Reduced Staffing - a myth?

[Quo Vadis?]

As an X cruiser since 1992 I am going on record again as saying that 1) I love Celebrity, 2) Celebrity is my line of choice, and 3) I have experienced definite declines in certain areas that while they do not prevent me from having a great cruise are in fact noticeable. I am here to say definitively that all three of these comments can be true because they are for me.

You are absolutely right in your comments, agree with all three of your comments and I have been sailing with them since 92 also. .

 

We're newbies at this.. our first was in 94..;)

For anyone with a long cruising history and a good memory, perceptions are much more important than any "facts" that attempt to create a different reality. We also note the differences over time and our personal experiences and observations create a reality that may be much different from someone who has cruised only for the last few years.

Perhaps some cabin categories have not had a decline in service. Perhaps some areas such as Blu have not seen a longer wait between courses or beverage service.

As coldweathergirl stated,

I wonder if some of the staff cabin slack is being taken up by the onboard future cruise sales staff. There seemed to be a minimum of 4 on our last sailing and a couple of years ago it was an office of one. They also have the specialty excursion desk that was not in place a year or so.

And then some of the cabin space is taken up again by Parkwest.. :(

[cle-guy]

 

 

Your comments are well thought out however those on the dining room staff do not explain what happened on S class ships if you accept the bar staff went to Blu or other locations on the M class ships. I think eliminating the bar server predates the M class upgrades to S class venues, not sure about that though. (can't spell that damn word, don't want to search for it) Think they lose money on this, I ordered a drink and it took forever, didn't get it until middle of dinner. Didn't bother ordering at dinner the rest of the cruise.

 

 

My cruise experience only started in early 2013. I can honestly say I've NEVER had a bar server in solarium come ant take a drink order.

 

I also know bar servers were taking drink orders in MDR for me as recent as March of this year, I noticed them gone on my TA for the first time, and magically I just switched to wine....their trick to push sales worked on me LOL.

 

As to M class BLU etc versus Solstice class, I don't know how to tell there, I again just go back to if they are not on the ship, why aren't their cabins making money now as sellable cabins to us..... Maybe they started Solstice class with limited staff versus M class from the get go, perhaps specialty dining has become more popular as time goes on and thus requires moving staff from MDR to alternate venues.

[cle-guy]

Mind you, converting some of the "embedded" cabins to small singles like on NCL Breakaway (see their deck plans... They are the closest thing afloat on a mainstream cruise line to a crew cabin) might prove to be a successful / profitable thing to attract a single "modern luxury" cruiser

 

Cheers!

 

This is exactly what I'm kind of waiting to see happen, if the cabins are in fact vacant.... Solo cabins.

 

One of the Cunard ships just aded a few solo cabins, I have been wondering if those came from former crew space.

[cle-guy]

And then some of the cabin space is taken up again by Parkwest.. :(

 

Parkwest isn't a new thing is it? I know I saw them on my sailings last year, the year I'm comparing staffing cuts to. I had assumed they were almost a tradition, being on cruise lines for many, many years....so their cabins are already part of the head count.

 

I would agree that perhaps Future Cruise sales may have been "beefed up" and also think there is 1 or 2 more concierges onboard than in the past (suites and a general one)

Edited July 31, 2014 by cle-guy

[Ma Bell]

Agree 100%

 

Nothing to add on this topic other than the info is interesting

 

CLE-GUY I enjoy your posts due to your personal perspective of being a long time cruiser (various Celebrity Itineraries & Cabin Categories), RC Stockholder & someone with a background in Hotel Management.

 

Your observations make sense to me,

 

Cheers!

 

Is 18 months a long time cruiser? I don't disagree that some of the analysis is interesting but these reductions have not been overnight. Many of us don't find it necessary to post all of our experience over many years. Some of the "statistics" are valid I'm sure but these reports are always manipulated to show what they want. I think there's a lot of validity to personal experience and observation as well as information from the people who actually work there.

[NLH Arizona]

Parkwest isn't a new thing is it? I know I saw them on my sailings last year, the year I'm comparing staffing cuts to. I had assumed they were almost a tradition, being on cruise lines for many, many years....so their cabins are already part of the head count.

 

I would agree that perhaps Future Cruise sales may have been "beefed up" and also think there is 1 or 2 more concierges onboard than in the past (suites and a general one)

I've been cruising for over 20 years with different lines and Parkwest has been on cruise ships for as long as I can remember.

