No Gratuities

[sloopsailor]

I totally agree with you but this discussion will continue forever as the different cultures will never accept that the other party might be right. If your mentality and cultural practices have always included tipping, then that's what you think is the right thing to do. As you say, in the UK people get a decent basic rate per hour, whereas in the States, they do not. It's a shame that the American argument towards tipping everyone in the service industry because the tipper feels guilty that the worker doesn't get a decent wage, doesn't persuade U.S. employers to pay their staff a living wage and not treat them as virtual slaves. But until that happens, they will be paying 20% extra for everything whilst we will object to doing so. I'm looking forward to my 2017 cruise on the Thomson Discovery 2, where the staff will be paid a living wage and the tips are included in the cruise price. Of course I shall tip extra for exceptional service if I feel that it warrants a tip.

 

Your claim that we Americans tip because of guilt is not only insulting, but ignorant as well. We tip as a show of appreciation. The system here has been in effect for generations and we all understand how, and why, it works well for us.

 

What we find especially offensive are those self–righteous foreigners, like yourself, who refuse to accept that our culture is different than theirs. That you obviously refuse to accept the richness of experiencing different cultures, and all the unique characteristics of it, without looking down your nose at the people in those cultures (your "it's a shame", "because the tipper feels guilty" and "treat them like virtual slaves" are perfect examples of this arrogance), says much more about your lack of character than of ours.

 

I would never think of ridiculing your cultural norms when I visit your country. Why do you insist on ridiculing ours? It is clear that it isn't we Americans who deserve that "Ugly" moniker when people like you so deservedly earn it by sharing your "ugly" opinions about the differences of others. :mad:

Edited October 12, 2016 by sloopsailor

[slidergirl]

Service jobs in Asia have skyrocketed in the past decade. New business-class and luxury hotels are proliferating all over. The business-class hotels have service standards and delivery that make 5-star hotels in the US seem like Motel 6. The wages are better than on the cruise ships and the hours are better and many times the workers can stay with or be very near the families. The cruise ships get the "sloppy seconds" as it were - why work on a ship on a 6-month contract 7 days/week/16 hours a day for a pittance when there are now better jobs on land? My last hotel hires probably 70% of staff as seasonal and they are largely from Asia. We hired a lot of culinary workers from The Philippines the last 2 years. Our bell staff was mostly guys from The Philippines. They'd be ones who, in the past, worked on cruise ships. Two of them did - they said they love the stability of working on land now.

[mildew1951]

..... without insisting that I know better than they do. :rolleyes:

 

Who said that? I'm merely exercising an option the cruise line offered me.

[mildew1951]

Cruise passengers have tipped less, and less, and less over the past 30 years.

 

Most of these cuts were not a result of poor service, but a result of cruise lines needing to attract larger numbers of passengers with lower incomes in order to increase profits.

This has been a great success ( for some ); the cruise lines make more profit, the passengers get cheaper cruises.

But for the service staff, workload has increased every year, while earnings and benefits have decreased every year.

The few remaining long-term service staff on ships are now earning less than 50% of what they earned 2 or 3 decades ago. Their benefits are now almost non-existent.

 

If your employer cut your earnings and benefits by over 50%, what would your reaction be?

 

Then your employer allows customers to cut your earnings even further just because they can?

 

There actually aren't very many bitter, mean, or vindictive service staff left on ships today.

They all quit, and found better paying jobs back home.

 

They were replaced by inexperienced younger staff who only took the job because they lack skills and experience to find a decent job at home. The cruise line had to hire these less than ideal employees because good service staff can no longer afford to work on cruise ships. There is a worldwide shortfall of about 250,000 cruise line employees this year. That number is growing rapidly. The cruise lines are forced to hire nearly any warm body they get their hands on.

Those "frugal" passengers who think they are so clever or righteous in failing to tip staff are creating a new environment where there are actually good reasons not to tip. Too many new staff have no experience, no skill, and really don't care if you are happy or not. If the staff hear a British or Aussie accent, they give minimal service or they just walk away. They know the odds are that no tips will be coming from those passengers. Why work for free?

