Nostalgic cruise traditions being phased out

[CTGirl74]

I've only been on two cruise, both of which were in 2013, so I can't comment on many of those items. I do remember the printed daily paper, though, and I would miss that. My next cruise is October 2023, so I'll be curious to see what other changes are made by then.

 

My parents went on their one and only cruise (Celebrity to Bermuda) probably 30 years ago. I remember then telling me all about it, and many of the items mentioned were present: the midnight buffets, and endless food in general; the ice sculptures; traditional dining; Captain's dinner; etc. The food was all my mom could talk about. LOL

[Ilovesailaway]

Not listed but I miss Filipino rock bands.

[shipgeeks]

52 minutes ago, Ilovesailaway said:

Not listed but I miss Filipino rock bands.

Are they gone?  The Centrum band recently on Enchantment was Indonesian; we had several Filipino bands not all that long ago.

[DirtyDawg]

On 10/15/2022 at 2:33 PM, Heidi13 said:

 

You clearly don't understand the objective of the Muster Drill, as they aren't to teach pax how to abandon ship, or even how to get to the survival craft.

 

Pax Learning - the Muster Drill is to teach pax to identify the ship's General Emergency Signal (GES) and on hearing that signal to go to their "Assembly Station", following the directions of the crew stairway and other guides. This gets all pax mustered and accounted for. In a real emergency pax can remain at the Assembly Stations for many, many hours, even over 24 hrs. Pax heard the signal and went to the Assembly Stations, so YES, there was learning achieved.

 

Crew Learning - the crew need experience in both herding the mass of humanity and establishing/maintaining communications, so they are aware of any areas of the ship that are involved in the emergency, and to direct the pax via alternative routes. These are critical skills and the Muster Drills were the only realistic opportunity to train the crew. They can train with other crew, but the numbers are smaller, and the behaviors experienced are not consistent with those found during drills. These drills provided the crew with invaluable experience, so YES, again there was most definitely learning achieved.

 

The original Muster Drills provided both these learning objectives, the current ones do not.

Thanks for explaining this. But it begs the question; if a significant part of the old muster Drill is for crew training shouldn't I be able to charge the cruise line for my time that I contribute to crew training? For example, if 50% of the muster drill is for me, as a cruiser, and 50% is for the crew, I could charge 50% of my usual charge out rate that I charge my consulting clients. Between Mrs. Dawg and I, $500 in OBC should cover it for both of us.  Not much to ask to help train the crew. 

[rkacruiser]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:52 PM, K32682 said:

If the actual purpose of the in-person muster drill is to train the crew then I won't miss them. I'm not inclined to stand around in a life jacket to help the crew learn how to manage a crowd

 

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with your thinking.  One does not well learn how to do a job until one does the job.  (Examples:  Medical Interns, Student Teachers. apprentices in the Trades.)  

[rkacruiser]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:52 PM, K32682 said:

If the actual purpose of the in-person muster drill is to train the crew then I won't miss them. I'm not inclined to stand around in a life jacket to help the crew learn how to manage a crowd

 

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with your thinking.  One does not well learn how to do a job until one does the job.  (Examples:  Medical Interns, Student Teachers. apprentices in the Trades.)  

[BruceMuzz]

I really miss:

Well dressed passengers

Passengers with good manners

Passengers who can actually afford to be on the cruise

Passengers who shine their shoes more than once per year

Passengers who speak more than English and English Louder

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

Thanks for explaining this. But it begs the question; if a significant part of the old muster Drill is for crew training shouldn't I be able to charge the cruise line for my time that I contribute to crew training? For example, if 50% of the muster drill is for me, as a cruiser, and 50% is for the crew, I could charge 50% of my usual charge out rate that I charge my consulting clients. Between Mrs. Dawg and I, $500 in OBC should cover it for both of us.  Not much to ask to help train the crew. 

 

Not a problem; however, in a real emergency when you need directions from the crew, in accordance with your fee for service model, you will need to pay to receive directions from the crew for a safe route to the Assembly Stations. The stairway guides will all be carrying card readers, so no cash is required.

 

I suggest you pay, as the option of opening the wrong FSD could be fatal. 

 

BTW - the cost would be significantly more than your $500 OBC. Since with your model, training requires a fee, you will also be charged should you require assistance with donning your lifejacket and then additional training on how to go to the Survival Craft.

[navybankerteacher]

Aside from the many traditional bits (some of which I never saw as important), what I miss is the sense of community and specialness which seemed to exist on a cruise.  People used to be on their best behavior, perhaps because they recognized that sharing a ship with others made them part of a community different from their “at home” environment.  They were willing to comply with certain standards of dress (and conduct)  - which now seem to violate their “MY VACATION, MY RULES” mind set.

 

 

Cruising had to change - to accommodate the changing population of cruisers.

[navybankerteacher]

38 minutes ago, BruceMuzz said:

I really miss:

Well dressed passengers

Passengers with good manners

Passengers who can actually afford to be on the cruise

Passengers who shine their shoes more than once per year

Passengers who speak more than English and English Louder

You are courting the wrath of the new generation of cruisers.

