NO BAILOUT FOR CRUISE LINES!

[rhblake]

19 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

I don't think cruise fares are cheap, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Let me put this in perspective. Our first 2 week cruise was on RCCL’s Nordic Princess in April of 1981. We paid approximately $4,900 for a deluxe ocean view cabin on that cruise. With inflation that same cruise would now cost us $13,944. Today you can get an ocean-view cabin for about $4,000. That is $900 less than we paid 39 years ago. So yes they are a relatively inexpensive vacations.

[Snit13]

On 3/23/2020 at 7:44 PM, davekathy said:

Like anyone else that is laid off from their job no matter the reason or who they work for, they go and find another job!

Where would you suggest they go to find another job?  

[Snit13]

On 3/24/2020 at 9:12 AM, Joebucks said:

Go ask the state of Florida for example how important cruising is. Beyond all of the expert opinions of foreign labor and taxes, it is a huge economy for them. Cruises stimulate business towards flights, hotels, taxi/rideshare, restaurants, shopping, etc. It creates many additional jobs in many indirect areas plus direct ones like port employees. Do you think all of these US ports have cruise ships there for no reason or benefit to them? Really think about that.

And we don't have to pay State Income Tax.  Thanks all who come to Florida and share your wealth with us as you come and go from your cruises.

[davekathy]

9 minutes ago, Snit13 said:

Where would you suggest they go to find another job?  

Here is a list of some national retailers that have open positions at this time:

Domino's - Hiring 10K employees nationwide

Kroger - Hiring an additional 10,000 employees (Smith's is part of Kroger)

Walmart - Hiring 1,300 new associates in Nevada through end of May

Dollar General - Hiring 50,000 employees in response to coronavirus surge

Sprouts - Looking to fill more than 60 positions around Las Vegas

CVS Pharmacies - Filling 50,000 full-time, part-time and temporary roles nationwide

Albertson's Companies - Filling 30,000 jobs nationwide (Albertson's Companies includes Vons)

Amazon - Plans to hire an additional 100,000 associates

PepsiCo - Plans to hire 6,000 new, full-time, full-benefit frontline employees

Pizza Hut - Hiring for more than 30,000 positions nationwide

Papa John's - Hiring up to 20,000 new restaurant team members

[orville99]

46 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

I don't think cruise fares are cheap, not by any stretch of the imagination.  Yes, there are some deals on vanilla Caribbean cruises (of which many, including us, have no interest) but look at anything of interest and prices are sky high.

Taken in isolation, cruise prices may seem "sky high", but as someone who racked up more than 1,000,000 air miles and averaged ~150 days/year in hotels throughout my 40 year career (DW actually has done more of both), when taken in the context of the cost of a comparable non-cruise based vacation of the same length to any desirable vacation destination, cruise prices are actually one of the best cost/value vacations available.

Edited March 27, 2020 by orville99

[Roger88]

Not sure why you guys are panicing. Its a mandatory in a way. Such situations happen from time to time. Dont see a single reason to panic about it. Keep travelling, save / earn money, find most appropriate tours and just travel. Dont bother loading yourself with all that information which has nothing to do with you really. Just read what Davekathy just posted above. There are jobs lol 

[orville99]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2020 at 7:19 PM, mugtech said:

The government will help them get low interest loans, hopefully with collateral like a couple of ships which could become part of the US Navy in a worst case scenario.

The way the language in the bill reads, in order to qualify for loans, a company must be organized as a U.S company and registered as a U.S. company. The cruise lines do not meet either qualification, and the CLIA has already stated that as it stands now, none of the cruise lines are eligible for any government assistance.

