Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

[Cruisegirl6]

Thank you!  And its their newest largest ship so most unlikely now that I think about it.  

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

1 hour ago, Cruisegirl6 said:

Its time Carnival learn its lesson and they get hit where they will take environmental issues seriously.

It is time the guests also learned their lesson as well. 

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

This particular Judge has been very "open" with lots of comments which (at least from my neck of the woods) is atypical.  It will be an interesting day...

Yes, it will be an interesting day. Obviously the newspaper in Miami will cover it, but I wonder how much national media attention it will draw. I'm guessing the more drastic the punishment, the more likely the national media will be all over it.

 

Since Federal judges have lifetime appointments, I wonder is she will be more immune from political pressure.

[jimbo5544]

[jimbo5544]

The above post was posted today by their senior spokesperson on a social media site.

[jimbo5544]

15 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, it will be an interesting day. Obviously the newspaper in Miami will cover it, but I wonder how much national media attention it will draw. I'm guessing the more drastic the punishment, the more likely the national media will be all over it.

 

Since Federal judges have lifetime appointments, I wonder is she will be more immune from political pressure.

When is the last time you have seen one removed?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

As I noted on another thread about this "notice", these are band-aid fixes that will aid in remediating one of the many types of violations involved.  Training of the dishwash crew, and instilling the proper environmental culture, could leave these inconsequential items available.  To say that this is their main contribution to environmental compliance is an insult.  They don't need a band-aid, they need deep, deep surgery to remove the corporate cancer that has created the toxic "blame culture" mentioned by the auditors in their report.

 

This is like they are saying, "if you'll put up without these items, and the other things we will be discontinuing" we will be in full compliance, when in fact their violations run from Oil Record Book falsifications to venting ozone depleting refrigerants to the atmosphere and just a host of violations that cover every single Annex of MARPOL (each annex of MARPOL (Marine Pollution Convention) covers a different type of pollution:  oil, air emissions, refrigerants, garbage, sewage, etc).

[FSHLOT]

8 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I'm glad they are doing their part. It may be a little overkill though.

[broberts]

1 hour ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

As I have said before, if that is the case, then any guest, no matter what it is, a wrapper, a cigarette butt on deck, should be fined and disembarked. I have done it, and I am sure we all have. I now/we all now need to be very careful. The cruise-lines should be held responsible to what is within their pervue, but so should the guests, at all times.

 

In fact passengers can and have been kicked off for throwing things overboard. But I suspect the enforcement is haphazard.

 

Cruise lines can do more. I like the idea of "littering" fines. They are something everyone can understand and accept. In addition to the usual announcements, warning signs on each balcony and in a few public places should also help.

[jimbo5544]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

As I noted on another thread about this "notice", these are band-aid fixes that will aid in remediating one of the many types of violations involved.  Training of the dishwash crew, and instilling the proper environmental culture, could leave these inconsequential items available.  To say that this is their main contribution to environmental compliance is an insult.  They don't need a band-aid, they need deep, deep surgery to remove the corporate cancer that has created the toxic "blame culture" mentioned by the auditors in their report.

 

This is like they are saying, "if you'll put up without these items, and the other things we will be discontinuing" we will be in full compliance, when in fact their violations run from Oil Record Book falsifications to venting ozone depleting refrigerants to the atmosphere and just a host of violations that cover every single Annex of MARPOL (each annex of MARPOL (Marine Pollution Convention) covers a different type of pollution:  oil, air emissions, refrigerants, garbage, sewage, etc).

I did not see the other post or I would not have posted this.  This may only be a piece to their official reply, I think the get together  is today?

[jimbo5544]

2 hours ago, gilboman said:

continues? continue would require they have begun the right processes first which they have demonstrated repeatedly to not have implemented

Continues as in going forward.....after the remediation efforts are put in place.  

Edited June 3, 2019 by jimbo5544

[broberts]

6 minutes ago, FSHLOT said:

I'm glad they are doing their part. It may be a little overkill though.

 

Did you forget the  emoj?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

I did not see the other post or I would not have posted this.  This may only be a piece to their official reply, I think the get together  is today?

It's in a Princess forum thread.  This is a PR shill, pure and simple, because these are the "visible" problems that a passenger might notice.  This is like Oz saying "pay no attention to the pollution we are doing behind the curtain".  This just goes to show, to me, that they still don't get it.  They should come completely clean and admit to things that passengers would never see, and get ahead of what could be a defining moment for the corporation.

