Zuiderdam prevented from leaving port by protesters

[cruisemom42]

 

This thread gives me mixed emotions. I find it interesting that many Americans (and I am one, so no flames please) feel free to comment on the security processes, legal processes and "rights" of other countries, while at the same time, I am quite sure that some of those same posters would quickly deflect or villify any comments from non-Americans about situations in the US where innocent travelers from other countries have been shot and killed due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

32 minutes ago, Seavoyage said:

These so called "climate warriors" have grandiose delusions of shutting down the cruise industry.  #nutjobs

 

 Behold a quote from one of its 'warriors'🙄

"We [will] no longer allow Pacific states to sink into the sea because holidaymakers lie in the pool and meanwhile want to travel from city to city," one group member, named only as Johanna, explained. "We will not tolerate the operation and certainly a further expansion of cruises."

https://www.newsweek.com/zuiderdam-cruise-ship-trapped-port-climate-change-activists-kiel-germany-1443051

 

It's just amazing these psychotic individuals were able to get so close the the hull of the Zuiderdam and even hang off her ropes.  Obviously all unstable - angry - dangerous individuals testing the waters - if they were able to paste a 10 foot banner on the side of the ship - what could their next move be? A 💣? Wake up - HAL.  SECURITY NOW!

 

 

Unstable? Angry? Dangerous?  Or just youthful, naive, and strong (if perhaps misguided) believers in a cause?

 

And after all, no one was hurt (at least not among those who were the focus of the protest, who knows about the protesters themselves...).  Perhaps in other countries people have not lost the ability to appreciate the right of "disagreeing" without having to resort to violence over the disagreement. Isn't a freedom of expression at least as important (if not more so) than a 'right to bear arms'?  Without it, we are living in a totalitarian state -- which in my mind is closer to what the words on the Berlin wall really mean....

 

[cccole]

Copper10-8...the Coastie in the first photo either drew the short straw or has amazing training.  To maneuver the boat and shoot straight seems like a tough assignment.  The U.S. Coast Guard is so important to the safety of our country.  I always appreciate your knowledge and photos.  Cherie

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, cccole said:

Copper10-8...the Coastie in the first photo either drew the short straw or has amazing training.  To maneuver the boat and shoot straight seems like a tough assignment.  The U.S. Coast Guard is so important to the safety of our country.  I always appreciate your knowledge and photos.  Cherie

 

Nah, he's the one who lost the man overboard dummy on the last exercise.

[Seavoyage]

12 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Like you US Citizen - I am free to comment because that's my First Amendment right.  It's apparent you have not read what these individuals are wanting to accomplish.  So allow me, if you will, to enlighten you. They want to abolish the cruise industry.  Not just in their homeland - EVERYWHERE and at any cost.  Perhaps you forget the protests of the young and naive members of the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) and Weather Underground in the 1960's and early 1970's, you know Bill Ayers - Angela Davis - Bernardine Dohrn, et al,  when they peacefully protested and then bombed the Pentagon.   Then they peacefully protested and bombed the New York City Police Department. These seemingly peaceful naive activists were responsible for 25 bombings throughout the US.  There are many other examples and history demonstrates there are no zealots that remain peaceful anymore - (e.g.  current news ANTIFA)  Like those that came before them, these people are dangerous criminals endangering thousands of completely peaceful people whose only crime, according to these ill-informed climate activists, is wanting to holiday and swim in a pool on a cruise ship.  It's time for the cruise industry to step up, protect the ships and its passengers.  Note to HAL - Rev up the engines, sound the horn, pull the gang plank, drop the ropes and stay on schedule.  It's only a matter of time before one of these dangerous climate nitwits slaps a plastic explosive to a hull of a ship.   Recall the bombing of the ferry in Playa del Carmen....Oh and speaking of walls - Mass Murderer Jim Jones had these words placed on the wall of his "Peoples Temple."  "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."   So there ya go.....Happy Sails🛳️

 

12 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

This thread gives me mixed emotions. I find it interesting that many Americans (and I am one, so no flames please) feel free to comment on the security processes, legal processes and "rights" of other countries, while at the same time, I am quite sure that some of those same posters would quickly deflect or villify any comments from non-Americans about situations in the US where innocent travelers from other countries have been shot and killed due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

 

Unstable? Angry? Dangerous?  Or just youthful, naive, and strong (if perhaps misguided) believers in a cause?

