Who is HAL's new breed of customers?

[KirkNC]

Economics would dictate that if HAL becomes a line of "medium sized" ships, HAL will de facto have to become more expensive than their current mass-market competition. The fixed costs per passenger are higher on medium sized ships than on large ships. Someone in Princess management said to me quite clearly -- in regard to selling some of the smaller R-class ships -- that the larger ships of the line were subsidizing the smaller ones. They couldn't charge fares that would be higher enough to ensure the same degree to profitability on the small ships because people wouldn't pay it (using a mass market line model).

 

HAL has somewhat mitigated this by maintained older medium-sized ships; i.e., the initial cost of the ship is less of a factor.

But if what you traditionalists want is a HAL line of smaller and medium sized ships (which at some point would have to be replaced with newer vessels) that ONLY sail longer itineraries -- again, not the cash cow that the shorter Caribbean/Alaskan itineraries traditionally have been) -- then you are going to wind up with a line that's considerably more expensive. (Think Viking Ocean....)

 

Other than in fantasies, I really don't think it's possibly for HAL to provide long interesting itineraries on new-build medium-sized ships without charging more for them -- and if they do that, they will lose some of you who've made it clear that cost is definitely a key factor. AND they will have to offer more of what this itinerary-seeking customer with the money to pay for long cruises will want.

 

Current strategies of similar lines would seem to suggest that key points would not necessarily be entertainment but availability of very good food (either included or at extra cost); more modern, deluxe finishes; spa services; connectivity, etc.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think HAL may have missed an opportunity to become a Viking Ocean-type brand. With additional larger ships on order, it would appear to me that the decision has already been made NOT to go in that direction. So I think if you're going to speculate about who is the 'coming' passenger that HAL will be targeting, you have to do so in the frame of reference of the newer, larger ships that are planned....

 

Best post in this whole thread.

[OlsSalt]

Good point.

 

The primary difference between Crystal and HAL for us low-rent cabin Crystal passengers is the high-end finishes found on Crystal ships. Crystal ships themselves are certainly not better and their low-rent cabins are significantly inferior to HAL ships, nor are their itineraries any more compelling, but the Crystal on board decor is far more appealing.

 

That might be all that needs to be changed to take the smaller, older HAL ships into a new more boutique market, that offers virtually everything else Crystal claims to offer but still at a price point far less than Crystal because a lot of their add-on frou frou is not worth the extra expense.

 

There remains a market for the old Voyages of Discovery and Marco Polo-type smaller, enrichment-only ships that is still out there, unmet by any competition so far. Voyages of Discovery failed when they bought a very unsatisfactory replacement ship for their unique brand of exploration cruising and got hit with the looming Brexit English pound exchange problems.

 

Could this enrichment-travel only market fill at least one of the aging, smaller HAL ships by cutting down on overall staffing needs and concentrating on a core focus only?

[kevingastreich]

I am not sure when your last cruise was, but mine was a month ago on the Eurodam. We enjoy drinks before dinner in the Crows nest and always enjoyed the music there, but the last few cruises on HAL there was none and no appetizers. My cruise on the NA 3 years ago had the piano bar and the sing along which we thoroughly enjoyed and each night it was packed

 

Just got off the NA. Plenty of hot appetizers every night in Crows Nest during Happy Hour (4-5). Piano bar (Andy from Scotland) was packed every night too.

[SusieKay]

Good point.

 

The primary difference between Crystal and HAL for us low-rent cabin Crystal passengers is the high-end finishes found on Crystal ships. Crystal ships themselves are certainly not better and their low-rent cabins are significantly inferior to HAL ships, nor are their itineraries any more compelling, but the Crystal on board decor is far more appealing.

 

That might be all that needs to be changed to take the smaller, older HAL ships into a new more boutique market, that offers virtually everything else Crystal claims to offer but still at a price point far less than Crystal because a lot of their add-on frou frou is not worth the extra expense.

 

There remains a market for the old Voyages of Discovery and Marco Polo-type smaller, enrichment-only ships that is still out there, unmet by any competition so far. Voyages of Discovery failed when they bought a very unsatisfactory replacement ship for their unique brand of exploration cruising and got hit with the looming Brexit English pound exchange problems.