 

A few decades ago a job on a cruise ship was like winning the lottery. Service staff were highly motivated to do anything and everything to avoid losing that dream job. Sure, the work was difficult, but the earnings were great. A good service crewmember could work very hard for 20 or 30 years and then comfortably retire.

 

Not anymore. The money is no longer there.

 

Today a good waiter in Jakarta can earn more money in a local hotel or restaurant, working shorter hours, with days off, and see his family every day.

Unqualified staff now take these cruise jobs because they are just slightly better than no jobs. If they lose the job for any reason, they can easily get another one with another cruise line - that is also desperate to hire any warm body they can find.

 

So if I am a young first-time service staff working on a ship, and I know or suspect that you are not going to tip me for my hard work, what will I do?

 

Try to convince my supervisor that I was doing a good job -even though you refused to tip me?

Explain to my wife that the money I will be sending home this month will be less than hoped?

Help myself to your belongings in the cabin?

Water down your drinks and sell the extra alcohol to someone else?

Go through your suitcase after you put it in the corridor on the final night?

Pull some nasty tricks with your belongings or food?

Report your credit cards stolen after you depart the ship?

Give/sell your credit card information to somebody?

 

If I get caught doing something like this, I will lose my job and be flown home - where I can get another cruise job by next week and be working on a new ship a week later.

 

If that same service staff member works hard, is treated well and tipped by you, he has nobody to blame for his situation. He took the job, expecting a certain pay. He received it.

You had a good cruise. He worked hard and got paid for it. Case closed.

 

As I posted earlier, life is a gamble.

You pay your money - or not - and you take your chances.

 

I have to say in almost 30 years of cruising on different cruise lines I have not noticed any reduction in the quality or quantity of service. As for reduced service to people with a British or Aussie accent that's just bunkum in my experience.

 

If you truly are an "industry insider" as some on here have said you have, a strange view of the world.

Edited October 12, 2016 by mildew1951

[GUT2407]

I have to say in almost 30 years of cruising on different cruise lines I have not noticed any reduction in the quality or quantity of service. As for reduced service to people with a British or Aussie accent that's just bunkum in my experience.

 

If you truly are an "industry insider" as some on here have said you have, a strange view of the world.

 

A very strange view of the world indeed.

[leono1]

Not to worry.

If the service staff heard your British accent at the start of the cruise, they already reduced their services to you, anticipating a loss of income.

There are also some very clever and creative service staff who have discovered some very interesting ways to have some fun with you even after you have departed the ship.

 

how can you say that to me? then agree with this post -

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mildew1951 View Post

I have to say in almost 30 years of cruising on different cruise lines I have not noticed any reduction in the quality or quantity of service. As for reduced service to people with a British or Aussie accent that's just bunkum in my experience.

 

If you truly are an "industry insider" as some on here have said you have' date=' a strange view of the world.

 

[b']A very strange view of the world indeed[/b].

 

its not my fault in the uk we get paid for the job we applied for fully knowing what our annual income would be as we accepted the job, not relying on the possibility of tips to meet a yearly income expectation.

 

the tipping culture that you have in the usa makes me feel like ive got to tip everyone who just stares in my direction. i dont know when to tip or if not, if i tip is it to much or not enough?.

 

i buy drinks packages on every cruise, with gratuities on top of these packages. i also spoke to many Americans that knocked their gratuities off on my last cruise.

 

the service on my last cruise, apart from an odd couple of times, was on the whole fair considering how busy some bars were.

maybe your right? maybe they heard my english accent and conveniently forgot how a queue system at the bar works??

[John Bull]

.

........... If the staff hear a British or Aussie accent, they give minimal service or they just walk away

 

I have a great deal of respect for you, Bruce, and for your depth of knowledge.

But that comment is complete and utter tosh :rolleyes:

Along with the toothbrush nonsense, it disrespects the crew as well as Brits & Aussies. :mad:

We have always received great service on all ships of all cruise lines, and generally good service on US soil. In places on US soil where service was poor, it was patently poor for all customers - a reflection on the staff, not the clientele.

 

Add other comments that you've made in the past about Brits & Aussies in other contexts & it's clear that your problem is more to do with your prejudices than relationships between crew and Brits/Aussies.

