Diamond Princess passenger "tested positive for Wuhan coronavirus"

[hal2008]

4 minutes ago, Pushka said:

There are now 7 Australian evacuees who have tested positive after a negative test before their release from Diamond just last Wednesday. 

 

So much for theory that (and there were at least 100 posts claiming that) all infections were from time BEFORE quarrantine.

 

Can we extrapolate from 7 Aussie who were tested negative and have tiurned positive now and gestimate number of positive COVID-19 moving around in Japan?

[oskidunker]

If possible, it might have been better to sail to the US where there are more hospital beds and quarantine areas. Staying in Japan where they are not prepared to deal with this might have been a bad idea. On the other hand since there were many Japanese, it would have been a language problem as well as immigration. 

 

There needs to be a place these ships can go when this happens. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by oskidunker

[hal2008]

Just now, oskidunker said:

If possible, it might have been better to sail to the US where there are more hospital beds and quarantine areas. Staying in Japan where they are not prepared to deal with this might have been a bad idea. 

 

There needs to be a place these ships can go when this happens. 

 

Are you sure US have more isolation beds than Japan?

Nebraska facility can handle dozen or so.

 

Japan seems to have done excellent job of quarrantine the ship for the 14 days.

(what was undertaken was the  quarrantine of the ship, not keep pax on ship safe form eachother)

Very poor job of releasing everyone into general poulation.

[caribill]

4 hours ago, sppunk said:

Friends back in Ontario. They have another 14 day quarantine but are in a Canadian facility that’s like a hotel with free range to go anywhere in or out around it with a mask (only ship passengers are there). Thankful they’re back “home.”

 

If the ship passengers here are allowed to mingle with each other, this is less of a quarantine than was on the ship when they were restricted to their cabins.

[hal2008]

5 hours ago, bluesea321 said:

 

According to the Japan Times today there are ~300 passengers and ~1000 crew members still on board.

 

This is upon requirement of Japanese authority?

Passengers own chosing?

Requirements of Princess?

 

(I know plenty of crew are deparate to get off that hell)

[hal2008]

5 hours ago, bluesea321 said:

 

I am very glad for David that Princess got them a phone but how about doing the same for all others in similar situations! Or is Princess doing this just for PR!

 

Given that millions they are spending on logistics. This is least Princess could do for other passengers

 

[bluesea321]

2 minutes ago, hal2008 said:

This is upon requirement of Japanese authority?

Passengers own chosing?

Requirements of Princess?

 

(I know plenty of crew are deparate to get off that hell)

 

I have no idea but I doubt it is the second one.  Disembarkation and release into Japan has not gone well, to say the least.

[sppunk]

10 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

If the ship passengers here are allowed to mingle with each other, this is less of a quarantine than was on the ship when they were restricted to their cabins.

They have to stay so many meters away just like on DP. 

[Psoque]

5 hours ago, Host Carolyn said:

 

 

Very interesting read.  With no "road map" to follow for a situation like this, they Japanese didn't have a clue really how to handle it but I do think Princess handled this well under the circumstances

Your interpretation of the article is even more "intersting."  There are a lot of finger-pointing in the article, but the first finger, in the first few sentences of the article, is pointed at the cruise ship/cruise line.

 

(After I posted, I thought I should clarify, since I can't find the posts explaining this.)

 

The article says that the "Japanese government" failed to "lock down" the ship quickly enough.  That's a very misleading statement.  If anybody was "late to the party," its either Princess or CDC, since Princess consults with CDC, not the Japanese government about how they manage their passengers/crew.  Japanese government got involved when a necessity to quarantine and refuse disembarkation of Diamond Princess passenger/crew became a reality.   Technically, the Japanese government is not responsible for how foreign flagged ships managed the business inside the vessels.  They are technically responsible for protecting its waters/land, and also as a responsible member of the international community, protecting the citizens of the globe from the infection.  As far as the "patient 1" was identified, the whole ship became quarantined, and Japan assisted the ship in making sure that the quarantine was done in the most humane way possible without grossly breaking the quarantine.  I just don't think people really understand this concept.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Psoque

[npcl]

8 minutes ago, oskidunker said:

If possible, it might have been better to sail to the US where there are more hospital beds and quarantine areas. Staying in Japan where they are not prepared to deal with this might have been a bad idea. On the other hand since there were many Japanese, it would have been a language problem as well as immigration. 

 

There needs to be a place these ships can go when this happens. 

US has a total of 931,000 hospital beds, Japan has 1,550,000 hospital beds.

 

The practice of medicine in the US is to get people out of the hospital ASAP so the number of beds is relatively low per population size.

 

Japan has 400 hospitals designated to treat level 2 infectious disease patients.  If I recall correctly the US has considerably fewer.

 

The US, just like Japan, and for that matter the EU, are not prepared to deal with this kind of outbreak. While the US is starting to ramp up quarantine capacity, expanding the original 5 locations with a total of 1000 capacity to now 15 locations, it could not handle a full cruise ship on land at this time.

