Questionable service dog on the Westerdam

[IndyDenise]

I have a personal Friend who trains Puppies for the South Eastern Guide dog Association.. She & her DH have the puppy for a year before they are given back to the association for further training..The Puppies wear a vest which tells the general public that they are in training..She takes them on Cruises & also brings them into stores, etc..

 

 

 

They are not official guide dogs until they are finally trained by the association with the final Handler..If the Puppy does not pass the last training by the association they are put up for adioption,,My Friend has adopted several of these dogs & they are now full fledged Therapy Dogs which go into our local Hospital & the School.. These dogs can be refused for lots of reasons as on their final training they are only given to the blind person who will eventually have them..One such dog was actually too large for the blind person who was slight & unable to handle the dog..My Friend adopted him & he made a wonderful Therapy dog..

 

 

What your friends do is wonderful but I do have a question. As you said they aren't official guide dogs while they are in training. As such they are also not protected in regards to being allowed in public.

 

So how does she get them on a cruise?

 

Do the cruise lines look the other way ?

 

The reason why I'm asking is if they do this would make sense on why there is more and more probable fake guide dogs onboard.

 

 

 

 

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[slidergirl]

What your friends do is wonderful but I do have a question. As you said they aren't official guide dogs while they are in training. As such they are also not protected in regards to being allowed in public.

 

So how does she get them on a cruise?

 

Do the cruise lines look the other way ?

 

The reason why I'm asking is if they do this would make sense on why there is more and more probable fake guide dogs onboard.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

At my hotel, we get requests from a local training group to bring their puppies "in training" to our hotel to get them comfortable in a hotel setting. We always honor this - it's necessary for these dogs to encounter many different scenarios so they may be conditioned how to behave/respond. It's within the realm of possibility that a similar request is made to other public area/means of transportation. The decision to permit/allow these animals is between the hotel/cruiseline/etc. and the trainer. Sometimes, I wish there was training/certification for allowing children into public areas...

Edited November 30, 2016 by slidergirl

[KirkNC]

...... Sometimes, I wish there was training/certification for allowing children into public areas...

 

Too funny :p

[IndyDenise]

At my hotel, we get requests from a local training group to bring their puppies "in training" to our hotel to get them comfortable in a hotel setting. We always honor this - it's necessary for these dogs to encounter many different scenarios so they may be conditioned how to behave/respond. It's within the realm of possibility that a similar request is made to other public area/means of transportation. The decision to permit/allow these animals is between the hotel/cruiseline/etc. and the trainer. Sometimes, I wish there was training/certification for allowing children into public areas...

 

 

Sometimes I wish there was training for the parents on how little snowie isn't amusing or cute or special!

 

 

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[TiogaCruiser]

Too funny :p

 

I can think of a few adults that would apply to also.:eek:

[slidergirl]

I remember the saying " you need a license to catch a fish, but any idiot can have a kid"... then you get to hear "my kids are perfect in the MDR - even the waiters come by and tell us how good they are" :rolleyes:

 

I always enjoyed the visits from the puppies in training. I was honored to be able to be a part of their training. We once had a service dog stay with us - her owner had also taught some tricks to the dog. She said she always gets kids asking about the dog, so she taught the tricks so the dog was able to interact with the kids and provide a learning moment on when the dog is working and when it is playing.

[GUT2407]

I had to comment on this! We know a pilot for a major airline who called "some" of those people pre-boarding in their wheelchairs, Hallelujah people. They see them getting on in the wheelchair and jumping up, grabbing their bags and racing off the plane at the other end. Hallelujah, I'm healed!

 

For those who need help with pre-boarding, these folks are making others more cynical about the whole process, just like the fake service dogs. What is wrong with people???

 

Your pilot mate is just plain rude and judgemental then.

 

I've had similar comments from people who know nothing.

 

I can walk for an hour without problems, but if I have to stand in one place more than about 5 minutes I can collapse with no warning, all due to a spinal problem, following an infection that nearly killed me.

 

So I'm one of those who often asks for ass istence in boarding, where there is lots of just standing, but then am fine.

[serendipity1499]

What your friends do is wonderful but I do have a question. As you said they aren't official guide dogs while they are in training. As such they are also not protected in regards to being allowed in public.

 

So how does she get them on a cruise?

 

Do the cruise lines look the other way ?

 

The reason why I'm asking is if they do this would make sense on why there is more and more probable fake guide dogs onboard.

