NO BAILOUT FOR CRUISE LINES!

[sfaaa]

Seems like a moot point now. There is no bailout in the package.

[Georgia_Peaches]

25 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 should we bail out a corporation like Samsung who makes TV's in foreign countries, because they "support" the longshoremen, truck drivers and Best Buy salespeople in the US?

That's a very interesting question and I know you asked it as a rhetorical one to illustrate a point, but my response would be, YES if Samsung or others in similar situations were such an employment force here in the US that hundreds of thousands of people would be out of a job without the support...then yes, I think it should be considered.

[grandgeezer]

On 3/27/2020 at 3:25 PM, orville99 said:

I'm my own accountant, and have detailed costs in a spreadsheet that I've kept since we started cruising again in 2008. The number I quoted includes 18 7-night JS in the mix, and one 7-night CL Suite (which added $8,000 to the total). I'm sure I could go out and find the most expensive itinerary (14-night TA) on the newest ship and use that to demonstrate that the prices of all cruises are sky high, but in the real world of 7-night cruises, that makes no point.

 

On 3/27/2020 at 3:25 PM, orville99 said:

I'm my own accountant, and have detailed costs in a spreadsheet that I've kept since we started cruising again in 2008. The number I quoted includes 18 7-night JS in the mix, and one 7-night CL Suite (which added $8,000 to the total). I'm sure I could go out and find the most expensive itinerary (14-night TA) on the newest ship and use that to demonstrate that the prices of all cruises are sky high, but in the real world of 7-night cruises, that makes no point.

 Comparisons are only accurate if you are comparing things that are exactly the same. Even you can’t say that the experiences are the same just with a different price. Without stretching this out, there are things that were available years ago that aren’t available now, the food and service has dropped. Also don’t factor in the new things unless it was free, such as speciality dining and the drink packages. Just because it didn’t make a difference to you doesn’t mean it should be disregarded.

All I read about the higher pricing, on this board, and the responses all say “supply and demand”, and “Dynamic pricing” as reasons, how does someone avoid these?

I don’t have a spreadsheet I have the invoices for all 46 cruises we’ve taken. We are creatures of habit meaning we tend to take the same cruises, at the same time of the year on the same cruise lines. I also don’t factor in a savings for the value of the “free perks”, it’s cruise plus taxes and fees and that’s it.

Leave you with an accountant joke, which in this case seems appropriate.

Thee accounts were applying for a job. First one is asked “what is 3+5”?, he says “I think it’s “7”. The second one says “I think it’s 9”. The third one says “It’s whatever number you want it to be”. Guess who got the job?

[gatour]

3 hours ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

That's a very interesting question and I know you asked it as a rhetorical one to illustrate a point, but my response would be, YES if Samsung or others in similar situations were such an employment force here in the US that hundreds of thousands of people would be out of a job without the support...then yes, I think it should be considered.

Samsung doesn't have a big direct employment stance in the US.

 

How do you feel about Honda, Toyota, Mercedes and VW/Audi which have manufacturing plants in the US  should they get bailouts from the US.  Keep in mind several years ago VW/Audi were considering building an additional plant in the US but decided to build the plant in Mexico.

[wolfie11]

6 hours ago, txart said:

The cruise lines may be incorporated in other countries but they employ over 400,000 people in this country not counting the business they create for the airlines, hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc. I'd say they are very important to the US economy.

The 400,000 figure comes CLIA and who knows how they came up with that number, but the people employed full time, year round by the cruise lines is vastly less than this.  The people who help the ship dock and undock and who load and unload luggage and supplies work for the port, not the cruise line.  The people directing you in the terminal are part-time and, in many places, seasonal.  When embarking and disembarking, many passengers live close enough to arrive the same day and head straight for the ship, others fly in the day before, spend the night, and head for the ship the next day.  Granted, some people do stay a few days before or after their cruise and spend some money, but the majority do not.