[Ma Bell]

I will take facts over perceptions and anecdotal comments when I have them. Some interesting figures were quoted, and from there certain conclusions were drawn. Unfortunately, we do not have enough facts to say with certainty how many staff were cut, or from where were the staff cut. There are so many unknowns, matched with many more variables relating to reassignment rather than cutting, RCI vs Celebrity cuts, etc.. What we can know from the statistics is that the amount of cuts overall was not drastic.

 

Those of us who have cruised Celebrity for many, many years risk intense flaming when we dare to mention cuts that have taken place over the years either in staffing, quality of service or food, or whatever. We are accused of never being satisfied, being complainers, finding fault with everything, the list goes on and on. As an X cruiser since 1992 I am going on record again as saying that 1) I love Celebrity, 2) Celebrity is my line of choice, and 3) I have experienced definite declines in certain areas that while they do not prevent me from having a great cruise are in fact noticeable. I am here to say definitively that all three of these comments can be true because they are for me. I would appreciate anyone commenting on these statements to consider all three of them, and not just #3. How much of this decline can be attributed to staffing cuts versus other money saving efforts I cannot always determine.

 

I believe it is worth taking a grain of salt with comments from staff about reductions, but I think there has been enough hearsay evidence from multiple fronts to not completely dismiss it out of hand. Is it exaggerated? Perhaps. But it is mentioned often enough I don't think it should completely be disregarded. Having been a manager for many, many years, I can say with certainty that only a fool will not pay any attention to what the staff is saying. This analogy is not exact, but I think the basic truth still holds - no one knows what is really going on better than the people doing the day to day work.

 

You hit the nail on the head.

[hcat]

I will take facts over perceptions and anecdotal comments when I have them. Some interesting figures were quoted, and from there certain conclusions were drawn. Unfortunately, we do not have enough facts to say with certainty how many staff were cut, or from where were the staff cut. There are so many unknowns, matched with many more variables relating to reassignment rather than cutting, RCI vs Celebrity cuts, etc.. What we can know from the statistics is that the amount of cuts overall was not drastic.

 

Those of us who have cruised Celebrity for many, many years risk intense flaming when we dare to mention cuts that have taken place over the years either in staffing, quality of service or food, or whatever. We are accused of never being satisfied, being complainers, finding fault with everything, the list goes on and on. As an X cruiser since 1992 I am going on record again as saying that 1) I love Celebrity, 2) Celebrity is my line of choice, and 3) I have experienced definite declines in certain areas that while they do not prevent me from having a great cruise are in fact noticeable. I am here to say definitively that all three of these comments can be true because they are for me. I would appreciate anyone commenting on these statements to consider all three of them, and not just #3. How much of this decline can be attributed to staffing cuts versus other money saving efforts I cannot always determine.

 

I believe it is worth taking a grain of salt with comments from staff about reductions, but I think there has been enough hearsay evidence from multiple fronts to not completely dismiss it out of hand. Is it exaggerated? Perhaps. But it is mentioned often enough I don't think it should completely be disregarded. Having been a manager for many, many years, I can say with certainty that only a fool will not pay any attention to what the staff is saying. This analogy is not exact, but I think the basic truth still holds - no one knows what is really going on better than the people doing the day to day work.

 

I think this statement is well thought out and expressed.....

[Andy]

So a brief and simple question, if so many staff are no longer on the ship, why are those cabins sailing empty not yet converted to revenue generating cabins....? The revenue those would generate is a hundred fold more than the cost savings.

 

Discuss....

 

Hi Cle-guy,

 

To answer your question, it's because the crew cabins are in non-public areas. You cant take a crew cabin on Deck 0 or -1, and make it open to the public. I'm uncertain exactly what the vacated cabins are currently used for.... but my guess is, they are currently occupied by smaller quantity of crew in new positions, which are likely higher revenue generators - at the expense of folks like bar staff and activities staff, which have been reduced and/or eliminated. I doubt reduced staffing is "a myth" as you put it... as I know of several who are unemployed, as a result of changes over the past year - both onboard, and at Captains Club in Wichita.