 

sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

At my hotel, we get requests from a local training group to bring their puppies "in training" to our hotel to get them comfortable in a hotel setting. We always honor this - it's necessary for these dogs to encounter many different scenarios so they may be conditioned how to behave/respond. It's within the realm of possibility that a similar request is made to other public area/means of transportation. The decision to permit/allow these animals is between the hotel/cruiseline/etc. and the trainer. Sometimes, I wish there was training/certification for allowing children into public areas...

 

Indy Denise, Next time I see my Friend I'll ask her.. Assume that it's exactly the same as Slider Girls Hotel.. I know that they wear a vest which shows it as a Guide Dog in Training..These LAB Puppies are wonderfully behaved..

[IndyDenise]

Indy Denise, Next time I see my Friend I'll ask her.. Assume that it's exactly the same as Slider Girls Hotel.. I know that they wear a vest which shows it as a Guide Dog in Training..These LAB Puppies are wonderfully behaved..

 

I bet they are! Or they wouldn't be considered guide dog material. Of course it is the time and energy your friend puts into them that makes them great dogs!

 

I know someone with a PTSD dog ( a Golden ). He is former military. That dog literally has saved the owner from losing it and possibly harming others.

[HokiePoq]

The behaviour of true service animals (or comfort animals) is very different from being "pulled along on a long leash". A LOT of training has gone into such animals, they are alert and attentive at all times and always walk close to their human companion. I believe that is the point igraf was trying to make, not that someone did not show a need for a service animal, but that it did not seem to be one.

 

Yes. Took a flight and cruise with a genuine service dog (and his family) a few years ago. One would never know the dog was there as it was trained so well. Also know a "comfort dog" that a disabled vet I know has. She cannot be separated from it due to PTSD. It is also trained and well-behaved.

What was described sounds more like someone's pet.

I realize that we cannot always see the handicap. I recall the man who vigorously returned to his handicapped spot the day I had to drive my post-op self to the doctor's office and walk four blocks with crutches to find a parking space as all the handicapped ones were full. Whatever the unseen handicap, he was sure having an easier time of it than I was. I think people use those tags when anyone in the household has them....and the "service dog" vests are sold on the internet. I do not know about HAL but I doubt that all lines check the validity of them for fear of being sued.

[Tinknock50]

True, legit therapy dogs are often in strollers, etc. Unfortunately, with the "me" generation going through our colleges now, who require safe rooms and therapy when something doesn't go their way, I have a feeling we're going to start seeing more of these dogs in the near future. :rolleyes:

 

Snowflakes? LOL

[LMaxwell]

Snowflakes? LOL

 

The Boomers are the me generation.

[SonnekeH]

I had to comment on this! We know a pilot for a major airline who called "some" of those people pre-boarding in their wheelchairs, Hallelujah people. They see them getting on in the wheelchair and jumping up, grabbing their bags and racing off the plane at the other end. Hallelujah, I'm healed!

 

For those who need help with pre-boarding, these folks are making others more cynical about the whole process, just like the fake service dogs. What is wrong with people???

 

How ugly this is. How cynical people have become. I have NEVER seen people pre-board in a wheelchair to get a good spot for their carryon luggage. Most NEED HELP with their luggage as well, as I do. And how wonderful it would be, to jump up, grab your bags and race off!!!! A true miracle, and yes, definitely a Hallelujah moment. But in my wildest dreams the possibility of this miracle happening are nil to none.

Being handicapped is no picnic. And......being handicapped and daring to want to keep travelling is definitrly not for the faint hearted. Obtaining wheelchair assistance through a good TA is not difficult. But then, FINDING wheelchair assistance once you get to the airport, that is where the fun starts! They are never found near the doors at "Arrivals". You have to

FIND an airline rep to ask where you need to go. And that is usually a long walk, through large crowds. WALKING....dragging large handbag (with boarding pass passports etc.), carryon, cane and WALKER. And someone to travel with is definitely a MUST. Finally you get to the area for "wheelchair assistance", You get send to a special roped off line JUST FOR YOU, NO ONE ELSE THERE! No Long line up snaking around the building! How wonderful is that? And then the fun begins.......because you are "so special" A wicket opens up right in front of you, to check in your checked bags. And a smiling clerk shouts "next in line over here please!" She is waving her arms at passengers way over THERE, looking right through you like you dont exist. Be brave. Step right up BEFORE anyone else gets there first. Or you will be there forever and miss your flight. The rest of the way, through customs and security, is definitely easier. And you get put on the plane first. But you are the last one off. So you get to see all other passenbers with disabilities, coming on AND going off. And I have NEVER seen a HALLELUJAH moment. My eye sight is very good! It is my spine and other problems. But what do YOU care, and it is no business of yours.

