Nostalgic cruise traditions being phased out

[GUT2407]

Being escorted to our cabin on boarding.

[Heidi13]

18 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

I understand your position here but I'll just sit back and read what  @chengkp75 and @Heidi13 say about unpaid vs. 'simply part of the deal' training. 

 

 

Similar to the Chief, when deep sea, we did not get paid to attend any drills. As a watchkeeper, I also lost many hours of sleep.

 

However, when I moved to the West Coast, all the officers and crew received overtime for attending the drills. Being non-union, I was the only one that didn't get paid extra. Must admit, when I left P&O, it was a major surprise that crew were paid to attend drills.

[Aquahound]

23 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

Being escorted to our cabin on boarding.

I was thinking that same thing. That used to be a nice touch. 

[GUT2407]

1 minute ago, Aquahound said:

I was thinking that same thing. That used to be a nice touch. 

And back in the days when you didn’t know your cabin before boarding it was a bit like a lucky dip.

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Such training is NOT unpaid -- it is simply part of the deal. No, there is not an extra check given for each training session attended, but any member of any ship's company is presumed to be required to maintain and hone necessary skills.

 

9 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

I understand your position here but I'll just sit back and read what  @chengkp75 and @Heidi13 say about unpaid vs. 'simply part of the deal' training. 

What navybankerteacher says is correct, it is something that is inherently understood by all mariners, just as missing family milestones, holidays, births and deaths are inherently understood to be part of a mariner's life.  However, cruise ship crew training, particularly for the vast majority of crew, who are assigned duties related to the passenger muster, goes beyond what normal mariners expect.  You accept that you need to train and practice to save your own life and the life of your fellow crew (who are trained to help you as well), but having to place yourself in harm's way for people who don't give a fig about you, or would lift a finger to help you, is something else.  Given a lot of passengers' attitude towards the safety drills and the crew in general, it would not surprise me for crew to feel "save the ship, the hell with the passengers" or "why should I give up my time for these ungrateful people".  That, of course, is not right, but it is human nature.  And, as I've said many times, until there is a real emergency, regardless of how much and how well you've trained, there is no way of telling whether an individual will run into the fire or away from it.

[DirtyDawg]

16 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Given a lot of passengers' attitude towards the safety drills and the crew in general, it would not surprise me for crew to feel "save the ship, the hell with the passengers" or "why should I give up my time for these ungrateful people".  That, of course, is not right, but it is human nature.  

Now that I am back in the classroom at the university and dealing, face to face, with my students once again I can understand where those feelings might come from. It might be less than two months into the semester but I already know which students I'd help in an emergency and which ones ....  🤔well let's just say ....  🤔 .... my lousy back and arthritic knees might, just might, prevent me from helping. 😉

[K32682]

On 10/16/2022 at 5:22 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

Respectfully, I strongly disagree with your thinking.  One does not well learn how to do a job until one does the job.  (Examples:  Medical Interns, Student Teachers. apprentices in the Trades.)  

 

Muster drills are mandatory. Passengers have no choice but to attend. Airlines meanwhile manage to conduct evacuation practice without needing the participation of their paying customers. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by K32682

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

Muster drills are mandatory. Passengers have no choice but to attend. Airlines meanwhile manage to conduct evacuation practice without needing the participation of their paying customers. 

 

 

The marine industry is no different from the airline industry.

 

How many times do the Chief and I have to explain the Muster Drill has NOTHING to do with abandoning ship, or even teaching you how to get to the survival craft. The Muster Drill is NOT evacuation practice, never has been. As a passenger, you learn the General Emergency Signal and on hearing the GES, go to your Assembly Station, following the directions of the crew. You also get a demo on how to don a lifejacket, similar to the airlines.

 

In the airline industry, you are effectively at the Assembly Station continuously, when sitting in your seat, so you sit and watch/listen to the crew's safety briefing.

 

In the marine industry, when operating the survival craft, whether that is for drills or timed evacuation trials, the passengers are NOT involved. No different than the airlines. For drills, only crew members participate. When completing timed evacuation trials of survival craft, we hire volunteers that must represent a cross section of humanity. Yes, I have planned and managed a number of these trials. 

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

Muster drills are mandatory. Passengers have no choice but to attend. Airlines meanwhile manage to conduct evacuation practice without needing the participation of their paying customers. 

 

It would seem that the airlines would have a much easier time accounting for where all the passengers are and having them together.

[ontheweb]

35 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The marine industry is no different from the airline industry.

 

How many times do the Chief and I have to explain the Muster Drill has NOTHING to do with abandoning ship, or even teaching you how to get to the survival craft. The Muster Drill is NOT evacuation practice, never has been. As a passenger, you learn the General Emergency Signal and on hearing the GES, go to your Assembly Station, following the directions of the crew. You also get a demo on how to don a lifejacket, similar to the airlines.