 

The hearing is today, but I'm not sure if the judge will be handing down a ruling today, or whether she wants to get further comments from Arinson and Donald.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

If you have a problem with Carnival and there other ships. Do not sail on them. Simple! Any idea why others have not been fined? They have not been caught yet. Heck, a merchant marine ship just knocked over board a multi million dollar luxury ship and lost it. Wonder if it was full of diesel fuel?

[AHS123]

Host Carolyn

• 5,000+ Club
• April 14, 2007
•  
• 7,316 posts
• Mint Hill, North Carolina

• Report post
•  
•  
•  
•  #1

Posted 3 hours ago (edited)

For discussion of POSSIBLE decision by the Court today Please do not post until decision is reported.

 

Thank you!!!

Edited 3 hours ago by Host Carolyn

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, twodaywonder said:

If you have a problem with Carnival and there other ships. Do not sail on them. Simple! Any idea why others have not been fined? They have not been caught yet. Heck, a merchant marine ship just knocked over board a multi million dollar luxury ship and lost it. Wonder if it was full of diesel fuel?

First off, no it wasn't, boats are not allowed to be transported with fuel in them.  Secondly, losing the boat overboard, even if it had fuel onboard, would be a violation, but there would be no prosecution for it, since it was due to weather (act of God).  If the ship had not reported the loss of a boat with fuel in it, and the coordinates of the loss, then there would have been a prosecutable violation.  Similarly, if my ship is sinking and I can try to save it by pumping engine room bilge water overboard, which is strictly prohibited, I get an "exemption" since this is a case of potential loss of the vessel and loss of life.  And you know what?  I can pump oil overboard every single day, legally.  As long as the water I pump overboard has less than 15ppm oil (not zero, but a measurable quantity), I am completely legal.  Tankers are allowed to decant tank washing liquid to the sea at a rate of 6 liters of oil per mile traveled.

 

Nearly all the mainstream cruise lines have been fined in the past.  NCL was placed on probation, just like Carnival was, back around 2000, but the difference is that NCL took it to heart, and changed their corporate culture to embrace environmental compliance, but Carnival has not.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

Weather was not a problem. The multi million dollar boat just went over board. Sunk. Woops. As for oil. The problem was TREATED sewage. No where near as bad as oil. Treated sewage will dissipate.  

Does Sewage Go Into The Ocean

The answer is yes, but not in the way you might think. In the U.S. sewage first goes to treatment facilities where it’s processed into liquid and solids. After the liquid is cleaned  it can be reintroduced into our rivers and oceans.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

The sewage was dumped in the Bahamas. the oil is a major problem for sure.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, twodaywonder said:

Weather was not a problem. The multi million dollar boat just went over board. Sunk. Woops. As for oil. The problem was TREATED sewage. No where near as bad as oil. Treated sewage will dissipate.  

Does Sewage Go Into The Ocean

The answer is yes, but not in the way you might think. In the U.S. sewage first goes to treatment facilities where it’s processed into liquid and solids. After the liquid is cleaned  it can be reintroduced into our rivers and oceans.

Really?  A boat just "fell off" the ship for no reason what so ever?  Okay, if you say so, it must be right.

 

Now, not real clear on your transitions from one topic to another, but let's see if I'm following.  You are talking about two different violations mentioned as violations of Princess' probation.  One was for dumping untreated gray water into Glacier Bay in Alaska.  Gray water is actually legally allowed to be discharged, untreated, across 90% of the world's oceans.  There are places, such as Glacier Bay, where law prohibits the discharge of untreated gray water, but Princess did this.  Now, most cruise ships will have Advanced Waste Water Treatment Plants that treat the black water and gray water to near pure drinking water quality, but even then, there are places where the discharge of this treated sewage is prohibited.  Casco Bay in Maine is one, for instance.  But to discharge untreated water into a protected zone like Glacier Bay is serious.

 

The other thing you are mixing, is that a Carnival ship dumped ballast water in the Bahamas.  This is sea water that has been carried around by the ship in tanks for stability.  Control of ballast water is a major concern in today's oceans, as it can lead to introduction of damaging organisms into the eco-system where they have no predators.  Google "zebra mussels" to see what has happened in the Great Lakes due to unrestricted ballast water discharge.

 

And the 800+ violations found by the auditor teams run the gamut of every type of marine pollution listed under MARPOL, oil, sewage, air pollution, garbage, plastic, ozone depleting refrigerants, the list goes on and on, ending with the failure to record incidents properly, falsifying records to hide incidents, and failure to report incidents to the governments whose waters those incidents happened in.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

Ballast water is not want was indicated. Treated sewage. 