Of course I am talking about a large international airport. Things might be different at a smaller venue.

I know I am being spitefull, but I can't help it. I hope someday you, and that ignorant spiteful pilot will be in the same position I am in.

And do I have a story to tell about wheelchair assistance OFF the plane. About rude unhelpful clerks, about being abandoned in a deserted dimly lit area........but that is another story. Also the reason I will never fly again and cancelled further cruises.:mad::rolleyes::(:confused::eek:

Of course I am talking about a large international airport

[wander]

I have written several entries in support of the "unseen" disabilities and feel very strongly about our need to be sensitive to this. However, I am also very disappointed when I learn of people gaming the system. (I worked in Rehabilitation Medicine for 10 years - saw it all, or almost all.) However, I did personally see an example that disappointed me.

 

Boarding for a cruise last year we arrived at the waiting area for boarding after being cleared, checked in, etc. I was in boarding Group 1. A man in a wheelchair pushed by a port employee arrived in the Group 1 waiting area. He was very loudly protesting that he needed to be wheeled onto the ship and when asked, insisted he could not possibly walk onboard. OK, so he was "parked" in the adjacent "need assistance boarding" area. When our Group was approached by and employee and told we could board, he saw this and yelled out that he should go first as he needed help. When the agent said, and we heard this, that he would be boarded as soon as the rest of Group 1 was loaded, he arose from his wheelchair and quickly walked and pushed his way to the head of the line, in front of others, saying he was there first (he was not) and would not wait. The crowd reaction was interesting and not supportive. Now, what he needs actually were are unknown, but his very public behavior did not help others who definitely have special needs, even if he is one of them. Yes, maybe he legitimately needs the use of the chair at times, but to instantly flip for his own convenience left some questions. Probably got on board 5 minutes sooner at the most. It takes all kinds.

Edited December 1, 2016 by wander

[slidergirl]

How ugly this is. How cynical people have become. I have NEVER seen people pre-board in a wheelchair to get a good spot for their carryon luggage. Most NEED HELP with their luggage as well, as I do. And how wonderful it would be, to jump up, grab your bags and race off!!!! A true miracle, and yes, definitely a Hallelujah moment. But in my wildest dreams the possibility of this miracle happening are nil to none.

Being handicapped is no picnic. And......being handicapped and daring to want to keep travelling is definitrly not for the faint hearted. Obtaining wheelchair assistance through a good TA is not difficult. But then, FINDING wheelchair assistance once you get to the airport, that is where the fun starts! They are never found near the doors at "Arrivals". You have to

FIND an airline rep to ask where you need to go. And that is usually a long walk, through large crowds. WALKING....dragging large handbag (with boarding pass passports etc.), carryon, cane and WALKER. And someone to travel with is definitely a MUST. Finally you get to the area for "wheelchair assistance", You get send to a special roped off line JUST FOR YOU, NO ONE ELSE THERE! No Long line up snaking around the building! How wonderful is that? And then the fun begins.......because you are "so special" A wicket opens up right in front of you, to check in your checked bags. And a smiling clerk shouts "next in line over here please!" She is waving her arms at passengers way over THERE, looking right through you like you dont exist. Be brave. Step right up BEFORE anyone else gets there first. Or you will be there forever and miss your flight. The rest of the way, through customs and security, is definitely easier. And you get put on the plane first. But you are the last one off. So you get to see all other passenbers with disabilities, coming on AND going off. And I have NEVER seen a HALLELUJAH moment. My eye sight is very good! It is my spine and other problems. But what do YOU care, and it is no business of yours.

Of course I am talking about a large international airport. Things might be different at a smaller venue.

I know I am being spitefull, but I can't help it. I hope someday you, and that ignorant spiteful pilot will be in the same position I am in.

And do I have a story to tell about wheelchair assistance OFF the plane. About rude unhelpful clerks, about being abandoned in a deserted dimly lit area........but that is another story. Also the reason I will never fly again and cancelled further cruises.:mad::rolleyes::(:confused::eek:

Of course I am talking about a large international airport

 

Sorry your experience at a "large international airport" was not good. The times I had to use assistance at two large European international airports, they were exceptionally good. Wheelchair and assistant were right there for me when I got out of the taxi all the way to the plane, from plane to the hotel for the overnight, pick up at appointed time from hotel to airport, all through passport control and security, onto plane... I did not have a TA, I did this on my own and with my ex helping with the hotel (he worked for a French company and his boss was French, so he got the hotel stuff straight). Most international hotels have a Special Service section and you do have to make arrangements ahead of time - you cannot expect to just show up to the airport and get assistance. As for the one large domestic airport and one medium domestic airport, I had assistance waiting for me, take me though I&C and back through security, to a lounge and then back to the gate. I never felt ignored - on the contrary. Especially in the European airports I had to traverse. Even Security was very professional and respectful and apologized for the inconvenience of having to be groped in the wheelchair. A far cry from our TSA.