 

IMO, anyone can take the numbers, and massage them in a way that plays well to their story.... but my eyes, comments from crew, and our onboard service experience tell me that staff in key areas have been reduced and/or eliminated. As mentioned above, it's entirely possible they've been replaced with crew in other positions, but that's not to say with any degree of certainty, that it will make the cruise experience any better or worse. FWIW, I'm not excited about some of what I've experienced over the past few sailings - but I'm not panicking. I realize it's a work in progress, and I'm perfectly fine with being patient, and seeing how it all plays out. What seems clear, is that the priority has shifted to being more about profits, and less so about the cruise experience. Will it ultimately work in Celebrity's favor ? From a profit standpoint, I suspect they will achieve their short term goals. However, I must wonder if the changes might hurt the brand over the long term. For now, I believe the jury is still out. Time will tell.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Host Andy

[OBX-Cruisers]

Host Andy:

I have read several of your posts in the last few weeks and am constantly impressed with your replies to various posts that seem to be trying to stir up the pot with provocative sounding "problems" or their perceived absence. Some do not take the balanced approach found in your comments and instead either bash or glorify Celebrity performance.

Wife and I will be taking two Celebrity cruises in the remaining months in 2014 and will make up our own mind if the cuts in the activities staff mentioned by many are real and if that significantly affects our initial impression of Celebrity as a true fun ship with caring crew and lots and lots to do each day.

I am distressed to hear my wife saying she thinks we should no longer cruise again if the rumors prove to be correct that the activities are fewer and food quality is compromised. I love cruising and Celebrity has become our favorite. I truly hope that profits do not alter our experience in a negative direction and that we can continue with Celebrity vs. moving back to RCL as an alternative where we are also very happy.

Thank you for your continued comments on all of these boards.

[cle-guy]

Hi Cle-guy,

 

To answer your question, it's because the crew cabins are in non-public areas. You cant take a crew cabin on Deck 0 or -1, and make it open to the public. .

 

I know I've seen crew cabins in nooks and crannies on higher decks than just -1 and 0, I believe especially when going to do a bridge tour or helipad sail away.

 

Certainly MOST are in the lower levels without doubt. But the ones on higher decks crew could be reacommodated to lower decks and revamp the ones on upper deck spaces, pushing back the "PRIVATE" door by 4 to 8 cabins. I know some for example are near the bridge, where on some other cruise lines, that space is actually open to the public behind glass wall to watch the bridge without needing special permission for a tour thus there is no legal requirement to maintain it as secure space. They could easily juggle cabin arrangements to move captain and 2nd in command for example to remain in the vicinity, and change the rest of the cabins in the area to passenger cabins, moving the other bridge staff and higher ups to the below decks spaces that are presumably now sailing empty.

 

It's a hassle, but one that generates $4 million if only 8 lost crew, $8 million if 16 lost crew, $12 million if 24 lost crew or $16 million if 32 lost crew. With the focus on revenue, seems like a pretty decent ROI to make such drastic changes, if the space is there to do so.

 

I have no doubt many people have lost jobs, or are no longer working for X or had positions eliminated. But I also know that cruise line staff rotates, get burned out, and get replaced and new positions are created. I've met many brand new people on board just starting their cruise career, much like you have met those who no longer work for the cruise line. There's always going to be attrition. Some because they wanted to leave, others because they were asked to leave.

 

My focus is trying to remain on the on-board staffing and not so much with Witchita but for the extent it relates to the 312 positions being lost. In fact if many have lost jobs in Wichita, and if staff dollars are generally level, then that would lend support to the theory that not only have on board staff not gone away, but they have added people in order to move the wages from Wichita to someplace else. Of course that's not the case, unless those wages really did add staff to the ships, in form of additional Future Cruise consultants, for example as some have and noticed are now in higher numbers than past.

 

I met one of the casual entertainers on one cruise, who was disembarking at the next port of call. He was sailing in a standard, non crew cabin. Why would they not have the entertainment staff (contracted like spa staff) use one of those empty crew cabins? He was joking that they wouldn't even let him pay to upgrade to a veranda, only had an ocean view cabin as we waited for the elevator.

[hulamoon]

We also have seen staff working harder and I hope it doesn't become uncomfortable to watch. It's impossible to enjoy a vacation while the staff is over stressed, for us anyway.

[C-Dragons]

I will take facts over perceptions and anecdotal comments when I have them. Some interesting figures were quoted, and from there certain conclusions were drawn. Unfortunately, we do not have enough facts to say with certainty how many staff were cut, or from where were the staff cut. There are so many unknowns, matched with many more variables relating to reassignment rather than cutting, RCI vs Celebrity cuts, etc.. What we can know from the statistics is that the amount of cuts overall was not drastic.