 

In the airline industry, you are effectively at the Assembly Station continuously, when sitting in your seat, so you sit and watch/listen to the crew's safety briefing.

 

In the marine industry, when operating the survival craft, whether that is for drills or timed evacuation trials, the passengers are NOT involved. No different than the airlines. For drills, only crew members participate. When completing timed evacuation trials of survival craft, we hire volunteers that must represent a cross section of humanity. Yes, I have planned and managed a number of these trials. 

It does not seem to matter how often you two explain this, there are those who don't want to listen. But please know that there are also some of us who truly appreciate what the two of you contribute.

[Mum2Mercury]

5 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

Now that I am back in the classroom at the university and dealing, face to face, with my students once again I can understand where those feelings might come from. It might be less than two months into the semester but I already know which students I'd help in an emergency and which ones ....  🤔well let's just say ....  🤔 .... my lousy back and arthritic knees might, just might, prevent me from helping. 😉

As a fellow teacher, I also think I could predict with pretty good accuracy which of my students would listen and follow directions -- and which ones would run wildly on their own in an emergency, to their detriment and that of others.  

[Mum2Mercury]

46 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

How many times do the Chief and I have to explain the Muster Drill has NOTHING to do with abandoning ship ...

Well, it is Step One in abandoning ship.  It's getting in line to abandon ship -- or, maybe more accurately, learning WHERE to line up, should the worst become necessary -- but I understand what you're saying: 

- The muster drill doesn't teach passengers how to abandon ship.  It really just divides passengers into "manageable bites" across the ship and assigns them to an emergency spot.  

- Even if passengers were forced to go to their muster stations "for real", they likely would not end up abandoning ship.  Multiple things would have to go wrong before passengers would be forced into that unhappy necessity.  

Edited October 18, 2022 by Mum2Mercury

[ldubs]

43 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The marine industry is no different from the airline industry.

 

How many times do the Chief and I have to explain the Muster Drill has NOTHING to do with abandoning ship, or even teaching you how to get to the survival craft. The Muster Drill is NOT evacuation practice, never has been. As a passenger, you learn the General Emergency Signal and on hearing the GES, go to your Assembly Station, following the directions of the crew. You also get a demo on how to don a lifejacket, similar to the airlines.

 

In the airline industry, you are effectively at the Assembly Station continuously, when sitting in your seat, so you sit and watch/listen to the crew's safety briefing.

 

In the marine industry, when operating the survival craft, whether that is for drills or timed evacuation trials, the passengers are NOT involved. No different than the airlines. For drills, only crew members participate. When completing timed evacuation trials of survival craft, we hire volunteers that must represent a cross section of humanity. Yes, I have planned and managed a number of these trials. 

 

I'm looking at the comment about the muster drill having nothing to do with abandoning ship.   Isn't mustering passengers in a real emergency a critical part should an abandon ship happen?   Probably reading the comments wrong (been doing that a lot lately).  

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

It would seem that the airlines would have a much easier time accounting for where all the passengers are and having them together.

How many times have you heard over the plane's PA, while still at the departure gate:  "all passengers take their seats", and then an airline employee comes down the aisle and counts heads?  Sounds like a "muster drill" to me.

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Well, it is Step One in abandoning ship.  It's getting in line to abandon ship -- or, maybe more accurately, learning WHERE to line up, should abandoning ship become necessary -- but I understand what you're saying: 

- The muster drill doesn't teach passengers how to abandon ship. 

- Even if passengers were forced to go to their muster stations "for real", they likely would not end up abandoning ship.  Multiple things would have to go wrong before passengers would be forced into that unhappy necessity.  

Your second bullet point argues against your statement that muster is "step one in abandoning ship".  

 

Muster is about accountability.  Period. Many times there have been fires on ships where the Captain has had no intention of abandoning ship, but the muster provides him with an accurate count of passengers, and a knowledge of who, and very likely where, to look for.  The Star Princess is a classic example of how the passengers were held at muster for long hours, but due to the widespread smoke from the fire, it allowed the crew to know who was missing.  The Captain never had a thought about abandoning ship.  Sometimes passengers are called to muster stations due to a reported man overboard, just so accountability can be obtained.  It's not "lining up to abandon ship", it is about getting you out of the current emergency, say a fire, but has nothing to do with a future emergency like the fire getting out of control and having to abandon ship.

 

And, probably a better lesson to learn from a muster drill is not so much "where to go", but how to get there from where I am now.  This is a "mental drill" I've proposed here on CC to follow during muster drill.  Think of a place on the ship where you have spent time.  Then think of the path from that spot to the muster location.  Then impose a fire between the two, and think of how to still get to the muster location going around the fire.  This is the greatest lesson to take away from a muster drill.