 

And after all, no one was hurt (at least not among those who were the focus of the protest, who knows about the protesters themselves...).  Perhaps in other countries people have not lost the ability to appreciate the right of "disagreeing" without having to resort to violence over the disagreement. Isn't a freedom of expression at least as important (if not more so) than a 'right to bear arms'?  Without it, we are living in a totalitarian state -- which in my mind is closer to what the words on the Berlin wall really mean....

 

 

[*Miss G*]

4 minutes ago, Seavoyage said:

 

 

 

Try to edit your post while you still have time.  You have improperly quoted CruiseMom and attributed your words to her.

[Hawaiidan]

On 6/9/2019 at 12:45 PM, Sir PMP said:

This will happen in Venice soon...

 

For those  who do not know, the Green Party in European Union won a big increase in seats in the  May election.  They now have more clout and are feeling bold.      I agree  you may soon see Venice closed.   Ships to anchor out and tender in only cargo and freight allowed.   The recent Venice incident  kicked everyone in Europe into high gear........   As for the Greenies....  some say they are  ill advised,   some say they are ill mannered and others say they are just ill.

[scubacruiserx2]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

And after all, no one was hurt (at least not among those who were the focus of the protest, who knows about the protesters themselves...).  Perhaps in other countries people have not lost the ability to appreciate the right of "disagreeing" without having to resort to violence over the disagreement. Isn't a freedom of expression at least as important (if not more so) than a 'right to bear arms'?  Without it, we are living in a totalitarian state -- which in my mind is closer to what the words on the Berlin wall really mean....

 

 

 

 

Is waiting until people get hurt or killed really the criteria for action ? An ounce of prevention is better .  Why aren't these protesters protesting at an AIDA or Mein Schiff ship or at the Naval shipyard across from Zuiderdam building ships in Kiel ? 

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

To the best of my knowledge, none of the SDS's activities were violent.  So, I wouldn't lump them with the Weather Underground.  And keep your paranoia about the "dangerous criminals" to yourself.  And, so what if they want to abolish the cruise industry, they have just as much right to their opinion as you do.  And, again, get your facts straight, as "slapping a plastic explosive" on a ship would require hundreds of pounds, its not at all like Hollywood portrays it.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

Is waiting until people get hurt or killed really the criteria for action ? An ounce of prevention is better .  Why aren't these protesters protesting at an AIDA or Mein Schiff ship or at the Naval shipyard across from Zuiderdam building ships in Kiel ? 

 

 

Probably because they have no beef with the German Navy.  What has that to do with cruise ships?  So, you think they are only protesting, and want to eliminate foreign cruise ships, and German ones are okey-dokey?  Or what other conspiracy theory are you trying to make?

[G.M.T.]

7 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

 

For those  who do not know, the Green Party in European Union won a big increase in seats in the  May election.  They now have more clout and are feeling bold.      I agree  you may soon see Venice closed.   Ships to anchor out and tender in only cargo and freight allowed.   The recent Venice incident  kicked everyone in Europe into high gear........   As for the Greenies....  some say they are  ill advised,   some say they are ill mannered and others say they are just ill.

The German Green party has been in existence for over 30 years and were also in a coalition government. How can 27% of the population that voted for the Greens in the recnt EU elections be ill.

It is not just the Venice incident but also the river cruise ship that recently sunk a pleasure craft with over 20 dead in Budapest.

 

The Times They Are A-Changin'

 

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

[Copper10-8]

13 minutes ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

 

Is waiting until people get hurt or killed really the criteria for action ? An ounce of prevention is better .  Why aren't these protesters protesting at an AIDA or Mein Schiff ship or at the Naval shipyard across from Zuiderdam building ships in Kiel ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They are anti-cruise ship, not anti German Navy, the former Howaldtsweke-Deutche Werft nor the corvettes plus Type-212A diesel-electric subs they're building there

[scubacruiserx2]

They have also built Dolphin class submarines with possible nuclear capabilities . And how about Meyer Werft and Fincanieri ? Go protest at the builders not on people's vacations . 

[fatcat04]

15 minutes ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

They have also built Dolphin class submarines with possible nuclear capabilities . And how about Meyer Werft and Fincanieri ? Go protest at the builders not on people's vacations . 

