So where did the crew go?

[sfaaa]

Improve efficiency, automation, system streamlining and better/smarter equipments all contributed to less human labor required to perform the same tasks on the ship. Just because things were done a certain way in the past doesn't mean they should remain the same heading into the future. I see no conspiracy here and have zero concern.

Edited May 28, 2016 by sfaaa

[navybankerteacher]

Passengers have demanded lower fares and casual experiences. Cruise lines have listened and adjusted their crew to passenger ratios accordingly.

 

This is it - in a nutshell. With fewer staff, each gets a bigger piece of the (constantly increasing) gratuity pool - meaning that the remaining staff get increased income with nothing out of pocket to the line. Where do they go? It's easy - they either go home or, more likely, to staff the new ships continually coming n line. Of course the really valuable ones go to work in the growing hospitality industries in their own countries, where they do not have to spend months away from home and family.

 

The bottom line is that the staff providing service is, to put it harshly, being dumbed down - which makes sense since the cruising population is likewise being dumbed down. Where cruising used to be an activity for the wealthier and better educated who had alternatives if service was unsatisfactory, it is increasingly a budget vacation which increasingly attracts a customer base whose focus is increasingly on low prices rather than good service.

[zqvol]

This is a general question for all of the mass market lines and is really not a Celebrity specific question.

 

With all of the reductions in bar staff, wait staff, cabin staff, activities staff, etc. on all of the cruise lines nowadays, what is happening to the reduced staff? Does the ship that had a total crew of let's say 1300 a few years ago now only have a crew of 1200 (or less)? Or are they moved to a different position, for example manning tables throughout the ship pushing drink packages or specialty dining?

 

And since these crew members supposedly get very little direct pay from the cruise line in the first place, and mostly rely on passenger gratuities, is reducing the staff really saving the cruise lines that much money?

 

Thx.

 

Bruce

 

Someone has to staff all these new giants that cruise lines insist on building.

[BruceMuzz]

Someone has to staff all these new giants that cruise lines insist on building.

 

And there is the problem.

Cruise lines insist on increasing the workload and failing to increase salaries to cover inflation.

This keeps the cost of your cruise at the lowest possible price.

At the same time, third world hospitality companies are increasing salaries above the amounts paid by the cruise lines. Good waiters and cabins stewards can earn more money if they stay home.

 

In 2015, the cruise industry was short by about 80,000 employees. How do they cover the shortages? They force the existing employees to work longer contracts -at wages lower than they could earn at home.

With the introduction of all those mega-ships, the shortages are getting worse.

 

Cruise lines are forced to hire more and more inexperienced staff to work for substandard wages. How do you think this will affect the service on your cruise?

Edited May 29, 2016 by BruceMuzz

[GUT2407]

And there is the problem.

Cruise lines insist on increasing the workload and failing to increase salaries to cover inflation.

This keeps the cost of your cruise at the lowest possible price.

At the same time, third world hospitality companies are increasing salaries above the amounts paid by the cruise lines. Good waiters and cabins stewards can earn more money if they stay home.

 

In 2015, the cruise industry was short by about 80,000 employees. How do they cover the shortages? They force the existing employees to work longer contracts -at wages lower than they could earn at home.

With the introduction of all those mega-ships, the shortages are getting worse.

 

Cruise lines are forced to hire more and more inexperienced staff to work for substandard wages. How do you think this will affect the service on your cruise?

 

 

"force them to work longer contracts ..." interesting, how do they manage that.

Edited May 29, 2016 by GUT2407

[OzKiwiJJ]

I haven't noticed any lack of service on Princess or Celebrity, but RCI was another story, mostly in the bars.

[navybankerteacher]

And there is the problem.

...

Good waiters and cabins stewards can earn more money if they stay home.

...

 

They force the existing employees to work longer contracts -at wages lower than they could earn at home.

...

 

 

This seems to be the essence: the lines cannot "force" anything upon "GOOD" waiters and cabin stewards if they are able to earn more at home -- so, by "existing employees" you must mean inexperienced, or otherwise not very good, staff.

[slidergirl]

"force them to work longer contracts ..." interesting, how do they manage that.

 

They have the contracts set for a longer period of time. If the person doesn't want to sign to the longer contract when they are up for renewal, but wants the contract length they've always had, they are out of a job. That is how they "force" them.

 

My hotel hires dozens of seasonal workers from the Philippines, Turkey, Peru, Paraguay, Eastern Europe. Mostly for kitchen work, servers, and bellman work. They are usually on 4-5 month contracts for the winter season. The other resorts in the area do the same. These are the same hiring pools that the cruise lines go after. We also have some of our permanent bellman that are from the Philippines. They work 2 jobs up here, but send their money back home. Some of them have bought multiple houses there and would be considered probably middle-upper class. They go "home" for 2 months in the spring and 2 months in the fall and then come back here to work. Money is indeed better in the high-end hotel industry than on the cruise lines now.