 

Those of us who have cruised Celebrity for many, many years risk intense flaming when we dare to mention cuts that have taken place over the years either in staffing, quality of service or food, or whatever. We are accused of never being satisfied, being complainers, finding fault with everything, the list goes on and on. As an X cruiser since 1992 I am going on record again as saying that 1) I love Celebrity, 2) Celebrity is my line of choice, and 3) I have experienced definite declines in certain areas that while they do not prevent me from having a great cruise are in fact noticeable. I am here to say definitively that all three of these comments can be true because they are for me. I would appreciate anyone commenting on these statements to consider all three of them, and not just #3. How much of this decline can be attributed to staffing cuts versus other money saving efforts I cannot always determine.

 

I believe it is worth taking a grain of salt with comments from staff about reductions, but I think there has been enough hearsay evidence from multiple fronts to not completely dismiss it out of hand. Is it exaggerated? Perhaps. But it is mentioned often enough I don't think it should completely be disregarded. Having been a manager for many, many years, I can say with certainty that only a fool will not pay any attention to what the staff is saying. This analogy is not exact, but I think the basic truth still holds - no one knows what is really going on better than the people doing the day to day work.

We took our first X cruise in 2003 (so not so seasoned) but agree 100%.

[C-Dragons]

I agree wholeheartedly! Have been cruising with X for almost 20 years and still am and will continue to do so. Having said that there is no question that staffing is reduced since I first cruised. I don't need statistical analysis to prove that. There are either no sommeliers in the MDR anymore or very few. The wait staff handle far more tables now than they did then, cocktail servers were everywhere, now much more sparse. Housekeeping staff handle more staterooms, I know this for a FACT. Again, this is not meant to complain, just acknowledgement that it is a fact. I think it is harder, MUCH harder for someone who just began cruising with Celebrity in the last few years to see those changes, those of us who have been with them for a decade or more see it very easily. Still love the product they are putting out and can't wait for the next cruise!!:)

Your observations are spot on.

[dkjretired]

Cle-guys comments are well stated and researched but I have a totally different take. I'm a simple person and just go on a cruise to enjoy myself with my wife and take in the whole cruise experience. If the experience becomes bad and it hasn't yet, my pocketbook will do the talking.

[4774Papa]

Our last cruise Around the Horn of South America on Infinity this January, our sommelier, George in the MDR was there when we needed him. On prior X cruises, we have always had a sommelier serving our table. Of course, they served more than one table, but were on call, when needed.

 

I realize that everyone has a different experience on a different cruise, perhaps on the same ship, but perhaps the problem is that some sommeliers are not as spot on as others. I suppose we had good ones on Infinity 4 cruises, Constellation 2 cruises and Solstice one cruise.

[chamima]

We also have seen staff working harder and I hope it doesn't become uncomfortable to watch. It's impossible to enjoy a vacation while the staff is over stressed, for us anyway.

 

I agree!

[Gracie115]

IMO, anyone can take the numbers, and massage them in a way that plays well to their story.....

 

You are SO right Andy, numbers can be twisted to say whatever you want....

[C-Dragons]

I know I've seen crew cabins in nooks and crannies on higher decks than just -1 and 0, I believe especially when going to do a bridge tour or helipad sail away.

 

I met one of the casual entertainers on one cruise, who was disembarking at the next port of call. He was sailing in a standard, non crew cabin. Why would they not have the entertainment staff (contracted like spa staff) use one of those empty crew cabins? He was joking that they wouldn't even let him pay to upgrade to a veranda, only had an ocean view cabin as we waited for the elevator.

First, the guest entertainers are NOT crew members, so why should they occupy crew cabin space?

Second, why does this even matter to you?

[OBX-Cruisers]

Argo in post #8 included a quote that we should remember when using gross financials to extrapolate down to numbers of crew per ship: "There are three kinds of lies:

lies, damned lies, and statistics."