[navybankerteacher]

19 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Not a problem; however, in a real emergency when you need directions from the crew, in accordance with your fee for service model, you will need to pay to receive directions from the crew for a safe route …

 

BTW - the cost would be significantly more than your $500 OBC. Since with your model, training requires a fee, you will also be charged should you require assistance with donning your lifejacket and then additional training on how to go to the Survival Craft.

This reminds me of a wonderful cartoon - a passenger on the sloping deck of a ship in obvious distress is arguing with a sneering steward who is clutching a dozen or so life preservers : “$50 dollars — that’s outrageous - they’re going for $20 down on B Deck!”.

[DirtyDawg]

8 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Not a problem; however, in a real emergency when you need directions from the crew, in accordance with your fee for service model, you will need to pay to receive directions from the crew for a safe route to the Assembly Stations. The stairway guides will all be carrying card readers, so no cash is required.

 

I suggest you pay, as the option of opening the wrong FSD could be fatal. 

 

BTW - the cost would be significantly more than your $500 OBC. Since with your model, training requires a fee, you will also be charged should you require assistance with donning your lifejacket and then additional training on how to go to the Survival Craft.

 

Thanks for the time you took responding to my post, however I was not auguring for a fee for service model. I was making the point that, to the degree the old muster drills, were exclusively for crew training, shouldn't the participants be paid for their time and contribution to that training? Of course, that part of the Muster drill that, again would be exclusively for crew training might be very small which might render any compensation being immaterial. You and @chengkp75 would know this better than any one of us. Perhaps I'm too sensitive about this issue following my move from the investment industry, where clients gladly paid for my time and expertise, to the academic field where both students and Administration routinely expect us to give our time freely to seemingly endless add-on projects well beyond those we actually get paid for. 🙂

 

Now, if the old cruise contract stated that customers, by purchasing cruise fare, agreed to give up their time for the crew training then my question is moot. Unfortunately, I don't have one of those lying around. But I'm sure some folks around here would have one around and could comment. 

 

Have a great day. 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by DirtyDawg

[John Bull]

8 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The stairway guides will all be carrying card readers, so no cash is required.

 

 

Rather than requiring payment up-front the passenger should be invoiced for the crew's assistance, payable within 28 days of the sinking.

That would give the crew more incentive to ensure the passenger's survival.

"No rescue, no fee""

 

Suggested by a friend  😉

 

JB 😄

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

I was making the point that, to the degree the old muster drills, were exclusively for crew training, shouldn't the participants be paid for their time and contribution to that training?

And, as Andy has said, better than I, that there is an amount of passenger training involved as well, basically to understand the signal and what to do when it sounds, and also the "show up, shut up, listen up" that is what is required of passengers.

 

19 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

Of course, that part of the Muster drill that, again would be exclusively for crew training might be very small which might render any compensation being immaterial.

The part of the muster drill that involves crew training, also requires passenger input, because as I've said, that training is how to handle unruly and unwilling passengers.

 

Do you know that crew drills and training (and there is additional training that takes place for nearly every crew member outside of the formal weekly drill), if it occurs outside of the crew member's normal work hours, are unpaid?  So, while you may consider that you are due compensation for training the crew, what about compensation for the crew training to save your life?

23 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

Now, if the old cruise contract stated that customers, by purchasing cruise fare, agreed to give up their time for the crew training then my question is moot.

From Carnival's ticket contract:

 

"Guests must attend the mandatory safety briefing at the commencement of the cruise and any subsequent briefing ordered by the ship’s officer during the cruise."

 

"Guest agrees during the course of the voyage to follow the directions of the ship’s Master, or his authorized officer"

[DirtyDawg]

9 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

From Carnival's ticket contract:

 

"Guests must attend the mandatory safety briefing at the commencement of the cruise and any subsequent briefing ordered by the ship’s officer during the cruise."

 

"Guest agrees during the course of the voyage to follow the directions of the ship’s Master, or his authorized officer"

Thanks for posting this. My original question has been answered. 

 

And yes I knew the crew received other training but I did not know that training was unpaid. Given this industry, unfortunately I am not surprized about this. 

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

Given this industry, unfortunately I am not surprized about this.

This is universal across the maritime industry, not just cruise ships, and for every one of the 1.6 million mariners around the world.  Even on US flag vessels, where nearly everyone is unionized, drills and training are unpaid.  As it should be.  This is something that transcends pay, and something that most people, even experienced cruisers don't understand, that the ship is your universe when out at sea, and if there is a fire, you can't just walk out of the building and let someone else deal with it, or just let the building burn, there is virtually no place to go other than the ship.  Lifeboats and life rafts are there as a absolute last resort, as you are far more likely to perish in one of them than you are in a disabled ship.

 

Whenever I was required to take training, even that required by law to retain my job, at shoreside facilities, it was always on my dime.  And, the only time I begrudged it was when I had to take a 40 hour firefighting course 6 months prior to my retirement, that was valid for 5 years.

