Dress Code & Good Manners

[Beachdude]

So What do YOU do for ME to prove YOU aren't selfish ?

 

I did that long before I entered the dining room by dressing in such a way as to not embarrass or annoy you. Whether you would be embarrassed by how I dress isn't the point, that I didn't put you in the position to be embarrassed in the first place is.

 

Sally and I have come back from excursions feeling too exhausted to dress appropriately for the MDR, so we either called in room service or eat at the buffet.

 

Burt

[SeagoingMom]

But at X what are those parameters? Is a Dinner Jacket and slacks really formal?

Question of semantics. The point is, it is within the clear, explicit, understandable, no-question-about-it, large print dress code referred to by Celebrity as "Formal." :) They could have called it Nice", Super-nice", "Fancy," anything they wanted to call it. The point is, they define it.

 

Whether they enforce it is a matter of "customer relations." Given the heat of discussion in this forum, Celebrity may well be afraid of shouting matches and fisticuffs if they attempt to enforce their code. Many of us of a certain age lament the loss of "the customer is always right" business practice of a generation or two ago. Perhaps some do not like that practice as much as they thought, if the "customer" is not themselves. (I am NOT, repeat NOT, referring to DirtyDawg as one of these people. [insert gracious smile emoticon]

[babyher]

I did that long before I entered the dining room by dressing in such a way as to not embarrass or annoy you. Whether you would be embarrassed by how I dress isn't the point, that I didn't put you in the position to be embarrassed in the first place is.

 

Sally and I have come back from excursions feeling too exhausted to dress appropriately for the MDR, so we either called in room service or eat at the buffet.

 

Burt

 

I can't imagine how a total stranger could embarress or annoy me just by what they wore in a dining room. Maybe if the apparel had a logo, or symbol or writing on it that offened . But the actual clothing ????

[DirtyDawg]

JMHO but adults should be well beyond picture books by the time they book a cruise. Anyone who isn't sure what X means by its explanation of formal - either on its website or in its sales materials/brochures - should google it. If they're really lucky, there'll be pictures too!

 

Funny, but the owner's manual for my car is chalk full of pictures. Now, the auto enthusiast probably knows what a Mass Air Flow Sensor is and how to check and replace it, but not your average car owner - hence the pictures. This makes sure the average consumer can actually know the product and how to use and maintain it.

 

The problem with this bb is that most people are enthusiasts - I'm not, and as a more typical average customer, it souldn't be up to me to 'google it' to know what the cruise line is talking about. That's their job!

 

In my business we try our hardest to fully explain things to our clients because we are the 'experts' and our clients are not. I wouldn't dream of answering a client's question with 'Just go and Google it'. :rolleyes:

[lawblond7]

Now about that black suit - if I opt for short dresses for formal nights dh wears a dress suit and tie - if I do long gown then he wears the tux. I personally have never seen anyone on X that was in flagrant violation of the dress code in the MDR.

 

I for one like Maxi dress (casual or work one) but in general I think that all my formal dresses these days are short (or 3/4 length). While my ex husband owned a tux 20+ years ago in this day and age (I will be 50 this July) most of the events I go to - event charity events (I live just outside of DC) have very little need for a Tux. I can think of only one of the couples I know where the husband owns a tux.

 

As for the poster who said kids learning manners - you are correct. My boys are 16,16 & 20. On our first cruise 2 years ago the twins then 14 wanted to know why they could not wear shorts to dinner. I explained it to them and they were fine. They love to dress up now and all own at least 1 or more suit and tie.

 

Also not all women can wear dresses - my mom cannot and she has pant suits that are more formal than any of my dresses.

 

While I think we all interpret things different and some take things to literally and other to figuratively I think as long as one is not trying to flagrantly violate the rules or cause a scene who cares as long as they are dressed neatly and cleanly.

 

I understand the ambiance but in reality what someone else wears will not affect my dinner personally but as a mother of still growing and learning boys who I have raised to follow the rules, have good manners and be respectful, seeing someone dressed in shorts on a "Formal night" when my boys can read what the sign says does not set a good example for our future generation.

 

Just my opinion and as they saying goes we all have one.