 

The hypothesis that the total number of crew members may have remained the same per ship based on financial calculations (I don't know if anyone has actual numbers on changes in crew/ship/job category) would still not mitigate the fact that many have seen and reported on CC boards that the activities staff, a capella group and numbers of orchestra members have been cut. Others have commented that waiters now have more tables, cleaning staff have more cabins and there are fewer bar staff............again no way to quantify just how many crew were either cut or transferred to new areas to really get good statistics on particular services and possible increases in work/crew member. Crunching financial numbers does not help at all in getting at the details for crew changes for these individual services important for all passengers.

So in the end each passenger will have to determine if there have been changes from their previous experiences in areas important to THEM and if the changes are acceptable for booking future cruises. Personally, I think the crew work incredibly hard already. If their days are made longer and sleeping hours diminished excessively........passenger experiences will likely suffer as a result and these changes will be most evident to the loyal repeat passengers, unfortunately.

Edited July 31, 2014 by OBX-Cruisers

[NLH Arizona]

Our last cruise Around the Horn of South America on Infinity this January, our sommelier, George in the MDR was there when we needed him. On prior X cruises, we have always had a sommelier serving our table. Of course, they served more than one table, but were on call, when needed.

 

I realize that everyone has a different experience on a different cruise, perhaps on the same ship, but perhaps the problem is that some sommeliers are not as spot on as others. I suppose we had good ones on Infinity 4 cruises, Constellation 2 cruises and Solstice one cruise.

I read a lot of reviews and most are saying that the service has been great. While some on here say they have had to wait for bar service, many reviews have said that they never had to wait. I think you are correct, everyone has a different experience. Maybe someone waiting a couple of minutes isn't a big deal to them, but to another it is a deal breaker, if their expectations are that they are waited on immediately when they step up to the bar. Edited July 31, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[jan-n-john]

So a brief and simple question, if so many staff are no longer on the ship, why are those cabins sailing empty not yet converted to revenue generating cabins....? The revenue those would generate is a hundred fold more than the cost savings.

 

Discuss....

 

Hi Curt. Good work -- Interesting for me to see the analysis I posted in another thread has stimulated some further discussion, thanks to you.

 

A couple of (I hope) clarifications, based on memory and not a return to the financials themselves, so I hope my memory is correct. (1) Entertainment folks are not employees and are not included in the staffing cost numbers that we are talking about here, so if anyone thinks there are fewer entertainers that may be but it has nothing to do with the staffing costs. (2) the staffing costs we are talking about here are only shipboard personnel; executives, sales folks, etc are another category entirely and are not reflected here; (3) the increase in revenue flows from increases in pax count--load factor went from about 102% to about 103% between the two periods (due to more cabins with more than 2 people). There was no change I know of in the ships/cabins available, which is why I suggested from the get-go that there really shouldn't be any change in staffing, since putting more than two pax in a few more cabins isn't going to change shipboard staffing. Also, it should be mentioned that it isn't clear whether gratuities are included in these staffing cost numbers.

 

Hope that helps.

 

In response to your question, I believe staff cabins are of design and location that puts them physically out of bounds as revenue cabins. Staff cabin spaces are in the "staff only" parts of the ship. Thus, even if staff head counts were down (and I doubt they actually are significantly), I don't believe that space could be sold in any event.

Edited July 31, 2014 by jan-n-john

[richstowe]

I would suggest that if your analysis and assumptions are correct, then 16 potential positions in more targeted areas around the ship might become significant if you exclude wait and cabin staff under the assumption that they are not paid a salary or one that would NOT warrant eliminating the position.

 

I have heard that the activities staff has been the area effected. This is just what I have heard. My guess is they have 4-5 people per ship so losing one person here would be a 25 to 20 percent reduction of staff in that area using my 4-5 staffing number pre slot elimination.

 

Thanks for your effort!

Your post makes a lot of sense . Cuts in 16 positions could make a difference in service quality .

I wonder if the Canyon Ranch contract has made any difference for better or worse on staffing levels.

[The_Big_M]

It is also more than the salary or wages. Every employee gets medical, food, uniforms, insurance, cabin space and I think transportation to and from their home. There is also the cost of accounting involved to handle thier pay, paperwork, records, and etc.

 

Plus every person on board also uses utilities, and things that require disposal. Everything adds up.

 

Spot on miched.

 

The analysis disregarded that.

[The_Big_M]

The analysis also ignores that passenger numbers have been increased from what the M class ships were designed for. The reduction in service can result from increased passenger load on the servers, rather than cutting staff, but by not increasing staff to cater for the increased passengers. Service still falls, but not in the way the analysis is designed.