 

The cruise lines do their best once you are onboard to make sure you never spend a dollar off the ship on the local economy that you could spend with the cruise line.  Go-karts and roller coasters on the ships, onboard stores whose sales and bargains are pushed at you daily, discounts on spa services on port days, and port shopping guides directing you to cruise line-owned stores or shore excursions that pay commissions to the cruise lines all help their bottom line.  
 

Unfortunately, most of the 400,000 Americans who “work” for the cruise lines probably won’t be eligible for any benefits from the bail out because they are part time, temporary employees.  I just hope that some of the funds will make their way to the small, often family-owned companies in Alaska and New England who provide shore excursions or run services or small businesses that will be hurt by being closed down into the foreseeable future.  

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, gatour said:

Samsung doesn't have a big direct employment stance in the US

Neither do the cruise lines, which is my point.  The cruise lines may "support" a lot of jobs in the US, but they don't directly employ that many.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, gatour said:

How do you feel about Honda, Toyota, Mercedes and VW/Audi which have manufacturing plants in the US  should they get bailouts from the US.  Keep in mind several years ago VW/Audi were considering building an additional plant in the US but decided to build the plant in Mexico.

If the financial aid was earmarked to be used only for the US subsidiaries of these companies, then that would be one thing, not to just give the parent corporation financial aid.  And, so to close the circle on the example, financial aid to the corporate headquarters staff of the cruise lines would be fine, not to the cruise line in general.

[Jim9310]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If the financial aid was earmarked to be used only for the US subsidiaries of these companies, then that would be one thing, not to just give the parent corporation financial aid.  And, so to close the circle on the example, financial aid to the corporate headquarters staff of the cruise lines would be fine, not to the cruise line in general.

American workers are eligible for regular weekly unemployment payments, plus temporary $600 federal payments.

[papaflamingo]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If the financial aid was earmarked to be used only for the US subsidiaries of these companies, then that would be one thing, not to just give the parent corporation financial aid.  And, so to close the circle on the example, financial aid to the corporate headquarters staff of the cruise lines would be fine, not to the cruise line in general.

The problem is that if the cruise lines fail, the "customer" for all those who directly benefit as support businesses will disappear.  So no matter how much the country bails them out, if the customer base isn't there, then the business fails.  

Here is a link to the numbers.  $53 Billion to the U.S. economy, and over 420,000 U.S. jobs.  Big hit don't you think? 

https://cruising.org/news-and-research/press-room/2019/november/cruise-industry-contributes-nearly-53-billion-to-us-economy-in-2018

 

Well we're at it, the big issue seems to be not paying U.S. income taxes.  So, in 2009 we bailed out the auto industry.  Do you know how much GM has paid in corporate income taxes since?  ZERO... here's another interesting article on the subject: 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/tech-companies-dont-pay-federal-income-taxes-amazon-gm-2019-11

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, papaflamingo said:

The problem is that if the cruise lines fail, the "customer" for all those who directly benefit as support businesses will disappear.  So no matter how much the country bails them out, if the customer base isn't there, then the business fails.  

Here is a link to the numbers.  $53 Billion to the U.S. economy, and over 420,000 U.S. jobs.  Big hit don't you think? 

https://cruising.org/news-and-research/press-room/2019/november/cruise-industry-contributes-nearly-53-billion-to-us-economy-in-2018

 

Well we're at it, the big issue seems to be not paying U.S. income taxes.  So, in 2009 we bailed out the auto industry.  Do you know how much GM has paid in corporate income taxes since?  ZERO... here's another interesting article on the subject: 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/tech-companies-dont-pay-federal-income-taxes-amazon-gm-2019-11

 

First thing.  I doubt the cruise lines will completely fail, and just go out of business, without any aid from the US government.  They will file Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get protection from their creditors (those businesses that they support will not be receiving any money during the restructuring for past bills), but will continue with business as usual once the ports are opened.  Cruises will start up again, and the lines will start to bring in revenue, and start to pay those support businesses.  And, if the level of business support is reduced, what is to say that those supported industries don't find other outlets for their goods and services?