Had it been my hard earned vacation inconvenienced and possibly very expensive flights disrupted, I too would be angry.... regardless of the intentions of the protesters. I defend their right to protest and march within the confines of the very lenient laws in Western nations which bend over backwards to give the smallest of voices a platform but there is such a thing as going too far. Winning converts to your cause is a delicate balance. Push too far and the very folks you wish to influence and educate will think you are a kook or even a criminal. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by fatcat04

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

They have also built Dolphin class submarines with possible nuclear capabilities . And how about Meyer Werft and Fincanieri ? Go protest at the builders not on people's vacations . 

Again, they have no beef with "possible" nuclear capable ships, just with cruise ships.  And, protest the builders' yards?  If the cruise lines didn't order them, the yards wouldn't build them.  Boo hoo, my vacation was ruined.

[scubacruiserx2]

10 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, they have no beef with "possible" nuclear capable ships, just with cruise ships.  And, protest the builders' yards?  If the cruise lines didn't order them, the yards wouldn't build them.  Boo hoo, my vacation was ruined.

 

Sorry that your vacation was ruined . We're off to enjoy the rest of ours in the land of the trolls - while we still can .

Edited June 11, 2019 by scubacruiserx2

[G.M.T.]

48 minutes ago, scubacruiserx2 said:

They have also built Dolphin class submarines with possible nuclear capabilities . And how about Meyer Werft and Fincanieri ? Go protest at the builders not on people's vacations . 

We protest where we want, we live here.

[cccole]

51 minutes ago, fatcat04 said:

Had it been my hard earned vacation inconvenienced and possibly very expensive flights disrupted, I too would be angry.... regardless of the intentions of the protesters. I defend their right to protest and march within the confines of the very lenient laws in Western nations which bend over backwards to give the smallest of voices a platform but there is such a thing as going too far. Winning converts to your cause is a delicate balance. Push too far and the very folks you wish to influence and educate will think you are a kook or even a criminal. 

Would you complain as vehemently when your cruise is delayed 2+ hours because a ship excursion is late returning?  It appears that the ship arrived 2 hours late.  Most people do not plan on flights that could be missed if the ship is a couple hours late arriving in port because there are SO many reasons for a delayed arrival.  JMO  Cherie 

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, fatcat04 said:

Push too far and the very folks you wish to influence and educate will think you are a kook or even a criminal.

 

That's not how it works. If people start crying hard enough about something, others will think that they must have a point. They will write articles, as they need a new subject every week, saying that while they don't agree with the method of protesting, the cause itself has its merits. As the 0.001%'s opinion suddenly starts making headlines, politicians will be asked what they are going to do about it. They can either dismiss it, "these are just criminals, they should be in jail and you should ignore them". Or they do what politicians do. Even when almost nobody really cares about people drinking martinis on a ship they will demand stricter policies on polution, higher wages on ships, and the extremists will even suggest to abolish cruising altogether. 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by AmazedByCruising

[fatcat04]

24 minutes ago, cccole said:

Would you complain as vehemently when your cruise is delayed 2+ hours because a ship excursion is late returning?  It appears that the ship arrived 2 hours late.  Most people do not plan on flights that could be missed if the ship is a couple hours late arriving in port because there are SO many reasons for a delayed arrival.  JMO  Cherie 

Apples and oranges. A delayed excursion is always a possibility in cruising, though it may be unfortunate. An illegal protest that keeps a ship in port many hours over its expected departure is hardly common place. And I haven't complained vehemently, merely stated my thoughts and worries as I assume you have. I do my best to empathize with those put in bad situations by others. I also try to understand why the protesters wished to take illegal actions. That does not however mean I condone criminality. In the West, I think we try hard to be egalitarian. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by fatcat04

[fatcat04]

20 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

That's not how it works. If people start crying hard enough about something, others will think that they must have a point. They will write articles, as they need a new subject every week, saying that while they don't agree with the method of protesting, the cause itself has its merits. As the 0.001%'s opinion suddenly starts making headlines, politicians will be asked what they are going to do about it. They can either dismiss it, "these are just criminals, they should be in jail and you should ignore them". Or they do what politicians do. Even when almost nobody really cares about people drinking martinis on a ship they will demand stricter policies on polution, higher wages on ships, and the extremists will even suggest to abolish cruising altogether. 