[Snit13]

16 minutes ago, davekathy said:

Here is a list of some national retailers that have open positions at this time:

Domino's - Hiring 10K employees nationwide

Kroger - Hiring an additional 10,000 employees (Smith's is part of Kroger)

Walmart - Hiring 1,300 new associates in Nevada through end of May

Dollar General - Hiring 50,000 employees in response to coronavirus surge

Sprouts - Looking to fill more than 60 positions around Las Vegas

CVS Pharmacies - Filling 50,000 full-time, part-time and temporary roles nationwide

Albertson's Companies - Filling 30,000 jobs nationwide (Albertson's Companies includes Vons)

Amazon - Plans to hire an additional 100,000 associates

PepsiCo - Plans to hire 6,000 new, full-time, full-benefit frontline employees

Pizza Hut - Hiring for more than 30,000 positions nationwide

Papa John's - Hiring up to 20,000 new restaurant team members

Many smaller communities in US to not have these options.  Also these are entry level jobs not professional salaries or salaries comparable to employees who have been with companies for 20+ years.  You would not do much cruising on the wages these companies pay.  You seem to be comparing apples to oranges when you post these jobs.

My first job in the retail business earned me 50 cents per hour and my first job as a professional paid $4,100 per year.  How many people would be willing to work for that pay today?

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Snit13
add

[orville99]

13 hours ago, BND said:

Except capital gains taxes are paid on investments, not salaries/income.  And, it's not just the richest that can have capital gains, but okay.

My daughter, who works paycheck-to-paycheck, will ultimately participate in capital gain distributions from her 401-K, and I will ultimately have to pay capital gains taxes on our grandchildren's 529 plans once they are old enough to cash them in.

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, orville99 said:

My daughter, who works paycheck-to-paycheck, will ultimately participate in capital gain distributions from her 401-K, and I will ultimately have to pay capital gains taxes on our grandchildren's 529 plans once they are old enough to cash them in.

Uh, no.  That would actually be beneficial if you did, because capital gains tax is usually less than normal income tax, which is what is paid on 401(k) withdrawals (both principal and gains) and 529 withdrawals (gains only).

[ECCruise]

23 minutes ago, orville99 said:

Taken in isolation, cruise prices may seem "sky high", but as someone who racked up more than 1,000,000 air miles and averaged ~150 days/year in hotels throughout my 40 year career (DW actually has done more of both), when taken in the context of the cost of a comparable non-cruise based vacation of the same length to any desirable vacation destination, cruise prices are actually one of the best cost/value vacations available.

I am not considering prices in isolation.  I am not comparing prices to hotels, or AirBnbs, or space flight.  I am not comparing prices to last century, literally, either.

I am comparing prices on our 1200+ days on 80+ sailings, including 85 days in the last 4 months.  Prices are definitely higher than they were even 5 years ago.  Have you looked at 2021 pricing?  Nuts.

[spooky981]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with orienting your business in a way that reduces your taxable liabilities to the maximum legal amount. Not only is there nothing wrong with it, but a company would be stupid to do otherwise. The cruise lines are still way ahead after decades of foreign incorporation even if they don't get a bailout.

 

I feel the same for the employees as I do the bartender at my favorite spot around the corner. Fortunately while the legislation doesn't deliver a penny to the cruise lines, it does fund unemployment for their former employees. Maybe they'll find a new industry where they will be less replaceable.

[Biker19]

14 minutes ago, orville99 said:

I will ultimately have to pay capital gains taxes on our grandchildren's 529 plans once they are old enough to cash them in.

There are no taxes of any kind if you use 529 withdrawals for qualified education purposes. 

[davekathy]

35 minutes ago, Snit13 said:

Many smaller communities in US to not have these options.  Also these are entry level jobs not professional salaries or salaries comparable to employees who have been with companies for 20+ years.  You would not do much cruising on the wages these companies pay.  You seem to be comparing apples to oranges when you post these jobs.

My first job in the retail business earned me 50 cents per hour and my first job as a professional paid $4,100 per year.  How many people would be willing to work for that pay today?

 

No I'm not comparing apples to oranges. It's all about making due, whatever it takes to get thru life when you are thrown an unexpected curve ball. If you are unemployed or working to make ends meet,cruising should the last thing you are concerned about. Any job beats no job especially when the unemployment benefits run out. Now back to the original topic of this thread...

Edited March 27, 2020 by davekathy

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

It also has to do with Union wages.  If registered in US, then must pay union scale. 

There used to be three ships but complaints over service caused a reduction.  (Or so it was reported.)