 

The reason for this lack of preparation is because the US has not enforced a large scale quarantine since the Spanish flu in 1918.  The last limited quarantine of arriving passengers was in the 60's for small pox, and recently a couple of Ebola patients.

[npcl]

12 minutes ago, hal2008 said:

 

This is upon requirement of Japanese authority?

Passengers own chosing?

Requirements of Princess?

 

(I know plenty of crew are deparate to get off that hell)

Until the Japanese release them and the ship it is under their control, just as those in quarantine in the US are under US control.

[Aus Traveller]

4 hours ago, bluesea321 said:

 

I'll go watch the video again, it is still available on secondary sites.

 

Edit: At the 5:10 minute mark Dr. Iwata refers to "the medical officer". He did not state what type of medical officer so perhaps the NYT talked to him and found out it was a ship's nurse.

I understand the term "medical officer" on Princess ships to be a doctor.

 

It is worrying if the medical officer (doctor or nurse) was consulting with crew members while not wearing a mask - with the comment that that he has it anyway.

[hal2008]

On 2/21/2020 at 12:38 PM, chengkp75 said:

Yes, there are unions for crew, though in the traditional sense of unions they are more employment agencies than unions, but the workers agree to be represented by this agency.  And, no, each nation's crew are represented by a national union, so each is entitled to negotiate a separate agreement with the cruise line.

 

And, as for the minimum wage, the guaranteed minimum wage is based on a 40 hour work week, the "normal" pay is based on a 70-80 hour work week, those additional hours being considered as "overtime".  When you get paid vacation, does it include overtime?

Princess is doing more than they are required to do.  Normally, when a crew member signs off the ship at the end of contract, that is the end of their pay until they sign back on a ship.  Princess, contractually, owes them nothing, since that is the amount of "paid vacation" they are entitled to.  So, these folks are getting two months pay over and above what any other Princess crew gets.

 

Thanks for clarifying that these crew members dont have unions in the sense that typical CC poster understands the word union of employees. You are correct that they are mostly setup as employee agency whose loyalties are obvious.

 

Also thanks for conforming (indirectly) that due to the setup of these national "agencies", for the exactly same work on the exactly same ship during exactly same sailing, crew of different countries are paid differently.

 

When "overtime" is part of your expected salary, not having that does not feel like two months of paid vacation.

Analogy: Wall Street head-trader make about 250k in base and 750k in "bonus" (that is how wall street structures total comp - very similar to how a room steward is comped - method, not amount obviously) When he is let go (happens very frequently on wall street), his two months of severance is based on 250k, not on million.  So it is more like getting two weeks of normal take home pay, not two month.  Similarly, when Princess announces two months of paid vacation, it is based on contractual minimum base salary PLUS contractual minimum gratuity.  Princess is not going to calculate how much room steward actually made (including cash tips) during a two week sailing and pay two months based on that. A worker on Diamond Princess is going to have lot less (significanty lot less) in his pocket during those "paid vacation" two months than what he got in his pocket during Novemner and December 2019.

 

Purpose of the post was to point out that "two weeks paid vacation" does not sound as generous given the circumstances. But that is just an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own. Differing opinion is ok too.

Edited February 22, 2020 by hal2008

[npcl]

4 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

 

That is indeed what Dr. Iwata said and even though he removed the video, apparently under pressure, he then stated to the Japan Times that he stood by what he had stated. We know the consequences, 634 infected and counting as some now on land test positive.

Just to be precise -  so far we have 1 passenger, that completed quarantine in Japan on the Diamond that has tested positive after leaving.  

 

There are several that left prior to completion of the quarantine and transferred by their home country for quarantine on land that have since tested positive.

[Aus Traveller]

55 minutes ago, hal2008 said:

 

So much for theory that (and there were at least 100 posts claiming that) all infections were from time BEFORE quarrantine.

We don't know when these people contracted the virus. One Chinese researcher claims the incubation period can be as long as 21 days for some people.

 

Many people with the virus apparently can be asymptomatic for a period of time, an unknown period of time. This is a new virus and the medical experts are still learning. It is a fact that several people (seven in Australia, one in Israel and several in USA) tested negative just before leaving the ship, but they have now tested positive. It seems that the virus can lie undetected for some time, once again, time unknown. With this virus, there are a lot of unknowns.

 

It cannot be stated with certainty, that those now testing positive contracted the virus after the quarantine was put in place. Equally it cannot be stated with certainty that they contracted it before the quarantine was put in place.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Aus Traveller

[Aus Traveller]

6 minutes ago, hal2008 said:

 

When "overtime" is part of your expected salary, not having that does not feel like two months of paid vacation.

Analogy: Wall Street head-trader make about 250k in base and 750k in "bonus" (that is how wall street structures total comp - very similar to how a room steward is comped - method, not amount obviously) When he is let go (happens very frequently on wall street), his two months of severance is based on 250k, not on million.  So it is more like getting two weeks of normal take home pay, not two month.  Similarly, when Princess announces two months of paid vacation, it is based on contractual minimum base salary PLUS contractual minimum gratuity.  Princess is not going to calculate how much room steward actually made (including cash tips) during a two week sailing and pay two months based on that. A worker on Diamond Princess is going to have lot less (significanty lot less) in his pocket during those "paid vacation" two months than what he got in his pocket during Novemner and December 2019.

