Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

[gtouch]

2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I would think significant stock action would occur after the punitive event/sanction

Correct but why would people be buying now with that as a probable outcome is the question.

[elcuchio24]

48 minutes ago, gtouch said:

What I can't understand is with all this press the knowledge that the visit with the Judge can really only go bad or worse and their stock prices have risen during this time. 

 

Because people who actually follow the company and have insider knowledge know that nothing significant will come from all this.

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Other than fines, is there prescient for any of your other “suggestions”?  Which senior officer would this fall under?

Every one of my suggestions, other than the year long ban for specific ships has precedent.  CEO, COO, Fleet Managers and the top of the supposed compliance department.  As I've said, I've worked for two companies that have been under DOJ probation.

Edited April 16, 2019 by chengkp75

[jimbo5544]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Every one of my suggestions, other than the year long ban for specific ships has precedent.  CEO, COO, Fleet Managers and the top of the supposed compliance department.

Interesting, that surprises me..... (the prescient of corporate officers from the CEO down) part.  I respect your knowledge but would be more than shocked if Donald got a conviction on this.  I notified you did not say anything regarding individual cruise line senior officers, which was even more interesting.  Do you know whether the the rear admiral they hired heads the environmental area? 

[Cafedumonde]

7 hours ago, Micah's Grandad said:

From everything I have heard Carnival Corp deserves everything it is getting here and more. How can you sympathize with the company?

 

I do not sympathize, but I also know that often government regulators and the legal system in the US try to make corporations look as bad as possible, even demonize them.  Cruising is a hated industry in many quarters.  I do not think the federal judge's response in this case is measured or rational.  Maybe she will ultimately act in a measured way, but her recent words are tinged with anger.  I am not minimizing CCL'S responsibility in this, but I do think many responses on the forum are over the top.  Obviously CCL needs to exercise more oversight of certain employees, because it doesn't matter how much you train people, there will always be the occasional individual who will flout the rules even in life or death situations.  But it is interesting that the market continues to back CCL, as the stock is up again today.

[Cafedumonde]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Half a billion in fines, all of the compliance department, and the senior corporate officers convicted of felony charges, some forced out, the ships that violated the probation banned for a year, and a new compliance plan with full time third party sea stewards regardless of where the ship is sailing, on every ship.

This seems incredibly extreme to me.

[broberts]

2 hours ago, Keys2Heaven said:

Question then to everyone....what would you like to see happen?

 

Carnival dissolve?

Banned from US ports?

Fined into oblivion?

 

or simply get their act together and enforce what they promote? I know misery loves company, but from what I've read, looks like many are ready to write the company off.

 

A fine equal to 10 times the previous fine assessed. I believe that would be around US$400 million.

 

An additional 15 years probation. With a reduction of six months for every full year completed with no violations of any sort. And an additional year added for each year in which a violation occurs.

 

Full time monitors on any ship that has had a violation. The cost born by the corporation as a fine.

 

An appropriate number of full time auditors/monitors in various headquarters departments. Again, the cost born by the corporation as a fine.

 

[grandmarnnurse]

On 4/11/2019 at 11:33 AM, bowlinmoe said:

BS.  This is such a bluff.

 

The US economy benefits so much from the cruise industry.  They won't stop Carnival from docking here.

 

Sure, they might get financial penalties but that's it.

I agree. The financial loss would be too great. They won’t get banned. They’ll get a hefty fine, but that’s it.

[bury me at sea]

3 hours ago, Keys2Heaven said:

Question then to everyone....what would you like to see happen?

 

Carnival dissolve?

Banned from US ports?

Fined into oblivion?

 

or simply get their act together and enforce what they promote? I know misery loves company, but from what I've read, looks like many are ready to write the company off.

 

Fine the corporation a hefty amount, to ameliorate the damage done, and as a punitive measure.

 

Replace the entire board of directors.

 

Hold top management responsible, not the lowest level personnel possible.

 

 

[Micahs Grandad]

5 minutes ago, bury me at sea said:

 

Fine the corporation a hefty amount, to ameliorate the damage done, and as a punitive measure.

 

Replace the entire board of directors.

 

Hold top management responsible, not the lowest level personnel possible.

 

 

Works for me

[ShakyBeef]

27 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

A fine equal to 10 times the previous fine assessed. I believe that would be around US$400 million.

 

An additional 15 years probation. With a reduction of six months for every full year completed with no violations of any sort. And an additional year added for each year in which a violation occurs.

 

Full time monitors on any ship that has had a violation. The cost born by the corporation as a fine.

 

An appropriate number of full time auditors/monitors in various headquarters departments. Again, the cost born by the corporation as a fine.

 

 

This sounds pretty good.

 

I'll only add:

 

• in addition to the year of probation added for each year in which a violation occurs, another fine for each of those years of, oh, let's say $10 million.  
• I'd also like to see a large part of said fines used towards oceanic pollution abatement efforts.  Make Carnival Corp. actually pay to clean up some of the mess they made.
• It would be a nice cherry on top for me if the top execs deemed ultimately responsible had to do community service hours -  literally doing beach and/or ocean clean-up, themselves.  I'd love to see that.  But, realistically, not expecting anything of the sort.  Just a desire-for-karma-fueled fantasy.🤩🦄🌎

[coevan]

3 hours ago, gtouch said:

Correct but why would people be buying now with that as a probable outcome is the question.

