150-No explanation  but weird 🙂

 

[wallyj]

4 hours ago, triple7tahoe said:

Interesting that you mentioned Starbucks-I am a retired SBUX partner and just received an update from them. The new CEO wants to make the SBUX experience more about convenience rather than the "third place' (home, work and SBUX) theme.  Else where in this thread I saw someone mention each L&E Manager doing things in their own way--We got off the Emerald 10 days ago-That L&E Manager, somehow decided that my DW had more days that counted towards MTG than I do. Since I started with Princess about 20 years before my wife that does not sound possible. At the beginning of this year, I was nearing 1750 days and she had around 1300 days. She now has 1200 and I have 1150-No explanation  but weird 🙂

 

 My guess to the difference in number of days could possibly be if you had P&O/Sitmar? days that were previously added, but are no longer in deciding MTG counts. 
 

Otherwise check your cruise history on Princess and it should have all your past sailings.

 

 

[paradiselivin1]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Kay S said:

Big ships full of families with lots (and lots) of little kids but without the "party drunks" problem. 

So, how do they make the money off of the kids that they make from us old farts? Especially springing for the new "Plus" programs ~ drink until you're crazy?? Princess needs the old people's money and gain nothing from a bunch of kids who are in the rooms at a reduced price and aren't buying the upgraded packages...

[Ombud]

30 minutes ago, paradiselivin1 said:

So, how do they make the money off of the kids that they make from us old farts? Especially springing for the new "Plus" programs ~ drink until you're crazy?? Princess needs the old people's money and gain nothing from a bunch of kids who are in the rooms at a reduced price and aren't buying the upgraded packages...

> clothes (RH Lauren & Lauren. Tons of jean versions onboard & they're selling well at $120 each). Notice how many more clothing stores are in the new ships (Discovery & Enchanted) and how sundries has been minimized? (Kids buy stuffies & clothes / Seniors buy sundries)

> jewelry (young adults -> 40s)

> teddy bears (there's a dz versions now)

> 3rd or 4th person in a room where there's no cost to PCL for the room but they're still paying full gratuities 

> buying soda pkgs or Premier upgrade & drinking only 1-2 sodas a day that costs PCL pennies per glass. Much MUCH higher profit margin. It's all about the profit margin

> parents unable to drink as much on the ➕ option bc they need to be awake. Elders can drink their allotment so lower profit margin on seniors

 

I'm not saying you personally aren't spending as much as before but I haven't bought jewelry onboard since my 10th cruise and only 2 auction pieces ever ---- booking my 40th so when I do the math / my 40s kids spend more per cruise than me

 

As to affordability: the 25yo has made more in the 1st 9 months of this year than I made in all of my final working year. I wasn't underpaid 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Ombud

[NownZen]

39 minutes ago, Ombud said:

> clothes (RH Lauren & Lauren. Tons of jean versions onboard & they're selling well at $120 each). Notice how many more clothing stores are in the new ships (Discovery & Enchanted) and how sundries has been minimized? (Kids buy stuffies & clothes / Seniors buy sundries)

> jewelry (young adults -> 40s)

> teddy bears (there's a dz versions now)

> 3rd or 4th person in a room where there's no cost to PCL for the room but they're still paying full gratuities 

> buying soda pkgs or Premier upgrade & drinking only 1-2 sodas a day that costs PCL pennies per glass. Much MUCH higher profit margin. It's all about the profit margin

> parents unable to drink as much on the ➕ option bc they need to be awake. Elders can drink their allotment so lower profit margin on seniors

 

I'm not saying you personally aren't spending as much as before but I haven't bought jewelry onboard since my 10th cruise and only 2 auction pieces ever ---- booking my 40th so when I do the math / my 40s kids spend more per cruise than me

 

As to affordability: the 25yo has made more in the 1st 9 months of this year than I made in all of my final working year. I wasn't underpaid 

 

 

 

 

This is a pretty good summary. My wife tends to buy a set of antiseasickness wrist bands (on every cruise). I might get a T shirt or two. We wander through the expensive stores wondering why people actually shop there. Although I did break down and get a down jacket that packages itself into a neck pillow, never mind that I never use neck pillows or down jackets. It was surprising when we got home and I found out that I had bought one on a previous cruise (just did not know it make into a neck pillow).

[Ombud]

24 minutes ago, NownZen said:

This is a pretty good summary. My wife tends to buy a set of antiseasickness wrist bands (on every cruise). I might get a T shirt or two. We wander through the expensive stores wondering why people actually shop there. Although I did break down and get a down jacket that packages itself into a neck pillow, never mind that I never use neck pillows or down jackets. It was surprising when we got home and I found out that I had bought one on a previous cruise (just did not know it make into a neck pillow).