[BruceMuzz]

This seems to be the essence: the lines cannot "force" anything upon "GOOD" waiters and cabin stewards if they are able to earn more at home -- so, by "existing employees" you must mean inexperienced, or otherwise not very good, staff.

 

That is nearly correct. You need to consider that the cruise line is holding the crew members'

Passports, and the crew members cannot go home unless the cruise line releases their passport AND provides them an air ticket. Technically the cruise line MUST release the passport and provide the air ticket when the contract ends -but the reality is that there is often a lot of pressure for the crew member to work longer.

The good service staff, who can get a better job at home, rarely give in to the pressure. But the inexperienced and poor performing staff cannot get a job at home; they often stay longer than contracted. You can see how this system degrades the service levels you are hoping for.

[navybankerteacher]

That is nearly correct. You need to consider that the cruise line is holding the crew members'

Passports, and the crew members cannot go home unless the cruise line releases their passport AND provides them an air ticket. Technically the cruise line MUST release the passport and provide the air ticket when the contract ends -but the reality is that there is often a lot of pressure for the crew member to work longer.

The good service staff, who can get a better job at home, rarely give in to the pressure. But the inexperienced and poor performing staff cannot get a job at home; they often stay longer than contracted. You can see how this system degrades the service levels you are hoping for.

 

That sounds like something indistinguishable from holding a person in involuntary servitude: refusing to give back the passport and provide the contracted-for air ticket upon the completion of a staff member's contracted term would put whoever ordered it in serious jeopardy -- particularly if the ship was in a U S port at the time.

[calliopecruiser]

Every crew person reduced is one less person getting wages however tiny those wages may be, one less mouth to feed, one less person using toilet paper and other supplies, one less set of uniforms to wash, one less set of sheets and towels to wash, fewer person getting a paid plane ticket home at the end of each contract.

 

Right - it's more than just the wages they're paid. It's also insurance, supplies, food, etc.

[BonnieVA]

The crew can walk off the job if they really want. They just have to buy their own plane ticket home.

[chengkp75]

The crew can walk off the job if they really want. They just have to buy their own plane ticket home.

 

In fact, crew that are in a US port on a crew visa need to be escorted by bonded agents to the airplane, so they can't really just walk off the ship.

 

While I have been out of the cruise industry for a few years, I can't go completely with what Bruce says. He does say that it is the inexperienced crew that get pressured, but it is a requirement that the cruise line (as all ship owners) must present the crew's rights within a short time of signing on. The "Seafarers' Bill of Rights" based on the Maritime Labor Convention of 2006 stipulates the employment terms and repatriation terms for all seafarers. As a signatory nation to MLC, a complaint from a crew member to the USCG, or any other government agency that a crew member would come in contact with like CBP or Immigration, would initiate an investigation of the complaint and the cruise line could be held liable for penalties and fines.

[sfaaa]

If a crew wants to leave early and doesn't complete his end of the contract, why should a cruise line pay for his airfare to go home? A deal is a deal. He signed off on it and accepted the pay, working hours and conditions that come with the contract.

[chengkp75]

If a crew wants to leave early and doesn't complete his end of the contract, why should a cruise line pay for his airfare to go home? A deal is a deal. He signed off on it and accepted the pay, working hours and conditions that come with the contract.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that repatriation was always at the employer's cost. You are correct that the employee who does not complete the contract is liable for his/her fare, but the employer must arrange it as soon as possible, with all required conditions (i.e. escorts) at the employer's expense.

[sfaaa]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that repatriation was always at the employer's cost. You are correct that the employee who does not complete the contract is liable for his/her fare, but the employer must arrange it as soon as possible, with all required conditions (i.e. escorts) at the employer's expense.

 

No need to apologize. I wasn't directing my post at you. Rather, I was taken aback by the suggestion that ship crews are being held hostage, forced to work under substandard conditions and stay on by cruise lines which of course are untrue. These staff work on cruise ships because they agree to work there and are paid accordingly under mutual consent and industry standard.

[BruceMuzz]

In fact, crew that are in a US port on a crew visa need to be escorted by bonded agents to the airplane, so they can't really just walk off the ship.

 

While I have been out of the cruise industry for a few years, I can't go completely with what Bruce says. He does say that it is the inexperienced crew that get pressured, but it is a requirement that the cruise line (as all ship owners) must present the crew's rights within a short time of signing on. The "Seafarers' Bill of Rights" based on the Maritime Labor Convention of 2006 stipulates the employment terms and repatriation terms for all seafarers. As a signatory nation to MLC, a complaint from a crew member to the USCG, or any other government agency that a crew member would come in contact with like CBP or Immigration, would initiate an investigation of the complaint and the cruise line could be held liable for penalties and fines.

 

Chief,

Technically and legally you are correct. If you happen to be working on an American flagged ship with English speaking crew from the USA, that's the way it usually happens.