 

sharon

[phoenix_dream]

Obviously the true problem is that the cruise line "has" a dress code that makes it clear that shorts and a t-shirt are not acceptable in the main dining room at dinner. The dress code is not written by "cruise snobs" it is written by the cruise line. Whether we personally think there should be a dress code for formal nights also has nothing to do with it. There is one in place and it is well published both before and during the cruise. If it is not something we are comfortable with there are many alternatives provided., "Cruise snobs"...horrible people that they are, abide by the requested dress code. Personally, I consider that to be good manners.

 

Whether certain forms of dress are acceptable in our neighborhood restaurant is really completely irrelevant. They don't have a written dress code. If the cruise line didn't have a dress code I would agree with everything you said.

 

In all my years of cruising I have never seen another passenger make any kind of a comment to another passenger on the ship. That would be bad manners. As far as I know, people are entitled to "think" whatever they like.

 

I do also think that purposely defying a written dress code when I am perfectly aware of it and have been given the choice of doing something else would certainly be bad manners. I also think it would be extremely pretentious to think I am so special that I can disregard a published policy because I may not agree with it.

Excellent response. When one chooses to cruise a certain line, it is only good manners to follow the guidelines/rules of that line. Everyone is welcome to agree or disagree with what the rules should be, but you know about them before you put down that deposit (or you should) so once you commit to the cruise, you are in essence committing to follow the 'rules' of that cruise line. To flagrantly disregard those rules because you don't happen to like them is rude, not to mention arrogant. I have not, nor would I ever make any comments to someone not following those rules, but it blows my mind that people can be so very self-centered that they just thumb their noses at rules they don't happen to like or agree with. It's all about me, me, me - sounds a lot like a spoiled two year old. Unfortunately this is a trend that goes way beyond cruise line dining.

[SeagoingMom]

An excellent question. I truly do not understand why what another person wears or does not wear should subtract from or enhance one's experience. I do not believe in giving such power over my happiness to any one else.

 

If I choose to 'dress up', then I do so because of the happiness it gives me and not because of how it affects others. Nor, will I allow my enjoyment of a situation to be affected by any other person's appearance or dress.

 

This is one of the most intriguing comments I have read on this entire forum. You have gotten me thinking in a way that no one else has -- thinking and pondering so much that I cannot formulate my view at this point, and I am almost never without a ready response to anything (this has its advantages and disadvantages, of course.)

 

My first reaction, however, is: is this a man's view vs a woman's? Do women, on average (or women CC posters, at least) care more about how other people around them are dressed than men do? Do they, on average, notice this more than men do? Do women dress moreso for themselves or for others? What about men -- dressing for themselves or for those around them?

 

Am I "giving over power?" Do social norms exist? Are Americans more inclined than others to make their own rules, or break others'? Do people who pay more for their cruise have different expectations and tolerance levels than those who pay less? Sorry, the head of this amateur psychologist is spinning with all kinds of intriguing questions! Does anyone need a Master's thesis or PhD dissertation topic?

 

Perhaps a few days, weeks, months, or even years from now you will see a posting from me which quotes you, and explains the complete philosophical stance I have developed regarding this entire subject.

 

And anyone who believes I am being sarcastic here is mistaken. Deep thinking is my gift, and my trial! :confused::(

[C 2 C]

My first reaction, however, is: is this a man's view vs a woman's?

 

Do most men care about plucking eyebrows,

the style of women's shoes,

the quality of finger nail or toe polish?

 

I think that most men do not have the eye for detail that most women have.

How much time does a man spend to get dressed up (from shower, shaving, hair, eyes, etc) as opposed to a woman?

 

Do we "puff up" like birds strutting their stuff when in the company of others?

 

Does how much we care about impressing others diminish with age?

At what age do we decide that it's nice for others but just too much bother for us?

[DirtyDawg]

I think that most men do not have the eye for detail that most women have.

 

I would rephrase that to "most men do not have the eye for detail than most women have when it relates to things they are not interested in".

 

When we neanderthals get interested in something we can get very, very detail oriented.;)

:D

[babyher]

I would rephrase that to "most men do not have the eye for detail than most women have when it relates to things they are not interested in".

 

When we neanderthals get interested in something we can get very, very detail oriented.;)

:D

 

 

You got that right :)

[KaththeTaff]

Whether they enforce it is a matter of "customer relations." Given the heat of discussion in this forum, Celebrity may well be afraid of shouting matches and fisticuffs if they attempt to enforce their code.[/quote)

 

From what we read on these forums, it does seem as though the 'enforcement' varies from ship to ship, and from Maitre D' to Maitre D'. I imagine that there is an element of not wanting to annoy their guests, after all, they want the people whoc ruise with them to continue crusiign with them! But it's a fine line between pleasing one person so they return and upsetting another who then goes to a different line.