 

And, while GM may not have paid any corporate tax, they have directly employed 170k US citizens who do pay taxes.  How many direct employees of the cruise lines pay US taxes?

 

And, again, I will make my comparison between the cruise industry and the Jones Act merchant fleet delivering goods internally in the US.  The cruise line supports 400k jobs in the US, probably about 10k are direct employment.  The Jones Act fleet supports over 500k jobs.  The cruise industry claims to add $53 billion to the US economy, while the Jones Act industry claims to add $113 billion to the US economy, including millions in direct taxation (all the companies are US owned).  Have we given any support to the Jones Act fleet in the last 40 years?

[Wine-O]

2 hours ago, Jim9310 said:

American workers are eligible for regular weekly unemployment payments, plus temporary $600 federal payments.

 

Yes, thanks to the idiots in Congress, we can pay people more than their actual wage not to work.  What a great country we live in.  😉 🍷

[MADflyer]

1 hour ago, Wine-O said:

 

Yes, thanks to the idiots in Congress, we can pay people more than their actual wage not to work.  What a great country we live in.  😉 🍷

I know it is impossible to change the attitude of someone that holds your opinion, but the idea of the stimulus is to avoid an economic disaster. There is some sense to what they are doing and how it will protect local and state economies. 

 

Just take a very average job like Dental Hygienist.  In South Carolina the low end of a salary for this very average position is $52,000 on the high end and $89,000 at the very top percentile. 

 

So the weekly income at the low end is $1083. The maximum weekly unemployment  benefit for South Carolina is $326 and when you add in the $600 that comes to $926 or $157 below the low end salary for this very average position. The idea of the stimulus is to keep these average workers at the point of their salary. 

 

Think of the very large percentage of South Carolinian  that make higher salaries than this average worker. 

 

The living wage for South Carolina is estimated at $47,000. 

 

The minimum wage worker in South Carolina earns $15,080 per year or $31,920 below the living wage. The fact that they will get the same 'pandemic relief' is actually fair. They have no savings and they barely get by as it is. They do not in any way share the privilege that many of us on this board do. 

 

They will also spend every cent of this stimulus money and therefor the whole purpose of the stimulus is met and they will pay sales tax on every purchase that supports South Carolina and they will pay the rent that supports the property investors they support.... and so on.. 

[not-enough-cruising]

1 hour ago, Wine-O said:

 

Yes, thanks to the idiots in Congress, we can pay people more than their actual wage not to work.  What a great country we live in.  😉 🍷

you are the idiot; we aren't paying anyone more than their salary to not work, we are paying them a LITTLE more than the 25%-30% of actual lost wages for a short time.

[Baron Barracuda]

Quick online check shows at end of 2018 total worldwide employment for CCL was 120k, RCL 77k, NCL 33k and MSC 23K.   Total around 250k.  Lots of small lines out there as well, but these 250k are WORLDWIDE.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Baron Barracuda

[Newleno]

12 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

you are the idiot; we aren't paying anyone more than their salary to not work, we are paying them a LITTLE more than the 25%-30% of actual lost wages for a short time.

Whoa Whoa Whoa easy now, easy up

[not-enough-cruising]

2 minutes ago, Newleno said:

Whoa Whoa Whoa easy now, easy up

was just using the label he used in his prior post, good for the goose and all..............

[gatour]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Neither do the cruise lines, which is my point.  The cruise lines may "support" a lot of jobs in the US, but they don't directly employ that many.

I agree with you.  I was just pointing out a different industry to one of the people posting on this thread.

[Newleno]

16 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

was just using the label he used in his prior post, good for the goose and all..............

we are all great

Edited March 29, 2020 by Newleno

[gatour]

32 minutes ago, MADflyer said:

I know it is impossible to change the attitude of someone that holds your opinion, but the idea of the stimulus is to avoid an economic disaster. There is some sense to what they are doing and how it will protect local and state economies. 