As for the "miracle" flights, they are well known among frequent flyers. There are certain routes where they occur frequently. Sorry to be cynical, but when you have 15+ people in wheelchairs to board, and only 3 use wheelchair assistance when they deplane AND they are carrying their own bags, there is definitely some shenanigans going on. And, unfortunately, those who legitimately use the service are caught with the scammers. I will say, in my looking at the lines at times, there are two distinct ethnic groups that seem to be in the miracle category...

[Tinknock50]

The Boomers are the me generation.

 

True....the "me" generation are the parents of the current "Snowflakes".:)

[Lizzie68]

Recent experiences with my DH in a wheelchair (yes, he can walk short distance, cannot stand long, has lots of pain) at airports is there is no wheelchair assistance until after security - if then. First you have to stand in line to check in, then remind that you requested wheelchair assistance, then wait for a golf cart. That drops you at security, where you get off and go through (you used to be able to go through security in a wheelchair) and then you wait again in a separate area for another golf cart which takes you to your gate. Very few wheelchairs anymore. This has applied both sides of the world.

On rare occasions, there has been a wheelchair waiting at the door of the plane on disembarkation (you have to wait and get off last if you have requested assistance), but often you have to get to a point further away and then may get a wheelchair or more likely golf cart. Then you do the whole rigamarole in reverse until you are out of the airport.

 

It isn't easy, no matter where the airport is. My experience has been that no one asks for wheelchair assistance when not necessary and I have never observed anyone who received it on boarding to rush off on foot when the plane arrives at the gate.

 

Never ever judge by appearances. While you may not think someone needs a wheelchair you no idea whatsoever what the handicap is. Most are not visible or evident. And I will say that our negative experiences with able-bodied fellow passengers outnumbers the positive. We've been pushed, pummelled, cursed at for being slow, and even had one woman push me aside and jump into a chair for accompanying wheelchair companion at the boarding gate that was designated as such, and threw her jacket over the signage, to stop me sitting with my husband. But karma arrived by way of a clerk who saw the whole thing, came and asked for our boarding passes and put us into first class because she was so disgusted with what had happened. Fellow CC members saw this, boy did it make our day.

 

So the person who brought up this issue and the comments by the pilot - a pox on both your houses.:D And I have to wonder how a pilot actually observed such a thing - they are usually pretty busy on arrival.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Lizzie68

[GUT2407]

Recent experiences with my DH in a wheelchair (yes, he can walk short distance, cannot stand long, has lots of pain) at airports is there is no wheelchair assistance until after security - if then. First you have to stand in line to check in, then remind that you requested wheelchair assistance, then wait for a golf cart. That drops you at security, where you get off and go through (you used to be able to go through security in a wheelchair) and then you wait again in a separate area for another golf cart which takes you to your gate. Very few wheelchairs anymore. This has applied both sides of the world.

On rare occasions, there has been a wheelchair waiting at the door of the plane on disembarkation (you have to wait and get off last if you have requested assistance), but often you have to get to a point further away and then may get a wheelchair or more likely golf cart. Then you do the whole rigamarole in reverse until you are out of the airport.

 

It isn't easy, no matter where the airport is. My experience has been that no one asks for wheelchair assistance when not necessary and I have never observed anyone who received it on boarding to rush off on foot when the plane arrives at the gate.

 

Never ever judge by appearances. While you may not think someone needs a wheelchair you no idea whatsoever what the handicap is. Most are not visible or evident. And I will say that our negative experiences with able-bodied fellow passengers outnumbers the positive. We've been pushed, pummelled, cursed at for being slow, and even had one woman push me aside and jump into a chair for accompanying wheelchair companion at the boarding gate that was designated as such, and threw her jacket over the signage, to stop me sitting with my husband. But karma arrived by way of a clerk who saw the whole thing, came and asked for our boarding passes and put us into first class because she was so disgusted with what had happened. Fellow CC members saw this, boy did it make our day.

 

So the person who brought up this issue and the comments by the pilot - a pox on both your houses.:D And I have to wonder how a pilot actually observed such a thing - they are usually pretty busy on arrival.

