Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

[cruzincat50]

If you belong to the VIFP program at Carnival, you won't get credit for going on a Princess cruise or any of the other cruise lines under CCL, but if one of those other lines get a huge fine, you certainly could end up paying more for your next Carnival Cruise.  Somehow this is wrong.

[tidecat]

12 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

If you belong to the VIFP program at Carnival, you won't get credit for going on a Princess cruise or any of the other cruise lines under CCL, but if one of those other lines get a huge fine, you certainly could end up paying more for your next Carnival Cruise.  Somehow this is wrong.

The fine would be levied against Carnival Corporation, not any one cruise line. There were offenses across the entire fleet.

 

You may ultimately jot pay more for your cruise, because of the competitive market. MSC, Norwegian, and Royal Caribbean will make sure Carnival can’t make this up in the marketplace. The only exception may be is if the competition starts making investments in greater compliance, in which case cruise fares go up industry wide.

 

It would not surprise me to see a ship or two sold off in the event of a substantial fine. It may very well be the end of the line for some older Carnival Corporation ships, including Carnival Cruise Line. AIDA only has one ship built before 2000 (AIDAcara, 1996); Carnival Cruise Line has ten (including the Sunshine and Sunrise, originally the Destiny and Triumph); P&O UK will have none as of August (Oriana has already been sold); P&O Australia has three (Pacific Dawn, Aria, and Explorer); Cunard has none; Princess Cruises has four (Grand, Sea, Sun, Pacific); Holland America has five (one of which is an expedition ship); and Seabourn has none.

[ProgRockCruiser]

On 4/28/2019 at 2:17 AM, MicCanberra said:

800 items in 2 years is more than 2 a day, very shoddy work.

 

800 in two years is 800 too much, but it isn't 2 / day.  it is 1.096 events per day - there are 730 days in a two-year period.

 

However, I do not like the way certain things are portrayed in some of the articles linked.  For example, one of the reports states:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

One other interesting spin was that same article stating:

 

"its ships illegally discharged more than a half-million gallons of treated sewage, gray water, oil and food waste"

 

which is later clarified to:

 

"Discharged more than 500,000 gallons of treated sewage, almost all of which was dumped in Bahamian waters, and 12 gallons of oil, most of which was fuel from lifeboats."

 

OK, that is not a good thing, but the first statement makes it sound like a lot more than 12 gallons of oil was discharged.  To the point that another of the linked websites interpreted that as:

 

"These were illegal dumping of sewage, food waste, grey water, and more than a half-million gallons of oil"

 

The purposely misleading hyperbole is uncalled for.

 

I do hope Carnival gets their stuff together, but the more I read, the more this seems like headline-grabbing "spin" vs actual imminent danger-to-the-planet.

[MicCanberra]

7 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

 

800 in two years is 800 too much, but it isn't 2 / day.  it is 1.096 events per day - there are 730 days in a two-year period.

sorry typo, was supposed to be a 1. 😳

[Thorncroft]

8 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

 

800 in two years is 800 too much, but it isn't 2 / day.  it is 1.096 events per day - there are 730 days in a two-year period.

 

However, I do not like the way certain things are portrayed in some of the articles linked.  For example, one of the reports states:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

One other interesting spin was that same article stating:

 

"its ships illegally discharged more than a half-million gallons of treated sewage, gray water, oil and food waste"

 

which is later clarified to:

 

"Discharged more than 500,000 gallons of treated sewage, almost all of which was dumped in Bahamian waters, and 12 gallons of oil, most of which was fuel from lifeboats."

 

OK, that is not a good thing, but the first statement makes it sound like a lot more than 12 gallons of oil was discharged.  To the point that another of the linked websites interpreted that as:

 

"These were illegal dumping of sewage, food waste, grey water, and more than a half-million gallons of oil"

 

The purposely misleading hyperbole is uncalled for.

 

I do hope Carnival gets their stuff together, but the more I read, the more this seems like headline-grabbing "spin" vs actual imminent danger-to-the-planet.

 

Carnival Corp. doesn't like it any more than you do, but what y'all like and wish mean nothing, at this point. The court will sort it all out and set Carnival on the road to rehabilitation, again. Everybody will be the better for it in the end. Just be thankful that you're not on the hook for this. 

[Kevin308]

Not letting Carnival dock would just hurt people that had nothing to do with it as would large fines.  You want to make sure this doesn't happen again then put the CEO and other excecs in Jail.  That a message to every company in the country

[Thorncroft]

1 hour ago, Kevin308 said:

Not letting Carnival dock would just hurt people that had nothing to do with it as would large fines.  You want to make sure this doesn't happen again then put the CEO and other excecs in Jail.  That a message to every company in the country

 

All three might happen.  We'll find out next month. 

