PVSA Confusion

[Steelers36]

6 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Because it starts in US and ends in Canada. PVSA does not apply.

My wanna-be-lawyer brain wants to say that the PVSA is always applicable to foreign flagged ships calling in the USA, but each individual voyage involved may or may not have a restriction associated or require meeting some provision in the Act.  Start USA/End Canada or Start Canada/End USA does not require the ship to meet any provisions in the Act (in terms of foreign ports - be they distant or near).

 

😉

[cr8tiv1]

12 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

My wanna-be-lawyer brain wants to say that the PVSA is always applicable to foreign flagged ships calling in the USA, but each individual voyage involved may or may not have a restriction associated or require meeting some provision in the Act.  Start USA/End Canada or Start Canada/End USA does not require the ship to meet any provisions in the Act (in terms of foreign ports - be they distant or near).

 

😉

While we are at it….let’s throw in the Jones Act (cargo) AND, the fact that foreign airlines are not allowed to fly between US cities (don’t know the name of that law),   Think about that one!  

[JRG]

40 minutes ago, kiwimum said:

Years ago we travelled back and forth to Hawaii on the Celebrity Solstice from San Diego to Hawaii.   Check in was at a hotel in San Diego, boarded buses and we transferred to Ensenada to board the ship.  Similar on boarding in Hawaii, disembark in Ensenada, bus to San Diego.   Everyone with the exception of ships company was required to bus transfer to San Diego (Casino, Art, Spa, shops staff included).   Southbound transfer was okay with the exception of the buses that got lost.  Northbound was horrendous because of the border crossingThel n.  The ship dead headed to San Diego to board the next cruise as it was not from one US port to another.

 

Bolding is mine.   What is not boldly stated here is that cruisers are being re-directed to a Country which is dangerously classified by our State Department,   for the sole purpose of avoiding what is essentially a 'fining structure' designed to support some aspects of cabotage.

 

Thank You United States for your Adoptive Interpretations of the law which endangers US citizens and citizens from other countries not to mention the fact that is costing us in the wallet and we are losing the last day of the cruise or most of it to satisfy this law.

 

The needs to amend the PVSA act properly outweigh the needs of the few who were designed to benefit from this but are not.

 

 

[memoak]

1 hour ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

If Vancouver is not a distant foreign port, then how does the Discovery legally do a four day cruise that goes from San Pedro to Vancouver and makes zero port stops?

Because it is not from one US port to a different one without a foreign ports in between. Blame  both the republicans and democrats for this longstanding law

Edited August 8, 2023 by memoak

[kiwimum]

18 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

Bolding is mine.   What is not boldly stated here is that cruisers are being re-directed to a Country which is dangerously classified by our State Department,   for the sole purpose of avoiding what is essentially a 'fining structure' designed to support some aspects of cabotage.

 

Thank You United States for your Adoptive Interpretations of the law which endangers US citizens and citizens from other countries not to mention the fact that is costing us in the wallet and we are losing the last day of the cruise or most of it to satisfy this law.

 

The needs to amend the PVSA act properly outweigh the needs of the few who were designed to benefit from this but are not.

 

 

Absolutely do not agree.  Everyone knew boarding and disembarking was in Ensenada.  This was in the early 2010.   At no time did we feel unsafe. The reason for the horrendous statement was the cruise line had made arrangements for all the buses to go through Otay Mesa crossing.   When you have 40+ buses showing up for Immigration the delays were extended.  I definitely would do it again.

Edited August 8, 2023 by kiwimum

[BlerkOne]

Many countries have cabotage laws like this. They remain on the books long after many of the industries they are designed to protect have disappeared. Forever and ever.

[cr8tiv1]

58 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Many countries have cabotage laws like this. They remain on the books long after many of the industries they are designed to protect have disappeared. Forever and ever.

I was surprised that Japan also had this similar law.  Hence the need to stop in Korea.  