 

Just take a very average job like Dental Hygienist.  In South Carolina the low end of a salary for this very average position is $52,000 on the high end and $89,000 at the very top percentile. 

 

So the weekly income at the low end is $1083. The maximum weekly unemployment  benefit for South Carolina is $326 and when you add in the $600 that comes to $926 or $157 below the low end salary for this very average position. The idea of the stimulus is to keep these average workers at the point of their salary. 

 

Think of the very large percentage of South Carolinian  that make higher salaries than this average worker. 

 

The living wage for South Carolina is estimated at $47,000. 

 

The minimum wage worker in South Carolina earns $15,080 per year or $31,920 below the living wage. The fact that they will get the same 'pandemic relief' is actually fair. They have no savings and they barely get by as it is. They do not in any way share the privilege that many of us on this board do. 

 

They will also spend every cent of this stimulus money and therefor the whole purpose of the stimulus is met and they will pay sales tax on every purchase that supports South Carolina and they will pay the rent that supports the property investors they support.... and so on.. 

And it is even worse in Florida.  Thanks to our former governor now senator Florida has one of the lowest unemployment if not the lowest benefits in country $275.  He actually argued against the unemployment benefits part of the "bail out" package.  Mind you this guy was the CEO of a private hospital corporation that defrauded the federal gov't while he was the leader.

[papaflamingo]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

First thing.  I doubt the cruise lines will completely fail, and just go out of business, without any aid from the US government.  They will file Chapter 11 bankruptcy, get protection from their creditors (those businesses that they support will not be receiving any money during the restructuring for past bills), but will continue with business as usual once the ports are opened.  Cruises will start up again, and the lines will start to bring in revenue, and start to pay those support businesses.  And, if the level of business support is reduced, what is to say that those supported industries don't find other outlets for their goods and services?

 

And, while GM may not have paid any corporate tax, they have directly employed 170k US citizens who do pay taxes.  How many direct employees of the cruise lines pay US taxes?

 

And, again, I will make my comparison between the cruise industry and the Jones Act merchant fleet delivering goods internally in the US.  The cruise line supports 400k jobs in the US, probably about 10k are direct employment.  The Jones Act fleet supports over 500k jobs.  The cruise industry claims to add $53 billion to the US economy, while the Jones Act industry claims to add $113 billion to the US economy, including millions in direct taxation (all the companies are US owned).  Have we given any support to the Jones Act fleet in the last 40 years?

Well, we seem to be heading into a circle. Yes, GM employs about 180,000, but that's WORLDWIDE.  About 86,400  are employed in the U.S. and around 94,000 employed overseas.  So around the circle we go.  But no sense beating a dead horse, which is where I think we're headed. 

Anyway, only so you don't think I'm making numbers up, here's my GM reference:

https://www.gm.com/our-company/us.html

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by papaflamingo

[MADflyer]

36 minutes ago, gatour said:

And it is even worse in Florida.  Thanks to our former governor now senator Florida has one of the lowest unemployment if not the lowest benefits in country $275.  He actually argued against the unemployment benefits part of the "bail out" package.  Mind you this guy was the CEO of a private hospital corporation that defrauded the federal gov't while he was the leader.

It is amazing what a radical shift has taken place over the past 20 years.  I noted one interesting shift especially this week with a Tennessee Senate seat. 

 

Bill Frist held the seat and was the Majority leader from 2003 to 2007 and his family also founded Hospital Corp. of America (HCA) I remember finding him quite a radical at the time. He has been very balanced and helpful concerning the Coronavirus and strongly supported the stimulus publicly. 

 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/health/2020/03/25/former-senator-bill-frist-despite-economic-pain-nation-must-stay-closed-amid-coronavirus/5080720002/

 

He term limited himself and his successor, Bob Corker came out last week as a supporter of the "Older Americans can "sacrifice" for the economy" movement. 

 

I can only imagine what the current holder might think as she is an extreme radical. (by today's standards)