But if you happen to be working on a European flagged ship with crew from Indonesia - for example - most of those crew barely read English. They do not understand most of the printed materials they receive from their employer. They only understand that if they try to walk off the ship without clearance obtained by the cruise line, they will be arrested by local immigration authorities. They also know that if that were to happen their C1-D visa would be cancelled, meaning they could never again get a job working abroad.

This puts them in a very vulnerable position - they respond to pressure.

[chengkp75]

Chief,

Technically and legally you are correct. If you happen to be working on an American flagged ship with English speaking crew from the USA, that's the way it usually happens.

But if you happen to be working on a European flagged ship with crew from Indonesia - for example - most of those crew barely read English. They do not understand most of the printed materials they receive from their employer. They only understand that if they try to walk off the ship without clearance obtained by the cruise line, they will be arrested by local immigration authorities. They also know that if that were to happen their C1-D visa would be cancelled, meaning they could never again get a job working abroad.

This puts them in a very vulnerable position - they respond to pressure.

 

I do know that cruise lines have been held accountable for violations of MLC, even Brazil has detained a ship based on crew complaints. With the social media that crew use these days, and the ability to access sites like Walker's, the crew grapevine would let crew know they have access to help. I have worked with international crew. But I do agree that there is pressure placed on crew.

Edited May 29, 2016 by chengkp75

[sail7seas]

r I wish I understood what you mean by pressure put on crew? but I do not. Using my imagination is likely not a good idea..

Edited May 29, 2016 by sail7seas

[cruising cockroach]

It's a small number but cruise hotel staff are also headed towards freighters. Generally much less work, perhaps less in tips (especially if there are no pax), and better living conditions.

 

Was on a container ship a few weeks back and the Mess Man (his title) was formerly a galley worker on HAL. These days, he only has to serve meals to the officers (and pax if any) for 3 1 hr shifts a day, help with the kitchen, clean cabins weekly, make up bed daily (if wanted - we declined as it only involved straightening the duvet and pillows which we are perfectly capable of doing ourselves). Not to mention all crew get a large (for a cruise ship) windowed private cabin with private bath above main deck.

[sfaaa]

It's a small number but cruise hotel staff are also headed towards freighters. Generally much less work, perhaps less in tips (especially if there are no pax), and better living conditions.

 

Was on a container ship a few weeks back and the Mess Man (his title) was formerly a galley worker on HAL. These days, he only has to serve meals to the officers (and pax if any) for 3 1 hr shifts a day, help with the kitchen, clean cabins weekly, make up bed daily (if wanted - we declined as it only involved straightening the duvet and pillows which we are perfectly capable of doing ourselves). Not to mention all crew get a large (for a cruise ship) windowed private cabin with private bath above main deck.

 

There you go. There are always alternate or better employment opportunities either at sea or on land if someone is so unhappy with his job. It's up to the individual to make the effort and not the employer's responsibility.

[chengkp75]

It's a small number but cruise hotel staff are also headed towards freighters. Generally much less work, perhaps less in tips (especially if there are no pax), and better living conditions.

 

Was on a container ship a few weeks back and the Mess Man (his title) was formerly a galley worker on HAL. These days, he only has to serve meals to the officers (and pax if any) for 3 1 hr shifts a day, help with the kitchen, clean cabins weekly, make up bed daily (if wanted - we declined as it only involved straightening the duvet and pillows which we are perfectly capable of doing ourselves). Not to mention all crew get a large (for a cruise ship) windowed private cabin with private bath above main deck.

 

One big difference is that on a cargo ship, all the crew need to be credentialed merchant mariners, with the attendant cost to the crew member for documentation and training. You also have to be able to live in a small "world" of only the same 20-25 people for months at a time. Very different from a cruise ship. The crew will still put in a 12 hour day.

[BonnieVA]

In fact, crew that are in a US port on a crew visa need to be escorted by bonded agents to the airplane, so they can't really just walk off the ship.

 

That's true - it depends on where they want to get off ship. I know 2 crew recently quit their jobs in a Med port. Maybe they embarked in the same country and so it wasn't too difficult with regard to visas. I don't know.

[MicCanberra]

I am wondering where this perceived lack of service is, I certainly haven't noticed any change on any of my cruises over the last 6 years. Sure it varies from cruise line to cruise line but I have not had it affect any of my cruises.:D

[GUT2407]

I am wondering where this perceived lack of service is, I certainly haven't noticed any change on any of my cruises over the last 6 years. Sure it varies from cruise line to cruise line but I have not had it affect any of my cruises.:D

 

Even from ship to ship within the same line you will find variations in service, but never had anything to complain about.

 

One Steward wasn't quite up to the standard we'd come to expect, but bot bad enough to even stop us tipping him (maybe not as much as otherwise).

 

I don't think I've seen any fall off in restaurant or bar service.