 

Could this enrichment-travel only market fill at least one of the aging, smaller HAL ships by cutting down on overall staffing needs and concentrating on a core focus only?

 

How nice to see the name of the original Marco Polo once again. The two cruises we took on her, to the Med and Scandinavia, remain our very favorites.

 

We loved the included pre and post cruise hotel stays, indepth shore excursions, fabulous crew, interesting mix of passengers and even a creaky older ship with no speciality dining, no balconies, and entertaining but not flashy shows.

 

If she was still sailing we would go again in a heartbeat!!

Edited May 1, 2017 by SusieKay

[north29]

Not sure how to reply, HAL is appealing to us in a different way, we are Long time X and RC cruisers, we are in our 70's but still highly active both in sports and cultural events. HAL appeals to us, because of the unique itineraries that RC or X do not offer. My only problem is that we have all the loyalty benefits of RCCL cruise lines. So pricing could be a problem for us. Having said that sometimes the itinerary out weights the cost.

For young cruisers, not retired, only the shorter cruises would be a option, but the old tradition of cruising are going, going and will be partially gone, because the cruiser are coming from another generation with significantly different value and desires.

I think my signature kinda sums up my feelings about change.

[Tampa Girl]

Just got off the NA. Plenty of hot appetizers every night in Crows Nest during Happy Hour (4-5). Piano bar (Andy from Scotland) was packed every night too.

 

The NA hasn't yet been retrofitted. It will be quite different afterwards.

[Tampa Girl]

For young cruisers, not retired, only the shorter cruises would be a option, but the old tradition of cruising are going, going and will be partially gone, because the cruiser are coming from another generation with significantly different value and desires.

I think my signature kinda sums up my feelings about change.

 

You may be painting the younger generation with too wide a brush. Values and desires frequently change with age. I am also reminded of our 2013 15-day TA on the Ryndam. Aboard was a young couple(late 20's - early 30's), traveling with two toddlers. Unusual, yes, but an example of why one can't always typecast a particular generation.

[POA1]

Just got off the NA. Plenty of hot appetizers every night in Crows Nest during Happy Hour (4-5). Piano bar (Andy from Scotland) was packed every night too.

Same thing with the Eurodam in December. They offered appetizers in both the Crow's Nest and the Ocean Bar. It's possible that they offered them in the Gallery Bar and Billboard Onboard Bar, but we were only on for a week and we can only drink so many places before dinner. ;) The Eurodam has had the updates. (I think it was first to get them.)

 

It's my understanding that appetizers came out twice. Once before early seating, and once before late. We actually partook of the early ones. The late ones would have spoiled our appetite for dinner.

 

Depending on when you arrive, you might miss the appetizers. You can always ask your server. The magic window seems to be about a half hour or so before each fixed seating.

[aliaschief]

On our October/Nov 2016 Eurodam Trans Atlantic from Europe to Florida we were offered hot appetizers every night. Our usual water hole was Pinnacle Bar from 7 PM-7:50 PM as we had late fixed dining.

[doone]

On our October/Nov 2016 Eurodam Trans Atlantic from Europe to Florida we were offered hot appetizers every night. Our usual water hole was Pinnacle Bar from 7 PM-7:50 PM as we had late fixed dining.

 

Maybe we needed to change our venue from the Crowe's Nest to Pinnacle Bar as there was no apps at the Crowe's nest when we were there 7-8 pm.

[cruisemom42]

 

There remains a market for the old Voyages of Discovery and Marco Polo-type smaller, enrichment-only ships that is still out there, unmet by any competition so far. Voyages of Discovery failed when they bought a very unsatisfactory replacement ship for their unique brand of exploration cruising and got hit with the looming Brexit English pound exchange problems.

 

Could this enrichment-travel only market fill at least one of the aging, smaller HAL ships by cutting down on overall staffing needs and concentrating on a core focus only?