 

 

the tipping culture that you have in the usa makes me feel like ive got to tip everyone who just stares in my direction. i dont know when to tip or if not, if i tip is it to much or not enough?.

 

 

Can't agree with everything in your post, Leono, but you're not alone in being bemused by the US tipping culture. ;)

 

Americans abroad are equally bemused, witness the number of tipping questions from Americans cruising to foreign shores. As we know, those that don't do their research tend to grossly over-tip and are often milked to the max by the greedy & unscrupulous. :rolleyes:

 

JB :)

[cruisemom42]

 

What we find especially offensive are those self–righteous foreigners, like yourself, who refuse to accept that our culture is different than theirs. That you obviously refuse to accept the richness of experiencing different cultures, and all the unique characteristics of it, without looking down your nose at the people in those cultures (your "it's a shame", "because the tipper feels guilty" and "treat them like virtual slaves" are perfect examples of this arrogance), says much more about your lack of character than of ours.

 

I would never think of ridiculing your cultural norms when I visit your country. Why do you insist on ridiculing ours? It is clear that it isn't we Americans who deserve that "Ugly" moniker when people like you so deservedly earn it by sharing your "ugly" opinions about the differences of others. :mad:

 

 

Not to take this thread too much off topic, but I would like to point out that there are any number of Americans who travel abroad to Europe, Asia, Australia -- all of them places where the tipping culture is vastly different -- and insist on bringing the US-style tipping norms with them. It's a point that's discussed quite often on some of the destination forums here.

 

I assure you that Americans can be every bit as self-righteous about their own tipping habits as anyone else, without being able to realize that they are also being patronizing and are affecting local norms and culture.

[NLH Arizona]

the tipping culture that you have in the usa makes me feel like ive got to tip everyone who just stares in my direction. i dont know when to tip or if not, if i tip is it to much or not enough?.

 

No need to feel like you have to tip everyone. Do what I do when I travel to another country....research. If you research the customs of each country, you will know exactly who and where to tip and how much to tip and where not to tip. I'm always dismayed when I travel that some US citizens try to impose their tipping cultures onto other countries, just as I'm dismayed when I'm here at home and find those from other countries impose their tipping cultures here. People should embrace the differences, instead of disparaging them.

[sloopsailor]

Not to take this thread too much off topic, but I would like to point out that there are any number of Americans who travel abroad to Europe, Asia, Australia -- all of them places where the tipping culture is vastly different -- and insist on bringing the US-style tipping norms with them. It's a point that's discussed quite often on some of the destination forums here.

 

I assure you that Americans can be every bit as self-righteous about their own tipping habits as anyone else, without being able to realize that they are also being patronizing and are affecting local norms and culture.

 

And I would argue that it is because of ignorance of the local customs that cause some Americans to bring their tipping culture to those countries, instead of the people in question on this thread knowing full well what the culture is on a cruise ship and deliberately ignoring it to their advantage. In the case of tipping where it is not needed, it is actually beneficial to the service staff, while deliberately not tipping on a cruise ship is done to be beneficial to the traveler at the expense of the staff.

 

Who said that? I'm merely exercising an option the cruise line offered me.

 

Because you benefit financially by exercising that option, my comment is valid.

Edited October 12, 2016 by sloopsailor

[cbr663]

I heard today that if you stop at reception after embarking and tell them that you are not paying the on board gratuities and will tip out on your own discretion.They have you sign off and thats it.It was a Celebrity line.....any truth to this??

 

Yes, this is true. As per Celebrity's FAQs:

 

"At your discretion, the gratuity payments may be adjusted onboard at Guest Relations, in which case they will not automatically be added to your onboard SeaPass® account."

 

http://www.celebritycruises.com/frequently-asked-questions#faq551

[cruisemom42]

And I would argue that it is because of ignorance of the local customs that cause some Americans to bring their tipping culture to those countries, instead of the people in question on this thread knowing full well what the culture is on a cruise ship and deliberately ignoring it to their advantage. In the case of tipping where it is not needed, it is actually beneficial to the service staff, while deliberately not tipping on a cruise ship is done to be beneficial to the traveler at the expense of the staff.