 

Purpose of the post was to point out that "two weeks paid vacation" does not sound as generous given the circumstances. But that is just an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own. Differing opinion is ok too.

I thought Princess announced that the crew would receive two month's pay including the usual gratuities that they receive. I don't think there was any indication that they would be short-changed.

[hal2008]

3 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

 

 

It cannot be stated with certainty, that those now testing positive contracted the virus after the quarantine was put in place. Equally it can be stated with certainty that they contracted it before the quarantine was put in place.

 

Agree with the first sentance that there is no certainity about time when they contracted virus.

But not sure about the certainity mentioned in the second sentance.

[Pushka]

48 minutes ago, hal2008 said:

 

So much for theory that (and there were at least 100 posts claiming that) all infections were from time BEFORE quarrantine.

 

Can we extrapolate from 7 Aussie who were tested negative and have tiurned positive now and gestimate number of positive COVID-19 moving around in Japan?

 

I read on another travel forum that In the last couple of hours government officials have announced that

(1) we let 23 people off the boat without testing them properly. But we've been able to get in touch with most of them
(2) a lady we let off on the 19th who tested negative on the 15th has today tested positive
(3) 41 Health Ministry workers just went back to work without being tested after boarding the Diamond Princess, but we've realized now that it might be a good idea to test them

 

Not sure if it’s the same lady as in point 2 but a Japanese citizen who was on the ship and left, travelled by train to her home and has become unwell and is tested positive. 
 

On another note, the woman who had tested positive in Malaysia after the Westerdam cruise and which caused all sorts of issues, has now tested negative a week later. 

[Aus Traveller]

Just now, bluesea321 said:

 

As to your first sentence you need to revise "some" and say "one". The research you referred to says one person at 21 days, all others at 14 days or less.

 

And regarding your last sentence I think you meant "Equally it can NOT be stated..." 

Sorry if I haven't been totally precise with  my wording. I only have a short time this morning as we are heading off on a cruise today - on Princess.🙂

[fragilek]

3 minutes ago, npcl said:

Just to be precise -  so far we have 1 passenger, that completed quarantine in Japan on the Diamond that has tested positive after leaving.  

 

There are several that left prior to completion of the quarantine and transferred by their home country for quarantine on land that have since tested positive.

 I didn't keep complete check of the dates but I know the Australians got their results on the ship on the Feb 19th the day they were meant to leave. They said day 15 on their blog - but may be you know the day the quarantine was started to check that out. If the people talking about what was happening are correct then the 7 Australians did complete their quarantine time before leaving the ship and becoming positive.   I have been following this lovely family and hoping for the best outcome possible for them.

 

[hal2008]

1 minute ago, Aus Traveller said:

I thought Princess announced that the crew would receive two month's pay including the usual gratuities that they receive. I don't think there was any indication that they would be short-changed.

 

Usual = average of their monthly receipts (before this particular sailing)

Contractual = base + gratuity guarantee mentioned in their contract

 

The two amounts are quite different in real practice.

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 hour ago, Aus Traveller said:

 

 

It cannot be stated with certainty, that those now testing positive contracted the virus after the quarantine was put in place. Equally it cannot be stated with certainty that they contracted it before the quarantine was put in place.

It's highly likely there are some that contracted it after the quarantine was put in place ie the cabin mates of those who tested positive while on the ship - it would be impossible to determine whether those people had contracted it pre-quarantine, or post-quarantine from their cabin mate. And there will undoubtably be crew members who contracted it post-quarantine.

 

At the moment there are 634 cases recorded against the ship. Passengers and crew totalled around 3,700 I believe. So still only 17.1% affected. Even taking into account cases that occured after passengers left the ship it is probably still under 20%. If that percentage doesn't grow significantly over the next couple of weeks, assuming cases reported are tracked back to Diamond, then the quarantine probably was as effective as it could have been in the circumstances.

Edited February 22, 2020 by OzKiwiJJ

[OzKiwiJJ]

I just spotted this:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/22495-princess-issues-rfp-to-clean-and-sanitize-diamond-princess.html?fbclid=IwAR3NaIjiHFxsuErzbPWEGxUGg7kjBjkHEpApXA9aTEAOdQw4K4M46eRLMc0

 

 

[Caymus88]

20 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I just spotted this:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/22495-princess-issues-rfp-to-clean-and-sanitize-diamond-princess.html?fbclid=IwAR3NaIjiHFxsuErzbPWEGxUGg7kjBjkHEpApXA9aTEAOdQw4K4M46eRLMc0

 

 

Looks like a completely new ship except for the hull

 

[azbirdmom]

22 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I just spotted this:

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/22495-princess-issues-rfp-to-clean-and-sanitize-diamond-princess.html?fbclid=IwAR3NaIjiHFxsuErzbPWEGxUGg7kjBjkHEpApXA9aTEAOdQw4K4M46eRLMc0

 

 

 

I saw that too.  It seems they want to leave no doubt that the ship will be safe for future cruisers.