 

Having cruised on both Swan Hellenic Minerva and on Voyages to Antiquity's similarly sized Aegean Odyssey, I'm not sure how large that enrichment-travel market really is or how "unmet" the need is. Both Minerva and VTA's Aegean Odyssey seem to rarely sail completely booked, and each of those ships only carries about 350 passengers at capacity. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more enrichment (lectures, special tours, etc.) aboard ships, but not sure how widespread that preference is. (And of course Swan Hellenic has now ceased operations; it remains to be seen if the line will be resuscitated....)

 

As I think you know, I've found a 'home' so to speak with VTA. I've just gotten off a cruise with them that sailed through the entirety of the "Middle Sea", with top-shelf lecturers that included John Julius Norwich (author of several acclaimed books on the history of the Mediterranean including books on Sicily, a "short" history of Byzantium [in 3 volumes!] and more... Lord Norwich was actually an advisor to VTA in helping them set up some of their itineraries and he was a rare treat as a lecturer. Also Justin Marozzi, author of "The Way of Herodotus": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NY650G/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1. Plus a third lecturer (Daniel Munoz) who covered topics on El-Andaluz, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Spanish artists Dali and Lorca.

 

I also would suggest that it requires a different model and a different management mind-set to manage a line with this focus. I'm not sure it would benefit HAL to, in effect, create a "line within a line". VTA hires, for example, a shore excursion team that are nearly all specialists in archaeology, classics, etc. They are usually young but very enthusiastic and knowledgeable (some have even provided pinch-hit lectures on various topics). In general, management is much more personable -- as is needed and expected on a smaller ship. That is to say, management actually deal with problems, and deal with them swiftly and well, without having to "check with HQ".

[iancal]

That is an interesting perspective. We are willing to pay to get something different, better, less mass market. And we have certainly done this from time to time.

 

Would we do it on a mass market line like HAL? No, because it does not exist, nor does it appear to fit their business model (whatever it is. We feel the same about HAL's competitors. Pure vanilla with a few tweeks.

 

At the end of the we believe that the only HAL differentiators are itinerary and size of ship. And the latter is on a course for elimination.

[EDLOS]

Maybe we needed to change our venue from the Crowe's Nest to Pinnacle Bar as there was no apps at the Crowe's nest when we were there 7-8 pm.

 

Yes, change your venue. I believe there are only APPS at the 4-5 Happy Hour in the Crow's Nest. None after !

[Bostonjetset]

Having cruised on both Swan Hellenic Minerva and on Voyages to Antiquity's similarly sized Aegean Odyssey, I'm not sure how large that enrichment-travel market really is or how "unmet" the need is. Both Minerva and VTA's Aegean Odyssey seem to rarely sail completely booked, and each of those ships only carries about 350 passengers at capacity. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more enrichment (lectures, special tours, etc.) aboard ships, but not sure how widespread that preference is. (And of course Swan Hellenic has now ceased operations; it remains to be seen if the line will be resuscitated....)

 

As I think you know, I've found a 'home' so to speak with VTA. I've just gotten off a cruise with them that sailed through the entirety of the "Middle Sea", with top-shelf lecturers that included John Julius Norwich (author of several acclaimed books on the history of the Mediterranean including books on Sicily, a "short" history of Byzantium [in 3 volumes!] and more... Lord Norwich was actually an advisor to VTA in helping them set up some of their itineraries and he was a rare treat as a lecturer. Also Justin Marozzi, author of "The Way of Herodotus": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NY650G/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1. Plus a third lecturer (Daniel Munoz) who covered topics on El-Andaluz, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Spanish artists Dali and Lorca.

 

I also would suggest that it requires a different model and a different management mind-set to manage a line with this focus. I'm not sure it would benefit HAL to, in effect, create a "line within a line". VTA hires, for example, a shore excursion team that are nearly all specialists in archaeology, classics, etc. They are usually young but very enthusiastic and knowledgeable (some have even provided pinch-hit lectures on various topics). In general, management is much more personable -- as is needed and expected on a smaller ship. That is to say, management actually deal with problems, and deal with them swiftly and well, without having to "check with HQ".

 

Not to stray off topic but your voyage with VTA sounds absolutely wonderful! Truly a unique experience on a line that can focus strictly on those types of cruises. This would likely be too specialized for HAL to even consider without a complete revamp of their business model.