 

 

Then how do you explain those who, after having the customs explained to them on these boards and also having various other resources pointed out to them, still defend their tipping habits abroad? It happens frequently.

 

A cultural norm is a cultural norm. You don't necessarily have to agree with it, but you should respect it.

 

While (in your opinion) it may be of benefit to tip the service staff (who are already paid a living wage, btw), it is detrimental to the locals who live in that region and whose customs are being eroded due to the insensitivity of travelers -- to the point where local are now expected to pay extra for service when that "extra" is already included in the cost of their meal/tour/stay.

[mafig]

A question for those who have worked on cruise ships.

 

Is it true that cruises that originate from the British Isles have a problem getting or retaining staff because the passengers do not tip And to a lesser degree Australia.

 

Also that in Australia they charge more for drinks because the locals try to remove the gratuities.? And for that reason they also charge more for the cruise itself?

Edited October 12, 2016 by mafig

[iheartbda]

Then how do you explain those who, after having the customs explained to them on these boards and also having various other resources pointed out to them, still defend their tipping habits abroad? It happens frequently.

 

I think you have brought up a good question. We are not talking about what any culture does or does not do on land. The cruise lines have decided on a method of paying a daily service charge, gratuities, tips, whatever you want to call it. In addition, tipping on ships can be traced back to being started by Samuel Cunard so don't blame the Americans.:D:D:D

[tinkr2]

It is so offensive when people act like a tipped position is like being a slave or uneducated. I worked as a server at a restaurant where we all had degrees. Americans understand that people can enjoy the hospitality business. When you talk to Brits and they find out you're educated, they act like you must be stupid. I would never do anything horrible to a guest but I can assure you that if you come to my bar and don't tip the first time, you won't get the same prompt friendly service the second time. No amount of "cheers and respect" pay my bills. It's in my best interest to shower extra attention on the tippers. I would assume your cabin steward feels the same.

[navybankerteacher]

It is so offensive when people act like a tipped position is like being a slave or uneducated. I worked as a server at a restaurant where we all had degrees. Americans understand that people can enjoy the hospitality business. When you talk to Brits and they find out you're educated, they act like you must be stupid. I would never do anything horrible to a guest but I can assure you that if you come to my bar and don't tip the first time, you won't get the same prompt friendly service the second time. No amount of "cheers and respect" pay my bills. It's in my best interest to shower extra attention on the tippers. I would assume your cabin steward feels the same.

 

It's good to hear the concept of incentive compensation mentioned. In an environment (such as a cruise) where good service is a major component of customer satisfaction, it is significant that "standard" tips - as represented by the daily service charge - can be reduced/eliminated in cases of unsatisfactory service, and can be supplemented by additional tips in cases of superior service.

 

Of course, some people will take advantage of the option for selfish reasons, but the approach makes fundamental good sense if you believe that poor job performance should receive less compensation while superior job performance should receive more.

[Nearpost]

I've only been on one cruise, with Princess. It was easy to navigate the tipping etiquette. We paid the auto tip, and I had some walking around cash to dispense here and there. I have no wish to judge those who tip differently, so please give me a pass if you think I over tipped or something.

 

Here is my question, since Seabourn and other luxury lines discourage tipping, may I assume they are paying their crew more than Princess cruises, and therefore all I will need is a bit of walking around cash. Or, am I under tipping, in relation to how I tip on Princess?

[sloopsailor]

Then how do you explain those who, after having the customs explained to them on these boards and also having various other resources pointed out to them, still defend their tipping habits abroad? It happens frequently.

 

A cultural norm is a cultural norm. You don't necessarily have to agree with it, but you should respect it.

 

While (in your opinion) it may be of benefit to tip the service staff (who are already paid a living wage, btw), it is detrimental to the locals who live in that region and whose customs are being eroded due to the insensitivity of travelers -- to the point where local are now expected to pay extra for service when that "extra" is already included in the cost of their meal/tour/stay.

 

I rather doubt that it "happens frequently" if they have been informed that tipping is not appropriate in places they are traveling. Most people would prefer not to spend money needlessly if they don't have to.

 

I suspect you are making an assumption without actual facts to make a point.