 

I suppose you just can't please all the people all the time, so there's bound to be an element of discretion over how they treat individual diners if they turn up to the dining room inappropriately dressed. I think that Rowan Atkinson, or anyone else similarly attired, may well be allowed in on the vast majority of occasions, whereas I would hope that someone in bare feet, swim shorts and a ripped vest would always be advised to go and get dressed and come back when they have done so!

[Beachdude]

I can't imagine how a total stranger could embarress or annoy me just by what they wore in a dining room.

 

You are just not trying hard enough. However, should the very worst of what we might imagine of other people set the minimum of how we should dress?

 

This subject reminds me of the discussion I had with some European cruisers a couple years ago. Their experience with American cruisers has given them the impression that Americans use meal time only as an activity to fill their bellys, and the way they dress for it makes them easy to identify in a dining room. That kind of makes sense when you think about the obesity problems and the number of fast food restaurants we have in our culture.

 

Europeans use meal time is a social event to enjoy the company of others. It would not be unusual for Europeans to spend several hours at the dinner table. I've heard this same thing from friends and family members who travel and vacation in Europe.

 

Burt

[lawblond7]

On the other hand are we now going to control who wears what at the pool. My boys on our last cruise were shocked at the amount of speedos they saw - we sailed the Eastern Med out of Rome during a time when it was Holiday in Italy and Italians were most numerous on the ship followed by Brits. So my boys and I got an eyeful. Granted it was not my place to tell a 300 pound man that maybe a speedo was not a good idea but that was at the pool. If that same man came to the dining room with his stomach exposed yes maybe it would ruin my or someone elses dinner.

 

sharon

[babyher]

You are just not trying hard enough. However, should the very worst of what we might imagine of other people set the minimum of how we should dress?

 

This subject reminds me of the discussion I had with some European cruisers a couple years ago. Their experience with American cruisers has given them the impression that Americans use meal time only as an activity to fill their bellys, and the way they dress for it makes them easy to identify in a dining room. That kind of makes sense when you think about the obesity problems and the number of fast food restaurants we have in our culture.

 

Europeans use meal time is a social event to enjoy the company of others. It would not be unusual for Europeans to spend several hours at the dinner table. I've heard this same thing from friends and family members who travel and vacation in Europe.

 

Burt

 

There are many times that americans have long leisurely dinners with their famileies for several hours.

 

Holidays , weekends, special occasions.

 

When I was akid , Sunday dinner was a all day affair at my grandparents house.

 

unfortunately as life has changed and people work longer hours , most families have both parents working sometimes 2 jobs, every meal cannot be a lingering feast

[monkeyluis]

On the other hand are we now going to control who wears what at the pool. My boys on our last cruise were shocked at the amount of speedos they saw - we sailed the Eastern Med out of Rome during a time when it was Holiday in Italy and Italians were most numerous on the ship followed by Brits. So my boys and I got an eyeful. Granted it was not my place to tell a 300 pound man that maybe a speedo was not a good idea but that was at the pool. If that the same man came to the dining room with his stomach exposed yes maybe it would ruin my or someone elses dinner.

 

sharon

 

I agree about the dining room. But pool is the pool. Different cultures & customs.

[lysolqn]

The problem with this bb is that most people are enthusiasts - I'm not, and as a more typical average customer, it souldn't be up to me to 'google it' to know what the cruise line is talking about. That's their job!

 

No, that's not their job! It's up to you, enthusiast or typical average customer, to know what the cruise line is talking about. Notwithstanding, just to ensure you know, the cruise line includes information re evening dress, including formal, on its website, in its sales brochures, in the dailies and at the entrance to the MDR. IMHO, any adult who, beyond the information already provided by the cruise line, requires pictures to grasp the concept of dark suit, jacket and tie or cocktail dress is feigning ignorance as an excuse to do or not do as he or she chooses.

[Karynanne]

You are just not trying hard enough. However, should the very worst of what we might imagine of other people set the minimum of how we should dress?