 

However, for those who value educational experiences on a ship, Cunard offers wonderful lecturers on their transatlantic crossings [along with beautifully trained classical musicians] so that may work for those who want something a tad more upmarket than HAL but not quite at the full-on luxury level [or price point].

[OlsSalt]

Having cruised on both Swan Hellenic Minerva and on Voyages to Antiquity's similarly sized Aegean Odyssey, I'm not sure how large that enrichment-travel market really is or how "unmet" the need is. Both Minerva and VTA's Aegean Odyssey seem to rarely sail completely booked, and each of those ships only carries about 350 passengers at capacity. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more enrichment (lectures, special tours, etc.) aboard ships, but not sure how widespread that preference is. (And of course Swan Hellenic has now ceased operations; it remains to be seen if the line will be resuscitated....)

 

As I think you know, I've found a 'home' so to speak with VTA. I've just gotten off a cruise with them that sailed through the entirety of the "Middle Sea", with top-shelf lecturers that included John Julius Norwich (author of several acclaimed books on the history of the Mediterranean including books on Sicily, a "short" history of Byzantium [in 3 volumes!] and more... Lord Norwich was actually an advisor to VTA in helping them set up some of their itineraries and he was a rare treat as a lecturer. Also Justin Marozzi, author of "The Way of Herodotus": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NY650G/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1. Plus a third lecturer (Daniel Munoz) who covered topics on El-Andaluz, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Spanish artists Dali and Lorca.

 

I also would suggest that it requires a different model and a different management mind-set to manage a line with this focus. I'm not sure it would benefit HAL to, in effect, create a "line within a line". VTA hires, for example, a shore excursion team that are nearly all specialists in archaeology, classics, etc. They are usually young but very enthusiastic and knowledgeable (some have even provided pinch-hit lectures on various topics). In general, management is much more personable -- as is needed and expected on a smaller ship. That is to say, management actually deal with problems, and deal with them swiftly and well, without having to "check with HQ".

 

Did the current loss of both Swan Hellenic and Voyages of Discovery now still leave a critical mass of passengers who do want a replacement?

 

I got the impression VOD had many full bookings when they just recently collapsed, mainly due to exchange rate problems, which also indicated they were operating on slim margins. But they had also chosen a very poor design replacement ship for their unique cruise brand too, which was not helpful.

 

The thought is for HAL to offer this type of smaller ship, enrichment program as an option just like it offers the smaller Prinsendam as their small "luxury" option as part of a more diverse array of internal brand choices. Certainly Roads Scholars seems to prefer the smaller HAL ships so some sort of consolidation of this scattered market may just work.

 

(BTW: still kicking myself that we canceled our VTA cruise that went to Syria back during that very narrow window when she first started sailing. The Middle Sea was a great read. However, I am still struggling page by page through The Greenlander.)

[Hlitner]

We think that the nature of the cruise industry demands very deep pockets to successfully operate a cruise company. Many small companies have either totally folded or were taken over....in the past few decades. Most of the smaller cruise lines today...are part of larger corporations or have lots of financial backing. The business model of buying old ships and using them for unique cruises...does not seem to do well in the long term....especially if they are dependent on the North American cruises. While some of us are pretty adventurous, many Americans now are only interested in newer vessels with lots of balconies and other amenities. Even with HAL our major issue with the older ships are the small number of balcony cabins...and their excessive cost. As much as we love the Prinsendam (we have spent exactly 200 days on that vessel) we miss having regular (at normal prices) cabins with balconies. HAL recognizes this and has, accordingly, adjusted their newbuilds to provide lots of balcony cabins. Now that HAL has finally ended balcony smokng we would prefer to have a balcony cabin on all of our HAL cruises. But we are not willing to pay suite prices...just for a balcony.

 

Look at the lines that are now collapsing, and most of them are using older ships with few balconies.

Hank

[OlsSalt]

There is a market for the older, lower amenity cruise ships who do smaller enrichment itineraries. Hope HAL looks into including this among their diverse range of adventure travel offerings as they describe themselves in the 2016 CCL Annual Report. There is a customer base now abandoned by the loss of these scattered smaller enrichment cruise options that can be consolidated.