 

However, I fully agree that a traveler should show appropriate respect to local norms. Tip when it is normal, and don't tip when it is not. After all, a traveler is a guest in someone else's country when they are traveling. They should respect the local's way of doing things just as much as they would expect visitors to their own home to respect their customs while there. Unfortunately, it seems that too many travelers these days take little to no time learning about local customs. This can be said of travelers from all countries.

Edited October 12, 2016 by sloopsailor

[MicCanberra]

Here is my question, since Seabourn and other luxury lines discourage tipping, may I assume they are paying their crew more than Princess cruises, and therefore all I will need is a bit of walking around cash.

 

I think you are correct and from what I have just read the cash is not required either.

[GUT2407]

It's good to hear the concept of incentive compensation mentioned. In an environment (such as a cruise) where good service is a major component of customer satisfaction, it is significant that "standard" tips - as represented by the daily service charge - can be reduced/eliminated in cases of unsatisfactory service, and can be supplemented by additional tips in cases of superior service.

 

Of course, some people will take advantage of the option for selfish reasons, but the approach makes fundamental good sense if you believe that poor job performance should receive less compensation while superior job performance should receive more.

 

But compulsory tipping does nothing for incentive compensation, nor does pooling tips.

[MicCanberra]

But compulsory tipping does nothing for incentive compensation, nor does pooling tips.

 

Agreed, the comment cards are a much better form of gauging staff it is a reward for those who provide good service and a blemish for those who don't perform at all. Their Contracts would be reliant on good performance and no blemishes.

[Nearpost]

I think you are correct and from what I have just read the cash is not required either.

 

Ok, thanks. I now see why crew would be just as happy to work on a luxury cruise that's discourages tipping, as they would a princess that highly encourages it.

[navybankerteacher]

But compulsory tipping does nothing for incentive compensation, nor does pooling tips.

 

It certainly does - as long as the service charges are removable (presumably upon giving a reason), the negative aspect of incentive compensation is in play.

 

Pooling those "tips" helps create a team attitude which contributes to really superior general service.

 

Then, giving additional, in-person, tips to those who have individually contributed to your enjoyment of your cruise provides the positive aspect of incentive compensation.

 

The "carrot and stick" approach to compensation fits the business model of many lines - those who oppose on moral or ethical grounds should sail elsewhere.

 

Although I do have to wonder how many additional levels of supervision/oversight would be required for a mass-market line to ensure superior service if all staff were assured "a living wage" if there was no built-in risk-reward system. I suspect the outcome would be similar to that widely reported on NCL's US flag ship based in Hawaii - where US labor laws apply - and where lackluster service appears to be the hallmark.

[John Bull]

.......... tipping on ships can be traced back to being started by Samuel Cunard so don't blame the Americans. :D:D :D

 

I googled the feller, an interesting life.

 

Samuel Cunard was born 1787 in Halifax, Nova Scotia to a German father & Irish mother.

 

Raised in Nova Scotia, made his fortune there with various shipping, land & timber businesses.

He set up the British and North American Royal Mail Steam-Packet Company and won the UK-Canada mail contract in 1840. The paddle-steamer RMS Britannia was built in for the job in Glasgow, Scotland.

(RMS designation is for "Royal Mail Ship", same as RMS Titanic, RMS Lucitania, RMS Queen Mary, etc))

 

Kept his wife busy too - she bore nine children for him !!

 

Spent most of the late part of his life in England, made a Baronet in 1859, died in London 1865 & buried in Brompton cemetery.

 

Despite his baronetcy (which can be awarded to aliens), I can find no reference to him actually being British.

Or American.

Or Australian.

So blame it on the Canadians. :D

 

That said, CC stalwart BruceMuzz reckons it was the White Star line which first introduced tipping on ships. White Star was the Cunard line's major competitor in the 19th / early 20th century - they merged in 1934.

I can't find any reference to either of them, or any other line, introducing tipping on ships.

JB :)

[mom says]

[quote name=John Bull;51301221

 

Despite his baronetcy (which can be awarded to aliens)' date=' I can find no reference to him actually being British.

[/quote]

 

Unless I'm mistaken, prior to Confederation in 1867, all Canadians were considered British citizens, since Canada was a colony.