I bought tweezers & toothpaste on my last cruise.  (2.49+3.00)-15%. 🤑

[beg3yrs]

11 hours ago, Ombud said:

I bought tweezers & toothpaste on my last cruise.  (2.49+3.00)-15%. 🤑

Thanks for that! Packing for a cruise to leave in three days ... would have forgotten the tweezers!

[caribill]

On the CCL Corp stock analysts call this morning it sort of was made official that loyal customers do not count anymore.

 

(This is for all the CCL Corp brands, not just Princess.)

 

They are doubling efforts to reach new-to-cruise passengers.

 

Past advertising focused on loyal guests. Current advertising is focused on attracting new cruisers.

 

(By the way, they also said that . Pricing is still “way too much of a value.” Too much of a discount from land vacations.)

[beg3yrs]

43 minutes ago, caribill said:

On the CCL Corp stock analysts call this morning it sort of was made official that loyal customers do not count anymore.

 

(This is for all the CCL Corp brands, not just Princess.)

 

They are doubling efforts to reach new-to-cruise passengers.

 

Past advertising focused on loyal guests. Current advertising is focused on attracting new cruisers.

.....

Thanks for the information. Your first sentence seems to be more of your interpretation of the third sentence rather than an overt statement by Carnival Corp.

To grow they need to increase the attraction of new customers and then make sure they are retained.

 

Personally I don't see increasing marketing to new customers is a statement that existing customers don't count anymore, rather that existing customers keep dying and have to be replaced! Preferably with the rate of replacement being higher that the rate of loss.

[JimmyVWine]

1 hour ago, caribill said:

On the CCL Corp stock analysts call this morning it sort of was made official that loyal customers do not count anymore.

Disney has made the same conclusion and there are many parallels between annual passholders there, and frequent cruisers here. For example, the multi-repeat visitor to WDW already owns all the Mouse Ears they need. They own the T-shirts, the hoodies and the housewares.  They go back to WDW over and over again to ride rides or go to festivals like Food and Wine or Flower and Garden.  The cotton candy and Mickey Ice Cream Bars don't interest them the way they do for the first-time visitor, generally speaking. (And we can't speak any way other than generally.) 

 

Mapping this over to the Elite passengers on a cruise, do they pay more for huge group tours run by PCL out of buses, or do they book smaller, sometimes less expensive, private tours run by vans?  And even for those who book excursions through PCL, what do you think the ratio is as compared to newbies?  Heck. Lots of loyal customers don't book excursions at all and instead skip the ports that they have been to 15 times and hang out on the ship spending no extra cash.  Are they as enthralled with buying their boarding photos, or the photos with the pirate, or their photos at formal night dinners as the new folks?  Or buying "gold by the inch" at the sale counter on the sea day?  The bottom line, (literally) is that the "been there, done that" crowd knows all the "hacks" and "secrets" to saving money on a cruise.  The cruise line tolerates those folks, but it doesn't love them.   

Edited September 30, 2022 by JimmyVWine

[LACruiser88]

20 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

The bottom line, (literally) is that the "been there, done that" crowd knows all the "hacks" and "secrets" to saving money on a cruise.  The cruise line tolerates those folks, but it doesn't love them. 

Very well said!

[beg3yrs]

Multiple points-of-view here regarding new versus repeat customers. Probably none of them completely correct or completely wrong either. Would be interesting to know the real data Carnival Corp / Princess has on the revenue generation of customers categorized this way.

[PacnGoNow]

My feelings are they need BOTH.

 

 The big loser for them since the restart from July 2021 till the end of 2022 is all the FCC that was and is, out there.

 

Next year’s profits should be much better.

 

They are not in a position to discount any of their cruisers, old or new.  
 

Also, if they do make big price increases, they won’t be attracting as many new cruisers either.

 

 

 

[Kay S]

57 minutes ago, PacnGoNow said:

 

 

 The big loser for them since the restart from July 2021 till the end of 2022 is all the FCC that was and is, out there.

 

 

 

 

 

My adieu to Princess is to spend their money. 🙂  As one of those "loyal" old timers, we were comfortable letting Princess keep our money on fully paid pre-covid cruise and were happy with all the additional FCC they pitched in.  Of course, we didn't see "new Princess" and the diminution of our status coming.  So here we are.  I have now done one fully paid short cruise (which was a Medallion nightmare) and have two more in the queue.  When the FCC is depleted, we're moving on.  Some of the all-inclusives are looking attractive, but we'll be happy with HAL (and occasionally Carnival) for shorter jaunts.  To me, at least, it's very sad what Princess has become.