[CruizinSusan70]

3 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

There are a number of US flagged vessels - Mississippi River cruise ships, for example.

Was referring to ocean cruise ships, not river ones.

[david63]

For a non US citizen could someone explain what is wrong with embarking in one port and disembarking in a different port as there is no such problem in the UK.

[CruizinSusan70]

Thanks for your help everyone.  It basically comes down to a few options.  We could do the four day LA-Van, take the Princess shuttle to Sea and then spend four days in Sea after spending one night in LA pre cruise.  And then either do 7 or 14 days SEA-SEA on the Discovery.  Second option is to fly into VAN, take the four day to SEA, do either 7 or probably 14 on the Discovery which is SEA-SEA and then see my daughter on the back end before flying home.   The third is to just do 14 B2B on the Discovery and then we could do the visit on the front end or back end. The fourth option is to do the May 4-11 on the Discovery (Sea-Sea), get off spend the day with my daughter and then the following day hop on the NCL Joy for a 9 day cruise.  Looks like the first option is too complicated with 5 nights of hotels added, so we'll have to decide amongst the other choices.  Will have to discuss with DH, but leaning towards the second option or possibly the fourth.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

The Pride of America from NCL is the only US flagged vessel I'm aware of.

First off, let me answer your confusion over the B3B.  While Princess sells the three cruises as separate cruises, CBP, for purposes of the PVSA, considers where you got on the ship, and where you left the ship as the "voyage", so the three cruises are considered, by them, as one.

 

While not large ships, American Cruise Lines, Uncruise Adventures, Alaska Dream Adventures, and Lindblad/National Geographic all operate coastal and ocean-going cruise ships under US flag.

[chengkp75]

35 minutes ago, david63 said:

For a non US citizen could someone explain what is wrong with embarking in one port and disembarking in a different port as there is no such problem in the UK.

If a ship transports a passenger from one US port to another US port, that is "domestic" trade, and is restricted to US flag vessels (back about the 1980's, the PVSA allowed for this if the voyage included a "distant" foreign port, since ships were getting around the PVSA by going 40 miles from Miami to the Bahamas, stopping only to get the ship's papers stamped for a port call, not letting passengers ashore, and calling it a "foreign" voyage).

 

The EU (and I know the UK left) has cabotage that limits domestic trade to EU members, so Panamanian or Bahamian flagged cruise ships could not do domestic routes anywhere in the EU.

 

While the UK does not have strict cabotage laws, per se, and have agreed to not impose cabotage restrictions on EU flag vessels, they do have laws that make it economically unfeasible to operate a non-UK or non-EU flag vessel in domestic UK trade.  You do not see Liberian, Panamanian, or Bahamian ships carrying cargo around the UK coast, nor operating as ferries within the UK.

[skynight]

8 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Not flying coast to coast for a four day cruise or even a seven day cruise.  I realize we are going from LA to Seattle, but if the la to Vancouver is ok because it ends in Vancouver and the Vancouver to Seattle is ok because it starts in Vancouver and Vancouver is this considered a distant port, why the violation?  I assume it would still be a violation if we eliminated the La-La portion and added a Sea-Sea Alaska portion on the back end?

You are over thinking this. It is the L.A. - Vancouver- Seattle trip that is the violation. By law it is considered a single voyage. The law dates from the 1880's stating that a passenger may not board a foreign flag vessel at one US port and disembark in another US port without visiting a distant foreign port. The law then goes on to define "near" foreign port and "distant" foreign port. Any port in North America (Vancouver) is legally defined as a near foreign port. Don't try to rationalize the law. Accept it. You can not change it. 

[Cruise Raider]

10 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

See above in italics.

Well said! 

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

My wanna-be-lawyer brain wants to say that the PVSA is always applicable to foreign flagged ships calling in the USA, but each individual voyage involved may or may not have a restriction associated or require meeting some provision in the Act.  Start USA/End Canada or Start Canada/End USA does not require the ship to meet any provisions in the Act (in terms of foreign ports - be they distant or near).