Edited October 17, 2022 by chengkp75

[DirtyDawg]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

This is universal across the maritime industry, not just cruise ships, and for every one of the 1.6 million mariners around the world.  Even on US flag vessels, where nearly everyone is unionized, drills and training are unpaid.  As it should be.  This is something that transcends pay, and something that most people, even experienced cruisers don't understand, that the ship is your universe when out at sea, and if there is a fire, you can't just walk out of the building and let someone else deal with it, or just let the building burn, there is virtually no place to go other than the ship.  Lifeboats and life rafts are there as a absolute last resort, as you are far more likely to perish in one of them than you are in a disabled ship.

How many hours per year do mariners do the unpaid drills and training? 

 

For example in my industry I might do 10 hours of unpaid mandatory training for my employer  per year plus another 30 hours of mandatory professional development training for my professional designation.  

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

How many hours per year do mariners do the unpaid drills and training? 

 

For example in my industry I might do 10 hours of unpaid mandatory training for my employer  per year plus another 30 hours of mandatory professional development training for my professional designation.  

A lot of that depends on what schedule the mariner is working.  Ships hold weekly fire and boat drills.  If a deck or engine crew member is working the 8-12 or 4-8 watches (they work two 4 hour watches during those hours day and night), then if the fire and boat drill is held at 1300 hours, they have to get up from either sleeping or resting, and partake in the drill.  The lucky 12-4 watch would have the drill during working hours.  That would mean (for working 8 months a year) 2-3 hours per drill times 32 times a year, for 60-100 hours unpaid training/drills per year.  On cruise ships, some crew work nights (1800-0600), so every drill comes in the middle of their sleep period.  Many hotel staff work "split shifts" (a few hours in the morning, and then a few hours in the evening) with a rest period in between, and if the training or drill is scheduled during their rest period, then they are again going to have 60-100 hours a year of unpaid training/drills.  And, on cruise ships, the training is typically scheduled so as not to interfere with the crew member's working hours, to minimize disruption of guest services.  Training on cruise ships usually adds another hour per week.  I would say that cruise ship crew do about 60-80 hours, on average, of unpaid training/drills per year.

 

Shoreside training will depend on the crew member's rating, with officers requiring more hours than ratings.  A minimum of 40 hours every 5 years, up to 200 hours every 5 years, along with any required training for advancement.

[Mary229]

I miss the dining room theatrics from the parade of baked Alaska to the flaming jubilee to the yum yum man.  I miss the crew shows which may or may not come back.  I miss the poolside bbqs with local talent performing poolside.  I miss dockside welcoming/departing entertainment which still exists but is not as frequent. 

I miss in depth port lectures and expert lectures

 

I am comfortable with digital life and the chocolates are not as good as they were anyway.  I never liked towel animals or dance production shows so if those go I won’t be sad.  I like having the freedom to decide who I dine with. 

[weltek]

Poolside bbqs are the only thing I really miss. I almost responded that I miss the chocolate buffets, but there was SO MUCH WASTE and effort is better spent elsewhere. It was just something to look forward to for me, but the reality is that I only ate a few things and when they were midnight chocolate buffets, eating a bunch of chocolate at midnight just made me feel gross.

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I miss the dining room theatrics from the parade of baked Alaska to the flaming jubilee to the yum yum man.  I miss the crew shows which may or may not come back.  I miss the poolside bbqs with local talent performing poolside.  I miss dockside welcoming/departing entertainment which still exists but is not as frequent. 

I miss in depth port lectures and expert lectures

 

I am comfortable with digital life and the chocolates are not as good as they were anyway.  I never liked towel animals or dance production shows so if those go I won’t be sad.  I like having the freedom to decide who I dine with. 

 

The poolside BBQ's were terrific.  I had all but forgot about those.   

 

I loved the crew talent shows (usually even better when the cruise director didn't participate).  Some of those folks were very talented.  

[ruready]

Embarkation lunch with visitors.  I have not seen that in a bit, but maybe it is just the cruises I have been post initial pandemic. 

[whogo]

11 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Even on US flag vessels, where nearly everyone is unionized, drills and training are unpaid.

I should have had my employees punch out as they left the building during fire drills.

[navybankerteacher]

12 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

Thanks for posting this. My original question has been answered. 

 

And yes I knew the crew received other training but I did not know that training was unpaid. Given this industry, unfortunately I am not surprized about this. 

Such training is NOT unpaid -- it is simply part of the deal. No, there is not an extra check given for each training session attended, but any member of any ship's company is presumed to be required to maintain and hone necessary skills.

[DirtyDawg]

14 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Such training is NOT unpaid -- it is simply part of the deal. No, there is not an extra check given for each training session attended, but any member of any ship's company is presumed to be required to maintain and hone necessary skills.

I understand your position here but I'll just sit back and read what  @chengkp75 and @Heidi13 say about unpaid vs. 'simply part of the deal' training.