[Organized Chaos]

12 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

However, I do not like the way certain things are portrayed in some of the articles linked.  For example, one of the reports states:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

But are these even things that the court appointed auditors are considering violations, or are they just notations of the kinds of "trash" that's being thrown overboard? Ultimately, Carnival is responsible for anything and everything that gets thrown off their ships. The buck stops with them if the passengers who are throwing these things over aren't caught and held responsible. The question is, is the court counting these as actual probation violations? If not, it's a moot point.

 

12 hours ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

 

One other interesting spin was that same article stating:

 

"its ships illegally discharged more than a half-million gallons of treated sewage, gray water, oil and food waste"

 

If I were the one reading this article, I would not have interpreted it as meaning a half million gallons of oil. If the last quote you cited interpreted it as such, that author should brush up on their reading comprehension.

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

I totally agree, perhaps they should immediately fine and disembark any guest who is breaking any law with regards to the Environmental policy. How does that sound?

[Palmetto Pilot]

1 hour ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

I totally agree, perhaps they should immediately fine and disembark any guest who is breaking any law with regards to the Environmental policy. How does that sound?

But the guests aren't the problem......

[MicCanberra]

19 minutes ago, Palmetto Pilot said:

But the guests aren't the problem......

They are if they are throwing things off the ship like pillows and such.

[broberts]

2 hours ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

I totally agree, perhaps they should immediately fine and disembark any guest who is breaking any law with regards to the Environmental policy. How does that sound?

 

Don't know about the fine, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it is standard practice to disembark such miscreants at the next port.

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

On 5/4/2019 at 6:40 PM, Palmetto Pilot said:

But the guests aren't the problem......

According to the hard hitting investigation of the Miami Herald, they certainly added to the problem, unless the ships crew is tossing over the following : "Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law.

[Aquahound]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:17 AM, ProgRockCruiser said:

 

"Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law."

 

OK, so how is "Carnival" to blame for that?  Is Carnival expected to stop that by either nailing everything down or simply not allowing passengers to have seat cushions?

 

 

Remember, there are criminal violations and civil penalties at play here.  In the world of civil penalties, Carnival most certainly can be held responsible for items being thrown off their ships.  It's like when a beer bottle gets thrown from a party bus and injures a person.  That person can go after the party bus company for compensatory damages, even though its the person who threw it who would be charged criminally.   

[SwordBlazer Cruising]

43 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Remember, there are criminal violations and civil penalties at play here.  In the world of civil penalties, Carnival most certainly can be held responsible for items being thrown off their ships.  It's like when a beer bottle gets thrown from a party bus and injures a person.  That person can go after the party bus company for compensatory damages, even though its the person who threw it who would be charged criminally.   

That's  100% true however at this point, maybe the cruise lines should without fail, disembark any guest who is in violation I am not aware any do, or am I wrong? The cruise lines should not be labeled as the enabler of guests who do this. 

[broberts]

2 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

That's  100% true however at this point, maybe the cruise lines should without fail, disembark any guest who is in violation I am not aware any do, or am I wrong? The cruise lines should not be labeled as the enabler of guests who do this. 

 

I don't recall details, but there is usually at least one announcement threatening consequences for throwing anything overboard.

[Aquahound]

26 minutes ago, SwordBlazer Cruising said:

That's  100% true however at this point, maybe the cruise lines should without fail, disembark any guest who is in violation I am not aware any do, or am I wrong? The cruise lines should not be labeled as the enabler of guests who do this. 

 

From what I've seen, yes, these people do get disembarked if caught. 

[MicCanberra]

2 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

From what I've seen, yes, these people do get disembarked if caught. 

Yes they do, have seen it happen at the next port we came to.

[tidecat]

Micky Arison and Arnold Donald should be at the revocation hearing:

 

 

[MicCanberra]

I suppose it is a closed hearing?

[cheggy]

On 4/11/2019 at 8:13 AM, coaster said:

There will be notice given. The cruises won't depart if the ban goes into effect on or after the disembark date. Nobody will be trapped at sea.

I want to be trapped at sea.

[MicCanberra]

53 minutes ago, cheggy said:

I want to be trapped at sea.

Time it right then.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, cheggy said:

I want to be trapped at sea.

We were once trapped at sea as a hurricane prevented the ship from returning to Fort Lauderdale. One of the assistant cruise directors even renamed the ship from Enchantment of the Seas to ENTRAPMENT of the Seas.

[silversneakers]

Carnival Corp. and federal prosecutors have reached an agreement to avoid revoking Carnival's probation in an environmental crimes case. The details of the proposed settlement were not made public. 

[sunonfire]

1 minute ago, silversneakers said:

Here is a link to the story with some more details.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article230768354.html