[NownZen]

17 hours ago, Ombud said:

I bought tweezers & toothpaste on my last cruise.  (2.49+3.00)-15%. 🤑

We tried to buy some superglue to fix a broken watch band. They do not sell it (I guess too many opportunities for mischief) but they did have a large bottle in the back and glued the watch band for us. That is a handy feature I had not been aware of.

[NownZen]

4 hours ago, caribill said:

On the CCL Corp stock analysts call this morning it sort of was made official that loyal customers do not count anymore.

 

(By the way, they also said that . Pricing is still “way too much of a value.” Too much of a discount from land vacations.)

I am old enough to remember when people wanted to have Cadillacs. Many years ago, I saw a survey that said the average age of Cadillac buyers was increasing by a year per year (meaning no new blood coming in).  They have been trying to get a younger image but I still would not consider one. Princess is in the same situation if their clientele is aging. It is ok to have an older group as long as the average does not keep going up.

 

I worry about that last comment. There are lots of lines that do cater to the folks who are willing to spend more already.  We enjoy Princess for relaxation but will not go on the megaships. If the prices are anywhere near the same we will go on a small ship with Oceania or Azamara.

[partybarbie]

IMHO, the Carnival Corporation is stepping over a dollar to save a dime. The Milestone Recognitions aren't a significant financial drain to the Company. If they really wanted to save money, they would cut the champagne and gifts to the top three Most Traveled Passengers and keep the Milestone Recognitions, which cost them less, as there are fewer passengers celebrating Milestones (and we all have one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel anyway so we won't be celebrating for much longer).

 

The decline in perks alone are not enough for me to change cruise lines, but raising prices would. Prices usually rise with demand, but when your ships aren't sailing at full passenger capacity now, how will raising the prices help with that? I'm all for attracting new customers, but let's not forget that many of us loyal to line agreed to let Carnival Corporation keep our money and apply it to future cruises. I find it hard to believe that alienating those same customers now, in the hopes that you will attract new ones, will result in increased profits. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by partybarbie

[PescadoAmarillo]

2 hours ago, Kay S said:

When the FCC is depleted, we're moving on. 

DH has cruised 101 days on Princess post-COVID and there wasn’t a single day of it that he didn’t hear the same thing at least once, and often much often than that. He’s even heard it from the super duper grandest elite of the most traveled Princess passengers. Obviously, Princess has heard it too, and decided those guests are not worth retaining.   But they thank us for the extended use of our money!  😆

[caribill]

29 minutes ago, partybarbie said:

IMHO, the Carnival Corporation is stepping over a dollar to save a dime. The Milestone Recognitions aren't a significant financial drain to the Company. If they really wanted to save money, they would cut the champagne and gifts to the top three Most Traveled Passengers

 

The "Champagne" they give has less value than the cost of the bottle it is in. They already reduced the cost of the gifts by eliminating the glass emblem which depicted the cruise area (example Alaska) that the cruise was sailing.

 

29 minutes ago, partybarbie said:

 

Prices usually rise with demand, but when your ships aren't sailing at full passenger capacity now, how will raising the prices help with that?

 

Obviously Princess ships are not sailing at full capacity yet. And certainly the recent Princess sale in North America (balcony for the cost of an inside cabin) and the one in Europe (Mini-Suite for the cost of a deluxe balcony; Premier package for the cost of the Plus package) indicates price cutting, not increasing.

 

But they did say two things that apply corporate wide :

a) "Cumulative advance bookings for full year 2023 are slightly above the historical average and at considerably higher prices, as compared to 2019 sailings, normalized for FCCs."

b) "we have been working to increase near-term occupancy in part by using limited promotions and opaque channels, available only to a select group of people to protect overall price integrity for 2023"

[caribill]

6 hours ago, beg3yrs said:

Thanks for the information. Your first sentence seems to be more of your interpretation of the third sentence rather than an overt statement by Carnival Corp.

To grow they need to increase the attraction of new customers and then make sure they are retained.

 

Personally I don't see increasing marketing to new customers is a statement that existing customers don't count anymore, rather that existing customers keep dying and have to be replaced! Preferably with the rate of replacement being higher that the rate of loss.

 

What they said: "we are redoubling efforts to attract new-to-cruise guests. About one-third of our guests have historically been new to cruise."

 

To me that says they want more than 1/3 of the passengers to be new-to-cruise (NTC). That would mean having less than 2/3 of the passengers being repeat passengers. To me that says repeat passengers do not count as much any more.

 

Since they also expect the a number of NTC passengers to cruise again with Princess while wanting less overall repeat passengers, my conclusion is they want less long time Princess customers.