 

This subject reminds me of the discussion I had with some European cruisers a couple years ago. Their experience with American cruisers has given them the impression that Americans use meal time only as an activity to fill their bellys, and the way they dress for it makes them easy to identify in a dining room. That kind of makes sense when you think about the obesity problems and the number of fast food restaurants we have in our culture.

 

Europeans use meal time is a social event to enjoy the company of others. It would not be unusual for Europeans to spend several hours at the dinner table. I've heard this same thing from friends and family members who travel and vacation in Europe.

 

Burt

 

I agree with you. Europeans have mastered the art of dining versus eating. They savor their meal as much as their companions. The waitstaff also allows you languish during your dining experience and your never feel rushed. It's a lifestyle that we all could a lot from.

[KaththeTaff]

You are just not trying hard enough. However, should the very worst of what we might imagine of other people set the minimum of how we should dress?

 

This subject reminds me of the discussion I had with some European cruisers a couple years ago. Their experience with American cruisers has given them the impression that Americans use meal time only as an activity to fill their bellys, and the way they dress for it makes them easy to identify in a dining room. That kind of makes sense when you think about the obesity problems and the number of fast food restaurants we have in our culture.

 

Europeans use meal time is a social event to enjoy the company of others. It would not be unusual for Europeans to spend several hours at the dinner table. I've heard this same thing from friends and family members who travel and vacation in Europe.

 

Burt

 

I fear that the British attitude to meal times may be closer to the US than Europe!

[lawblond7]

I agree about the dining room. But pool is the pool. Different cultures & customs.

 

That was my point it is not my place to tell someone maybe you should not wear that suit at the pool as with the exception of being in your birthday suit I beleive there are no "rules' about proper attire for the pool. But in the dining room - think about setting an example for the next generation. I hear so many times how kids my boys age and a bit older have no respect for authority or elders, etc. Well it starts with us (yes I will only be 50 in July) but I was brought up a certain way - RESPECT. If the rules say you cannot wear this then dont do it. Yes we all want some individuality hence no one is requiring you all to wear the same black gown with the same accessories, etc. But if our kids see that the rules say on formal night suit and tie and then they see someone walking in and being served in shorts and a t-shirt what example does that show - no need to follow rules, See the 65 mile hour speed limit is just a rule if you do not want to follow it then dont but you might get a ticket same if you wear shorts and a tshirt to dinner you might not get served.

 

Sharon

[Hartlepool]

About a bajillion posts on here deal with MDR dress codes. These posts vary in degree from legitimate questions to imposing, harassing attacks. I have found that a common element exists in quite a few of the posts from the harassing side of the equation. The common element is a misunderstanding of the definition of good manners.

I am certain I have read a post that offered a dictionary definition that seemed to side with the dress-formal-or-stay-in crowd, which tends to focus on the letter of the law without giving one iota of care to the spirit of the law. Of course it doesn't take into consideration what is good manners in the real world, both today and a few decades ago. Guys wearing hats while eating has never been accepted, but wearing shorts is commonly accepted (and not scorned) at most decent restaurants. I'll exclude the restaurants that overcharge for their food because the imposing harassers have to eat somewhere on the mainland. In fact, shorts or casual (not sloppy) clothing is acceptable and within good manners most everywhere (although not at every function). That being said, a paid for dinner on a cruise ship is not a function that should demand one wear formal clothing. I thoroughly enjoy dressing up for the formal nights. On the other hand, if you are more comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt, then more power to you. The true problem is, as I referred to them in another post some time ago, is the cruise snobs. I just ask that you pass the pepper, and exercise true good manners of eating with your mouth closed, your napkin on your lap, and your hat off your head.

In conclusion, it is not bad manners to not wear formal clothes to formal night, except to the pretentious people who have been duped into believing an 8 oz. steak, ruined with a sauce, is worth $40. What is bad manners is to believe that another person is less of a person because he/she carries themselves in a different way than you do.

I really cannot believe what I have just read. The cruise line makes it absolutely clear, BEFORE YOU MAKE A RESERVATION, what their rules and regulations are. If you are not prepared to abide by these rules then, quite simply, do not make a reservation with the cruise line. I would also respectfully suggest that attempting to enter the MDR on a formsl night in shorts and T-shirt is not only disrespectful to other diners, but also shows a "I can do what I like" attitude which is totally unforgivable.

[Beachdude]

There are many times that americans have long leisurely dinners with their famileies for several hours.