 

Well said.

[VennDiagram]

I will add another voice to the chorus of "don't judge". A few times I've had to use pre-board (not a wheelchair, just onto the plane before the crowd). Trust me, there is nothing to recommend it. Longer time sitting squashed into a coach-class seat, view of a bunch of butts, more chances for people to (wrongly) tell me I'm in the wrong seat .... it actually feels like it adds hours to the flight time. And in my case, it adds no pleasure to what is already an excruciating event.

[WeRockChalkKU]

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SFO-adds-therapy-pig-to-greet-travelers-10695602.php

[doublebzz]

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SFO-adds-therapy-pig-to-greet-travelers-10695602.php

 

Looks like it would make some mighty fine bacon.

[lostspoke]

Do all service dogs wear a harness, or do some use a leash? I'm used to seeing guide dogs for blind people, and they have the harness with the loop instead of a leash. The dog knows that when the owner holds the harness, it's time to go to work. And most people know that when the dog is on the harness they shouldn't approach or pet it.

 

But, like the dog the OP saw, some alleged service dogs are kept on a long leash. I've seen one in the supermarket I go to, and that dog was acting like any other dog, sniffing around, not paying attention to the woman at the other end of the long leash. So how is that service?

 

The other dodge people use is to say the dog is "in training" to be a service dog. I saw one of those recently in a botanic garden that doesn't allow dogs. I asked a staff member I know about it and was told the dog was "in training." The woman was with a group of kids on a tour and was making NO attempt to control the dog. That isn't good training.

 

 

It's really a shame, because the real service dogs do so much good, But after you see a few cheaters, it does make you think twice about the others you see.

***

 

We are not very familiar with proper reply/posts procedure but will try. We have a service dog. She is tiny and does her job well. We request no interference by those with "well meaning intentions of saying hello" with her as she is working most, if not all, of the time. Our perspective is that having a small service dog has it own cumbersome problems as many just cant/dont read the vest sign. We don't need a vest but use it as a courtesy to others we use it, yet some will still continue to make some kind of interface (that could be it's own thread) as we try to not be intrusive and as invisible as possible. I have told my wife that we should have had a "fugly" dog and we would have less trouble, but that again is another thread.

 

As to the long leash, I personally do not understand it. Your service animal should be close at your side and paying attention to you. I remember the cruise with the magician with with two small dogs. We were on the same one with our min-pin. It was interesting as his "potty" time was often coincidental with ours. We made it a point to avoid interference for the two "patchs of grass" which we also requested. And yes, your dog is to poddy on command, be it number 1 or number 2.

 

I sincerely hope that any abuse of the system does not inhibit those that require the use of the same.

 

A little anecdote (not funny). On that same cruise with the magician and his wonder dogs we came home to port to disembark and after the "port authorities" came onboard with their inspection dog, there was a deposit made near their location in the jewelry area. Since we were making one of our last exercise walk arounds, we came across it. It was surrounded with chairs and a "spill" or some kind of announcement was made about it. We were flabbergasted as we felt this was an incident to only exasperate possible opposition to service animal use. I was so temped to clean up the "incident" but my wife demanded that I don't as, if witnessed", it would appear that we had the issue to resolve. However the "leavings" of a Beagle are significantly larger than that of a 5 lb minpin. But our none responsible guilt was still felt.

 

I am a bit rambling, but just sharing some thoughts and historical items.

 

Tommy

[lindaler]

We are thinking about cruising with our service dog. I am getting scared now listening to all of these comments. I don't look like I need a service dog but I do. We are currently waiting to hear the results of HAL since we have submitted our request to bring our service dog. It will be our first trip with her. We got her in Feb. of this year, as a service dog so it's not that we are bringing a pet. She is important to me to be able to deal with being able to continue to cruise. I worry about her messing up on her first cruise or me messing up but if HAL lets us come we will continue to learn and be able to continue to cruise. Do dogs get sea sick?

[lostspoke]

If she flys and rides in the car without any issue, then she should be alright (e.g. no sea sick issue). The training facility should have mentioned something also and you may want to ask them for your own peace of mind. Obviously being trained to be a service dog, she will not "mess up" as her social skills for restaurants, stores, and other public interfaces is already drilled into place. Just relax and she will be relaxed too and you can enjoy the cruise with the comfort of knowing she is maintaining your ability to do the same.

[lindaler]

Thank you for the encouragement. She does fine in everything but she was trained a long ways from the ocean up in the mountains, so they just said she should be fine. We have only been together for five months so I do worry.