The Bahamian government announced it will investigate Carnival Corp.’s discharge of nearly half a million gallons of treated sewage into its waters, following a report released by a U.S. judge earlier this month.

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article229667774.html#storylink=cpy

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, twodaywonder said:

Ballast water is not want was indicated. Treated sewage. 

The Bahamian government announced it will investigate Carnival Corp.’s discharge of nearly half a million gallons of treated sewage into its waters, following a report released by a U.S. judge earlier this month.

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article229667774.html#storylink=cpy

Ballast water is what is a major finding of the auditor team, though it does appear they dumped treated sewage into Bahamian waters as well.  However, even in areas where treated sewage is allowed to be pumped overboard, there are still restrictions, such as within 3 miles of coast (US NPDES regulations).  And, while you are correct that US municipal treatment plants do discharge into the rivers and oceans, you will also note that those treatment plants have huge holding tanks to allow the sewage to be processed over time.  Shipboard systems treat large volumes (1000-2000 tons per day) and discharge this waste at that same rate.  There is no holding, so there is no slow introduction of either undertreated or chlorinated treated sewage the way that a municipal plant does, and there is no monitoring as to whether the sewage is being adequately treated or not.  That is why there are restrictions on ships' ability to pump treated sewage overboard in certain areas, and the Bahamas in particular are trying to preserve their coral, which is the foundation of their islands, and there are far more areas of the US that don't have coral than do, and most of those places with coral will run sewage lines far out to sea.

[broberts]

17 minutes ago, twodaywonder said:

Ballast water is not want was indicated. Treated sewage. 

The Bahamian government announced it will investigate Carnival Corp.’s discharge of nearly half a million gallons of treated sewage into its waters, following a report released by a U.S. judge earlier this month.

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article229667774.html#storylink=cpy

 

Regardless of the substance, the discharge(s) violated international treaty/regulations/law and was certainly a violation of the probation terms.

 

These violations were not first offenses. They all occurred while the company was under probation for similar offenses.

 

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

Granted. Carnival and alike really screwed up. That is a fact. Personally IO do not condone ANY oil products being dumped into the ocean anywhere. The Bahamas and the Caribbean have the most beautiful water. it MUST stay that way and Carnival MUST pay the price. i am sure they will. However, the share holders are the ones taking the hit. Not the top brass.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

1 minute ago, broberts said:

 

Regardless of the substance, the discharge(s) violated international treaty/regulations/law and was certainly a violation of the probation terms.

 

These violations were not first offenses. They all occurred while the company was under probation for similar offenses.

 

Totally agree.

[Organized Chaos]

I didn't realize that the 2016 conviction, which got Carnival Corp. fined $40 mil. and 5 years probation, was actually the THIRD conviction for the same activity since 1998. That is proof that their corporate structure has been thumbing their noses at the law, as well as the punishments brought onto them by the courts over the years. And yet the deal we see today does nothing to hold their executives accountable. And no, making the CEO personally accept responsibility in an official statement isn't the same as being held accountable, in my opinion. I'm willing to bet that those same executives will be firing some high level crew members on board the ships that were caught violating the laws, if they haven't already, even though those crew members were more than likely following orders from above. In my opinion, that deal amounts to a slap on the wrist to a corporation that profited $3.2 billion last year and has continuously violated maritime laws & regulations for the last two decades.

 

Personally, I'd like to see the judge deny the deal to better ensure some of the execs are held responsible and to ensure the corporation brings about real changes instead of the "band-aid" promises they've made in their recent statement. Eliminating butter pats and cereal boxes...c'mon. Those are tiny things done in front of passengers' faces to make their customers feel like something is being done. I think chengkp75 worded it perfectly...it's a PR move, nothing more.

 

For the person who said, if you have a problem with Carnival, don't sail with them, you aren't the first to say this. But I don't think it's so black and white. People who enjoy the product that CCL has to offer can still be angered or saddened by their actions. Those of us who do enjoy cruising on Carnival, and would like to continue doing so, hope that they get their act together and make the big, necessary changes that need to be made in order to come out a much better company. This is no different than the decision so many of us have had to make in our lives with countless other companies. How much is too much and is this enough to take our business elsewhere? That's a decision that has to be made by each individual. Whatever you decide, it's your prerogative and neither decision is wrong.