 

😉

To be technically correct, a voyage that begins or ends in a foreign country is exempt from PVSA restrictions.  A cruise that only calls at a non-"distant" port, is restricted by the PVSA to those cruises that start and end at the same US port.  A cruise that begins in one US port, and then ends in another US port, is restricted by the PVSA to those cruises that visit a "distant" foreign port.

[JRG]

6 hours ago, skynight said:

The law then goes on to define "near" foreign port and "distant" foreign port. Any port in North America (Vancouver) is legally defined as a near foreign port. Don't try to rationalize the law. Accept it. You can not change it. 

 

I think the word define here needs special attention when you talk about PVSA because it is one of the Marlarkey Kool-aid cruising urban myths that I am trying to debunk with solid evidence.

 

Right now it looks like maybe this is actually just how the USCG and its overseers are using an "Adoptive Interpretation" to determine what is a distant port or not.

but I could be wrong.....

 

lets see what the cat brings in.

Edited August 8, 2023 by JRG

[XBGuy]

I am going to comment that I learned about the PVSA with an experience very similar to the OP's.

 

I thought I found a totally fun cruise--fly to Seattle, take a roundtrip AK cruise, stay on the ship for a one-night cruise to Vancouver, then stay on the ship for a repositioning cruise back home to Los Angeles.

 

Normally, I book cruises myself from the Princess web site, but this time I called our PVP (actually, back then she was called a PCP) to make sure all the eyes were dotted and the tees were crossed.  It took just a few minutes on the telephone, and we were booked in our preferred cabin on all three legs of our B2B2B.  Life is good.

 

Until that same PVP called the very next day and explained that our cruise collided with the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1880-something.  I was very surprised that a Princess employee actually facilitated the booking of a cruise that would not be allowed, but that is exactly what happened.  She really tried to offer a workaround--taking overland transportation from Seattle to Vancouver--but I was not interested in that.  I offered to pay the fine (It really did not seem like that much,), but she told me that was not allowed.  So, I just pulled the plug on the whole venture.

 

I spent the next day, or so, doing internet reading on the PVSA.  It took me a while to get my arms around the various rules and exceptions, but I am now the PVSA expert in our coffee shop.

 

To the OP, you have my sympathy.  I know your disappointment.

[bemis12]

53 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

I think the word define here needs special attention when you talk about PVSA because it is one of the Marlarkey Kool-aid cruising urban myths that I am trying to debunk with solid evidence.

 

Right now it looks like maybe this is actually just how the USCG and its overseers are using an "Adoptive Interpretation" to determine what is a distant port or not.

but I could be wrong.....

 

lets see what the cat brings in.

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/4.80a

 

You would be mistaken there.  "Nearby foreign port" is defined in the law.  "Distant foreign port" is defined as a foreign port that's not part of the "Nearby foreign port" definition

[startedwithamouse]

16 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Just received a form letter from Princess regarding a B2B2B that we booked last week.  Had gotten an email from our assigned PVP at Princess and he did not mention any possible problems or violations, but the form letter stated we had to remove one of our cruises, but did not give any more specifics. Here are the details.

Cruise one is RT Los Angeles going to Mexican Riviera from 4/19-4/26/25.  Cruise two is four days from 4/26-4/30/25 going from Los Angeles to Vancouver with zero port stops.  Cruise three is four days from 4/30-5/4/25 going from Vancouver to Seattle with a single stop in Ketchikan.  

Each individual cruise should not have any violations.  They each visit a foreign port.  Then why does combining these cruises violate anything? They are treated as three separate voyages by Princess, so why does combining them cause a red flag violation of an antiquated law?

 

I was on hold for an hour earlier tonight before talking to a clueless CSR.  Before I go back on hold and speak to a supervisor tomorrow or Wednesday I figured I would come here and attempt to get some clarification before I call Princess back.  Thank you for your input.