 

 

because everyone is not on cruise critic and most are unaware of the situation. Carnival is a huge, profitable corporation

[coevan]

39 minutes ago, bury me at sea said:

Replace the entire board of directors.

 

 

Really, what a joke, you think they had any idea this was going on?

[broberts]

2 minutes ago, coevan said:

 

 

Really, what a joke, you think they had any idea this was going on?

 

They should have. After all the corporation was on probation, is it not their duty to follow up and monitor management to verify compliance?

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, broberts said:

 

They should have. After all the corporation was on probation, is it not their duty to follow up and monitor management to verify compliance?

I can answer that in one word...no.  Remove the cancer not kill the patient.  Oh I forgot one other thing, it would NEVER happen.  

[Organized Chaos]

19 minutes ago, ShakyBeef said:

 

• It would be a nice cherry on top for me if the top execs deemed ultimately responsible had to do community service hours -  literally doing beach and/or ocean clean-up, themselves.  I'd love to see that.  But, realistically, not expecting anything of the sort.  Just a desire-for-karma-fueled fantasy.🤩🦄🌎

 

In their ridiculously expensive suit and tie. 😁

 

Sad part is, even if some get fired (which they should) their golden parachute will break their fall.

[ShakyBeef]

Just now, Organized Chaos said:

 

In their ridiculously expensive suit and tie. 😁

 

Sad part is, even if some get fired (which they should) their golden parachute will break their fall.

 

I must admit that's how I was picturing it in my little fantasy.🤣

[jimbo5544]

45 minutes ago, ShakyBeef said:

 

This sounds pretty good.

 

I'll only add:

 

• in addition to the year of probation added for each year in which a violation occurs, another fine for each of those years of, oh, let's say $10 million.  
• I'd also like to see a large part of said fines used towards oceanic pollution abatement efforts.  Make Carnival Corp. actually pay to clean up some of the mess they made.
• It would be a nice cherry on top for me if the top execs deemed ultimately responsible had to do community service hours -  literally doing beach and/or ocean clean-up, themselves.  I'd love to see that.  But, realistically, not expecting anything of the sort.  Just a desire-for-karma-fueled fantasy.🤩🦄🌎

I def do not want you on my jury trial....

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Interesting, that surprises me..... (the prescient of corporate officers from the CEO down) part.  I respect your knowledge but would be more than shocked if Donald got a conviction on this.  I notified you did not say anything regarding individual cruise line senior officers, which was even more interesting.  Do you know whether the the rear admiral they hired heads the environmental area? 

The instructions from the courts for the original Princess violations were known to Mr. Donald, and it would fall to him to ensure that the corporate entity was complying with the court order.  The reason I did not say anything about the shipboard personnel is that that goes without saying that the licensed officers will be fined, likely lose their license.  The USCG admiral, as far as I know, is in charge of the compliance department, which is typically segregated from the "line" environmental department.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Cafedumonde said:

This seems incredibly extreme to me.

These terms were included in the probation terms of the companies I worked for, for future violations.  The senior corporate officers were convicted as felons after the original violations.  The idea is that the penalties for violation of probation is going to hurt a whole lot more than the original penalties.

[chengkp75]

19 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I def do not want you on my jury trial....

Remember, this is a second offense, while on probation for the same crime.

[jimbo5544]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

The instructions from the courts for the original Princess violations were known to Mr. Donald, and it would fall to him to ensure that the corporate entity was complying with the court order.  The reason I did not say anything about the shipboard personnel is that that goes without saying that the licensed officers will be fined, likely lose their license.  The USCG admiral, as far as I know, is in charge of the compliance department, which is typically segregated from the "line" environmental department.

Chain does work that way, but with that logic every goes on every infraction for every violation.  Business just does bot work that way.  I was a CIO for an insurance company, if they were sued and the company lost, and not under my watch (the error) there is not a court in the land that would send me to prison for an i fraction not committed by me.  Mr Donalds lawyer would be disbarred if he let him hang for something done 23 levels under him (we are not talking responsibility here but criminal liability. 

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Remember, this is a second offense, while on probation for the same crime.

I am not sating they are not responsible (overall) just not liable.   

[MicCanberra]

4 hours ago, Keys2Heaven said:

Question then to everyone....what would you like to see happen?

 

Carnival dissolve?

Banned from US ports?

Fined into oblivion?

 

or simply get their act together and enforce what they promote? I know misery loves company, but from what I've read, looks like many are ready to write the company off.

Fined heavily and stricter oversight with a long probation.

[chengkp75]

Just now, jimbo5544 said:

I am not sating they are not responsible (overall) just not liable.   

I believe Shaky was referring to the corporate executives, not the board.  I personally don't believe the board of directors has enough day to day involvement in the corporation to be liable, but certainly the CEO on down.