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm looking at the comment about the muster drill having nothing to do with abandoning ship.   Isn't mustering passengers in a real emergency a critical part should an abandon ship happen?   Probably reading the comments wrong (been doing that a lot lately).  

The muster drill has just as much to do with a fire, a man overboard, or an environmental hazard as with abandoning.  Muster is about accountability, whatever the emergency.  Having untrained people moved to known, controllable locations, where they can be counted, is what the muster is all about.  Yes, a muster is critical to an abandonment, but it is just as critical to any other emergency, and should be considered a separate function from abandoning ship.

 

Look at a fire onboard.  Many fires are dealt with using the "Code Bravo" call, where only the fire and emergency teams respond.  Then there are fires where the On Scene Commander recommends to the Captain, and he/she agrees, that the fire is large enough that an accounting of passengers, and getting them out of the way of emergency teams is recommended, and passengers will be called to muster.  The On Scene and the Captain know that the likelihood of abandoning ship at this point is miniscule, but need to get a pax count.  Finally, there are the fires that get away from the second example, and there is no hope for the ship, or the fire has spread so widely that it is difficult to keep the vast number of passengers onboard, so the Captain signals for the passengers to leave the ship.  As I've said, there are hundreds of instances where the muster was called when no though whatsoever was given to abandoning ship, it was for accountability.

[ldubs]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The muster drill has just as much to do with a fire, a man overboard, or an environmental hazard as with abandoning.  Muster is about accountability, whatever the emergency.  Having untrained people moved to known, controllable locations, where they can be counted, is what the muster is all about.  Yes, a muster is critical to an abandonment, but it is just as critical to any other emergency, and should be considered a separate function from abandoning ship.

 

Look at a fire onboard.  Many fires are dealt with using the "Code Bravo" call, where only the fire and emergency teams respond.  Then there are fires where the On Scene Commander recommends to the Captain, and he/she agrees, that the fire is large enough that an accounting of passengers, and getting them out of the way of emergency teams is recommended, and passengers will be called to muster.  The On Scene and the Captain know that the likelihood of abandoning ship at this point is miniscule, but need to get a pax count.  Finally, there are the fires that get away from the second example, and there is no hope for the ship, or the fire has spread so widely that it is difficult to keep the vast number of passengers onboard, so the Captain signals for the passengers to leave the ship.  As I've said, there are hundreds of instances where the muster was called when no though whatsoever was given to abandoning ship, it was for accountability.

 

Thanks.  I hope my question didn't imply an abandon ship would be the only reason for a passenger muster.  

[Heidi13]

29 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Well, it is Step One in abandoning ship.  It's getting in line to abandon ship -- or, maybe more accurately, learning WHERE to line up, should the worst become necessary -- but I understand what you're saying: 

- The muster drill doesn't teach passengers how to abandon ship.  It really just divides passengers into "manageable bites" across the ship and assigns them to an emergency spot.  

- Even if passengers were forced to go to their muster stations "for real", they likely would not end up abandoning ship.  Multiple things would have to go wrong before passengers would be forced into that unhappy necessity.  

 

As a non-mariner, you may consider that sounding the General Emergency Signal and having the pax muster in the Assembly Stations, is step 1 of abandon ship. However, as the Chief and I have explained numerous times, going to the Assembly Stations places pax in safe areas that have sufficient structural fire protection to keep them safe, and it provides an opportunity for the crew to muster, count and most importantly identify if any pax are missing.

 

With 28 years as a Master on Ro/Pax, when I sounded GES, I can assure you that this was not step 1 in abandoning ship. At that time, unless the ship had a catastrophic failure and was in imminent danger of sinking, with no beaching possible, abandon ship definitely wasn't on the agenda. It was to ensure my pax were accounted for and were in a safe environment, while the crew dealt with the emergency.

 

Yes, the crew were preparing the Survival Craft, but that is a regulatory requirement - doesn't mean we intended to use them. You are correct that multiple things would go wrong before I issued the command to start preparing pax in the Assembly Stations, for a potential evacuation. At this point, the Assembly Station crew will move to step 1 in a possible abandon ship, which could include splitting pax into groups to fill a survival craft.

 

In the marine industry, one of the first things you learn is the ship is the best lifeboat.

 

 

[Heidi13]

45 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm looking at the comment about the muster drill having nothing to do with abandoning ship.   Isn't mustering passengers in a real emergency a critical part should an abandon ship happen?   Probably reading the comments wrong (been doing that a lot lately).  

 

See responses from both the Chief & I

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Thanks.  I hope my question didn't imply an abandon ship would be the only reason for a passenger muster.  