You're embarking in Los Angeles.

 

You're disembarking in Seattle.

 

You're NOT visiting a distant foreign port. 

 

This is a violation of the PVSA. 

 

Your PVP just wants credit for booked cruises. They're not on your side. 

[skynight]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

 

I think the word define here needs special attention when you talk about PVSA because it is one of the Marlarkey Kool-aid cruising urban myths that I am trying to debunk with solid evidence.

 

Right now it looks like maybe this is actually just how the USCG and its overseers are using an "Adoptive Interpretation" to determine what is a distant port or not.

but I could be wrong.....

 

lets see what the cat brings in.

The definitions are spelled out in detail by US Law. It is not an "Adoptive Interpretation" by the US Coast Guard. The law can only be changed through the normal legislative process and not through interpretation by any US agency. You can find the law at the site below.

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/2019-Sep/PVSA-ICP.pdf

Have no idea what Marlarkey Kool-aid urban myths means. The law is not a myth. 

[bigbenboys]

16 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

That's the whole purpose, to visit my daughter in Seattle on the back end.  Also wanted short four day cruises to take advantage of the Premier package.  Very frustrated over this, especially after the PVP never mentioned any problems.

PSVA seems to only look at where you get on the ship and where you get off the ship. Your options are bus or train from Vancouver to Seattle or have your daughter pick you up in Vancouver. 

We have taken the train from Vancouver to Seattle. Next month we are taking the train to Vancouver to get on a Celebrity ship. We have done the bus before also. We have taken the bus from Vancouver to Bellingham and have family pick us up their. If your not on a time schedule then the bus Vancouver to Seattle might be best. 

[CruizinSusan70]

7 hours ago, startedwithamouse said:

You're embarking in Los Angeles.

You're disembarking in Seattle.

Not anymore.

[CruizinSusan70]

6 hours ago, bigbenboys said:

PSVA seems to only look at where you get on the ship and where you get off the ship. Your options are bus or train from Vancouver to Seattle or have your daughter pick you up in Vancouver. 

We have taken the train from Vancouver to Seattle. Next month we are taking the train to Vancouver to get on a Celebrity ship. We have done the bus before also. We have taken the bus from Vancouver to Bellingham and have family pick us up their. If your not on a time schedule then the bus Vancouver to Seattle might be best. 

Since we prefer non stop flights, flying into Vancouver is out because there are zero options out of Philly or Newark.  We have decided to do the 7 day on the Discovery from May 4-11, disembark for a day and see my daughter and then hop on the 9 day sailing of the NCL Joy on May 12.  We would be able to fly non stop on both ends of our cruise via Seattle.

[sunviking90]

12 minutes ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Since we prefer non stop flights, flying into Vancouver is out because there are zero options out of Philly or Newark.  We have decided to do the 7 day on the Discovery from May 4-11, disembark for a day and see my daughter and then hop on the 9 day sailing of the NCL Joy on May 12.  We would be able to fly non stop on both ends of our cruise via Seattle.

I’m glad you’ve found a resolution. I did want to mention that Air Canada has non stops from Newark to YVR currently.. Your cruise is almost 2 years away, so schedules could change but they’ve flown this route for a few years.

[CruizinSusan70]

4 minutes ago, sunviking90 said:

I’m glad you’ve found a resolution. I did want to mention that Air Canada has non stops from Newark to YVR currently.. Your cruise is almost 2 years away, so schedules could change but they’ve flown this route for a few years.

Since we'll be away for so long, we'll take a Lyft to & from PHL, which is of course cheaper than going all the way to EWR.  My DH would prefer the 21 day version of our trip if we added the 4 day front end in the Discovery, but I don't like being away from our dog too long.  The original trip that violated the PVSA was 15 nights and the new one with the extra day is 17.