 

Maybe but I think things involving enterprise often gravitate to the mean and not the extreme. And as technology evolves, and goodness knows it has made leaps and bounds in my lifetime, we are actively seeking solutions where before we didn't even know problems existed. 

[G.M.T.]

12 minutes ago, fatcat04 said:

Apples and oranges. A delayed excursion is always a possibility in cruising, though it may be unfortunate. An illegal protest that keeps a ship in port many hours over its expected departure is hardly common place. And I haven't complained vehemently, merely stated my thoughts and worries as I assume you have. I do my best to empathize with those put in bad situations by others. I also try to understand why the protesters wished to take illegal actions. That does not however mean I condone criminality. In the West, I think we try hard to be egalitarian. 

It was not illegal, the protesters were excersing their rights to protest.

[fatcat04]

10 minutes ago, G.M.T. said:

It was not illegal, the protesters were excersing their rights to protest.

It is my understanding the protesters were arrested. I would hope the EU and Germany follow due process and law abiding citizens are not arrested without just cause. 

http://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/news-headlines/police-break-environmental-campaigners-blockade-of-hal-ship-in-kiel.html

Edited June 11, 2019 by fatcat04

[Aquahound]

30 minutes ago, G.M.T. said:

It was not illegal, the protesters were excersing their rights to protest.

 

It's legal in Germany to block a ship from getting underway, hang from its mooring lines and stand on its bulbous bow while in port?  Wow, your laws are pretty lax out there.   

Edited June 11, 2019 by Aquahound

[RMLincoln]

I find this incident disturbing for many reasons:

• I had friends from Canada planning to board in Copenhagen; I assume they boarded without too much inconvenience.  
• Those disembarking the next morning would surely be concerned about a late arrival, I know I would be!  Not everybody can arrange for a flight at the time of their choice.  
• Port security is not a given in all ports of the world - their country, their rules!  But security is not a given anywhere.  For us, the most dangerous part of a trip is probably driving to the airport - I accept that risk.  But I don't find having protesters of unknown capability attaching themselves to a cruise ship to be something that I would want to have to tolerate.   
• Better fuels are available and will get utilized when there are pressures and requirements to do so, as has happened in the past.  New requirements are coming, so that is good thing in many ways.... but the poorer fuels aren't going away, they will be moved around to others.  
• This incident makes we wonder: Are new ships that are being built now, being built with innovative propulsion systems to use better fuels?  
• Hydroelectric power is not totally friendly to the earth.  And it is available to very few people and very few ports. 
• I have spoken with many crew members about their choice of employment, and I have always gotten surprisingly happy replies, mostly in that they find cruise line employment a way to better provide for their families compared to other options available to them.  Several have pointed out to me that if they remained employed locally they would work longer hours, not see their families, and not have the many weeks of vacation time that they get annually during which they can be available to their families 100% of that time.  And most crew members do this for a relatively short career after which they can have a strong foundation for a second career of a broad choice of options because they have the financial base provided by their work in the cruise industry.  So I discount the idea that the protesters are rallying for the crew as made-up propaganda.  
• Maybe the tolerant as well as the outspoken people of Kiel will find that treading on others' freedom - the freedom of unimpeded passage - brings consequences; maybe HAL will bring their business elsewhere.  I hope a change in HAL's thinking does not require casualties to occur first.  

My thanks John and Chief Engineer KP-75 for providing light on roles, rules, and responsibilities at sea and in ports.  And I do hope my friends aboard Z'dam on their first HAL cruise will enjoy their visits in Norway, Iceland, Scotland and Denmark... all unimpeded.   

Maureen--

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, RMLincoln said:

• This incident makes we wonder: Are new ships that are being built now, being built with innovative propulsion systems to use better fuels?  

 

There are not really any "innovative" propulsion systems, but ships are being built to utilize cleaner fuels.  The newest ships that will be LNG fueled use the same diesels as the ships burning high sulfur residual fuel.  Only the fuel handling equipment changes, but there will still be challenges with LNG until the infrastructure for bunkering ships with this fuel meets the demand the cruise lines are creating.  RCI is experimenting with "fuel cells" on a limited basis, but this again is a long way from being practical for the amount of power a cruise ship needs.