Fully understood.  Just making the point that the muster is a separate "emergency situation" from an abandonment.  Probably too fine a distinction for those who haven't done thousands of these drills, and some actual emergencies.  Plus, the number of times passengers are actually called to muster stations is so low that it easily gets conflated with abandon ship.  And, actually, when/if the Captain decides to have the passengers loaded into the boats, and leave the ship, that is not "abandon ship".  All crew members will remain at their general emergency stations (fighting the fire or whatever) until after the passengers and all boats are away, and then if the Captain then decides, then the abandon ship signal will be sounded, and the crew will move to their abandon ship stations, which are generally under the boats, so not enough room for both passenger and crew to be at abandon ship stations at the same time.  This was another of the failures of the Concordia disaster, Schettino never sounded the muster signal, but gave the abandon ship announcement when passengers were still on the ship.

[Aquahound]

6 hours ago, K32682 said:

 

Muster drills are mandatory. Passengers have no choice but to attend. Airlines meanwhile manage to conduct evacuation practice without needing the participation of their paying customers. 

 

 

I'm truly baffled by this statement.  

[rkacruiser]

On 10/16/2022 at 10:32 PM, Heidi13 said:

Since with your model, training requires a fee, you will also be charged should you require assistance with donning your lifejacket and then additional training on how to go to the Survival Craft.

 

Will the charge include a bottle of wine and canapes?  🤣

 

On 10/17/2022 at 7:21 AM, chengkp75 said:

that there is an amount of passenger training involved as well, basically to understand the signal and what to do when it sounds, and also the "show up, shut up, listen up" that is what is required of passengers.

 

Perhaps retired Junior High/Middle School teachers could be employed to conduct Muster Drills?  🤣

 

On 10/17/2022 at 2:24 PM, ldubs said:

 

The poolside BBQ's were terrific.  I had all but forgot about those.   

 

I loved the crew talent shows (usually even better when the cruise director didn't participate).  Some of those folks were very talented.  

 

Agree.  The Crew Shows are always enjoyable, even though it is the same one type that I have seen umpteen times.  On HAL on Christmas Eve, their International Chorus that sings Christmas songs is simply wonderful.  

 

On 10/17/2022 at 10:34 AM, Mary229 said:

I miss dockside welcoming/departing entertainment which still exists but is not as frequent. 

 

Agree.  Some of that entertainment greatly enhanced my cruise and made such a favorable impression of the Port.  Examples:  the Japanese Drum Assembly on the roof of the pier as the Volendam was docking in Tokyo that had been preceded by a fire boat spray welcome and repeated helicopter passes over the ship.  Sailing from Aloha Tower, Hawaiian music playing as the ship pulls away from the pier and, on one sailing, the CD and the main female vocalist on the pier singing the Hawaiian Wedding Song with the music group as the departure whistle was sounding and then watching them rushing to the gangway.  

[rkacruiser]

On 10/16/2022 at 10:32 PM, Heidi13 said:

Since with your model, training requires a fee, you will also be charged should you require assistance with donning your lifejacket and then additional training on how to go to the Survival Craft.

 

Will the charge include a bottle of wine and canapes?  🤣

 

On 10/17/2022 at 7:21 AM, chengkp75 said:

that there is an amount of passenger training involved as well, basically to understand the signal and what to do when it sounds, and also the "show up, shut up, listen up" that is what is required of passengers.

 

Perhaps retired Junior High/Middle School teachers could be employed to conduct Muster Drills?  🤣

 

On 10/17/2022 at 2:24 PM, ldubs said:

 

The poolside BBQ's were terrific.  I had all but forgot about those.   

 

I loved the crew talent shows (usually even better when the cruise director didn't participate).  Some of those folks were very talented.  

 

Agree.  The Crew Shows are always enjoyable, even though it is the same one type that I have seen umpteen times.  On HAL on Christmas Eve, their International Chorus that sings Christmas songs is simply wonderful.  

 

On 10/17/2022 at 10:34 AM, Mary229 said:

I miss dockside welcoming/departing entertainment which still exists but is not as frequent. 

 

Agree.  Some of that entertainment greatly enhanced my cruise and made such a favorable impression of the Port.  Examples:  the Japanese Drum Assembly on the roof of the pier as the Volendam was docking in Tokyo that had been preceded by a fire boat spray welcome and repeated helicopter passes over the ship.  Sailing from Aloha Tower, Hawaiian music playing as the ship pulls away from the pier and, on one sailing, the CD and the main female vocalist on the pier singing the Hawaiian Wedding Song with the music group as the departure whistle was sounding and then watching them rushing to the gangway.  

[Ferry_Watcher]

At Seattle's Pier 91 pre pandemic, there use to be a senior longshore guy standing on the dock that would pull out his saxophone and play as the ship sailed away.  Definitely cool to see/hear.

[Aquahound]

14 minutes ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

At Seattle's Pier 91 pre pandemic, there use to be a senior longshore guy standing on the dock that would pull out his saxophone and play as the ship sailed away.  Definitely cool to see/hear.

 

I remember that guy!  White beard, right?