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

We think it is the Baby Boomers

[navybankerteacher]

How nice to see the name of the original Marco Polo once again. The two cruises we took on her, to the Med and Scandinavia, remain our very favorites.

 

We loved the included pre and post cruise hotel stays, indepth shore excursions, fabulous crew, interesting mix of passengers and even a creaky older ship with no speciality dining, no balconies, and entertaining but not flashy shows.

 

If she was still sailing we would go again in a heartbeat!!

 

She IS still sailing - primarily one and two week itineraries embarking at smaller UK -- now with Cruise & Maritime voyages. I sailed her Istanbul-Athens in 1996 when she was with Orient Lines- great itinerary:Kanakkale for the ruins of Troy, Kusadasi for Ephesus, Santorini, Delos, Mykonos, Heraklion, Rhodes.

[Tatka]

I believe we've seen Marco Polo (formerly Alexander Pushkin) in Québec City last year in September while sailing on Veendam.

[Hlitner]

How nice to see the name of the original Marco Polo once again. The two cruises we took on her, to the Med and Scandinavia, remain our very favorites.

 

We loved the included pre and post cruise hotel stays, indepth shore excursions, fabulous crew, interesting mix of passengers and even a creaky older ship with no speciality dining, no balconies, and entertaining but not flashy shows.

 

If she was still sailing we would go again in a heartbeat!!

 

We also enjoyed the Marco Polo back when she was with Orient Lines. And she is still alive and well and now leased to "Cruise and Maritime Voyages" which a line catering primarily to Brits. We have stumbled upon her twice in recent years (most recently in Bergen) and the ship looked (from the outside) to be in great shape. We talked to one English couple who was on that cruise and they said all was well. They don't build ships like that anymore :). By the way, she is about 52 years old!

 

Hank

[SusieKay]

Thanks for the updates and info that she is still

around 😊

[kira5]

Having cruised on both Swan Hellenic Minerva and on Voyages to Antiquity's similarly sized Aegean Odyssey, I'm not sure how large that enrichment-travel market really is or how "unmet" the need is. Both Minerva and VTA's Aegean Odyssey seem to rarely sail completely booked, and each of those ships only carries about 350 passengers at capacity. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see more enrichment (lectures, special tours, etc.) aboard ships, but not sure how widespread that preference is. (And of course Swan Hellenic has now ceased operations; it remains to be seen if the line will be resuscitated....)

 

As I think you know, I've found a 'home' so to speak with VTA. I've just gotten off a cruise with them that sailed through the entirety of the "Middle Sea", with top-shelf lecturers that included John Julius Norwich (author of several acclaimed books on the history of the Mediterranean including books on Sicily, a "short" history of Byzantium [in 3 volumes!] and more... Lord Norwich was actually an advisor to VTA in helping them set up some of their itineraries and he was a rare treat as a lecturer. Also Justin Marozzi, author of "The Way of Herodotus": https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001NY650G/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1. Plus a third lecturer (Daniel Munoz) who covered topics on El-Andaluz, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Spanish artists Dali and Lorca.

 

I also would suggest that it requires a different model and a different management mind-set to manage a line with this focus. I'm not sure it would benefit HAL to, in effect, create a "line within a line". VTA hires, for example, a shore excursion team that are nearly all specialists in archaeology, classics, etc. They are usually young but very enthusiastic and knowledgeable (some have even provided pinch-hit lectures on various topics). In general, management is much more personable -- as is needed and expected on a smaller ship. That is to say, management actually deal with problems, and deal with them swiftly and well, without having to "check with HQ".

 

Thank you for making me aware of this line. It's definitely something we would be interested in.

[Whistlerski]

Maybe we needed to change our venue from the Crowe's Nest to Pinnacle Bar as there was no apps at the Crowe's nest when we were there 7-8 pm.

 

Eurodam april8-28 2017, hit appetizers at cows nest every day. Tied in with the 4-5 happy hour which was packed.

[Whistlerski]

Maybe we needed to change our venue from the Crowe's Nest to Pinnacle Bar as there was no apps at the Crowe's nest when we were there 7-8 pm.

 

Eurodam April 8-28 hot appetizers in crows nest every day, around 4 pm (happy hour)