 

Holidays , weekends, special occasions.

 

Yes, but if we can count them, we are probably doing it wrong.

 

I remember a couple years after the Colenbine massacre, NPR had family psychologist guest who was contracted by a state on the East coast to give conferences to parents with the intent of teaching habits for developing a closer relationship with their children. He was a bit pessimistic after the experience giving an example of parents asking exactly how many minutes were required to sit with children at dinner time to achieve a healthy family relationship.

 

Makes one wonder if our “me me” attitude toward vacations and dress is reflective of our culture in general.

 

Burt

[DirtyDawg]

No, that's not their job! It's up to you, enthusiast or typical average customer, to know what the cruise line is talking about. Notwithstanding, just to ensure you know, the cruise line includes information re evening dress, including formal, on its website, in its sales brochures, in the dailies and at the entrance to the MDR. IMHO, any adult who, beyond the information already provided by the cruise line, requires pictures to grasp the concept of dark suit, jacket and tie or cocktail dress is feigning ignorance as an excuse to do or not do as he or she chooses.

 

 

Hmmm, but do they mention ties and BTW where does it mention "dark suit".

 

Right from the X web site;

 

""Formal" attire includes:

Ladies: Cocktail dress, gown, or dressy pantsuit. Gentlemen: Tuxedo, suit, or dinner jacket with slacks."

 

Are you more bothered by people doing what they choose to do or are you bothered because they are not choosing to do what YOU want them to do.

 

Seems Celebrity is just fine with a suit - not a dark suit. And it looks like ties are optional.

[lawblond7]

unfortunately as life has changed and people work longer hours , most families have both parents working sometimes 2 jobs, every meal cannot be a lingering feast

 

But you can still instill the values in your kids. I have raised my boys basically alone for the last 14 years. Yes I work full time. And while I am the first to admit my boys can be brats etc. especially at home and to mom at times, I akso know that if I send them to someone's house or out to dinner with someone they will ALWAYS behave and use proper manners. On our last cruise we had dinner with the captain the boys were 14,14, & 18 and sat for 2+ hours and were so well behaved that other parents around us wanted to know what I bribed them with. The captain even mentioned how well behaved they were.

 

I know I can take my boys to most places. Last weekend for mother's day we took my mom to Chima (a Brazilian steak house) and the boys sat for almost 2 hours happy, eating and respectful. I think if we do not set an example for those younger than us then we have no right to complain,.

 

Sharon

[babyher]

But you can still instill the values in your kids. I have raised my boys basically alone for the last 14 years. Yes I work full time. And while I am the first to admit my boys can be brats etc. especially at home and to mom at times, I akso know that if I send them to someone's house or out to dinner with someone they will ALWAYS behave and use proper manners. On our last cruise we had dinner with the captain the boys were 14,14, & 18 and sat for 2+ hours and were so well behaved that other parents around us wanted to know what I bribed them with. The captain even mentioned how well behaved they were.

 

I know I can take my boys to most places. Last weekend for mother's day we took my mom to Chima (a Brazilian steak house) and the boys sat for almost 2 hours happy, eating and respectful. I think if we do not set an example for those younger than us then we have no right to complain,.

 

Sharon

 

Of course you teach your children right from wrong and manners and respect for others

 

You just can't always do it at a dining room table for 2 hours with appropriate silverware for all 7 courses.

 

I have always been amazed when people compliment us on our kids , they sound like wonderful young people when they go to other peoples homes *LOL*

 

Oh well you do raise them to go out into the world and be decent human beings not to just hang around the house . :)

[lysolqn]

Hmmm, but do they mention ties and BTW where does it mention "dark suit".

 

You will notice it doesn't mention "shirt" or "shoes" either but I guess the cruise line and I both make the mistake of assuming most adults possess at least a modicum more intelligence than the bare minimum necessary for survival.

 

My apologies...reference to "dark" suit harkens back to an earlier iteration of X's description of "Formal," said description having since been relaxed.

 

Are you more bothered by people doing what they choose to do or are you bothered because they are not choosing to do what YOU want them to do.

 

Neither. With all due respect, you seem to be the only one bothered by opinions that aren't in line with your own.

 

Seems Celebrity is just fine with a suit - not a dark suit. And it looks like ties are optional.

 

It's nice to know some folks can actually glean that info without pictures.