If you saw those "union" wages, you'd laugh at your statement.  As someone who worked on the NCL US flag ships at the beginning, I saw how low the pay scale was, even for the "traditional" maritime unions who man the deck and engine departments.  Entry level wage for the cruise ship hotel staff was less than most cities' McDonald's wage, and you worked longer hours with no days off.  Even the unlicensed deck and engine crew had concessions where their overtime rate was less than the normal time rate (yes, this is legal if the collective bargaining agreement says it is okay).  The reason two of the US flag ships were reflagged back to Bahamian was not due to complaints of service, but due to price pressures from the foreign flag ships that were offering 14 day cruises from the West Coast for less than NCL could make money on selling 7 day cruises.  During the time that NCL had 3 ships in Hawaii, the other cruise lines increased capacity to Hawaii by 500%, driving fares down due to overcapacity.

[Newleno]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Uh, no.  That would actually be beneficial if you did, because capital gains tax is usually less than normal income tax, which is what is paid on 401(k) withdrawals (both principal and gains) and 529 withdrawals (gains only).

hmm I always thought it was better to let your money grow tax deferred in the 401k instead of taking any type of distribution  I would just rather let it go and grow until age 72 when I would have to start with mandatory distributions (if not ROTH).  Especially having to take out after the market tanked, double whammy  - taxes/less value

Edited March 27, 2020 by Newleno

[zonacruiser25]

On 3/23/2020 at 9:08 PM, Doug910 said:

Well said. Most don't realize that a "bailout" is NOT a handout, but a low interest loan. So, a couple of points... A)The US government shut down the cruise lines. 

I seem to recall the US closed its ports to all passenger ships.  I also recall that many other countries have closed their ports to all passenger ships.  So that seems to have the result of the cruise lines suspending their operations.  No country "shut down" the cruise lines.  Cruise lines have established relationships with banks around the world.  This is where the cruise lines should look to if they have need of low interest assistance.

[chengkp75]

23 minutes ago, Newleno said:

hmm I always thought it was better to let your money grow tax deferred in the 401k instead of taking any type of distribution  I would just rather let it go and grow until age 72 when I would have to start with mandatory distributions (if not ROTH).  Especially having to take out after the market tanked, double whammy  - taxes/less value

Yes, a 401k is tax deferred, meaning that for most folks, when you take the money out, you are in a lower tax bracket than when you put it in, so you save on taxes.  But, it is still taxed as normal income, not capital gains.  I'm not saying it is better to have your money in equities than a 401k, I'm saying that if you were taxed on 401k distributions as capital gains it would likely be more beneficial than being taxed on them as income.

[zuggie]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cruise-lines-early-source-of-coronavirus-infections-out-of-bailout-package/ar-BB11LAuE?ocid=spartandhp

 

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this story from this morning's Washington Post says the cruise lines are being left out of the big bail out package.  For all the reasons having been discussed in this thread.

[greykitty]

1 hour ago, orville99 said:

My daughter, who works paycheck-to-paycheck, will ultimately participate in capital gain distributions from her 401-K, and I will ultimately have to pay capital gains taxes on our grandchildren's 529 plans once they are old enough to cash them in.

I'm relatively fresh to the world of retirement having lived basically paycheck to paycheck for many years.  I pay NORMAL INCOME TAXES, yes yelling, on my 401k (then rolled over to IRA) distributions.  Not capital gains.  My contributions to my 401k were tax deferred until I began withdrawing them.  Capital gains actually would have been more to my advantage.

 

 

[zonacruiser25]

1 hour ago, spooky981 said:

I feel the same for the employees as I do the bartender at my favorite spot around the corner. Fortunately while the legislation doesn't deliver a penny to the cruise lines, it does fund unemployment for their former employees. Maybe they'll find a new industry where they will be less replaceable.

I believe that most of the employees we might see in ports are all contracted by the cruise lines.  I know my company has many subsidiaries incorporated in different areas.  While RCCL ships are foreign flagged, US operations(since US seems to be the topic of this discussion) may well be subsidiaries incorporated in the US.  All the employees working at the US offices would be covered under US labor laws and eligible for unemployment and subsidy checks.  RCCL will survive and thrive when this all runs its course.  RCCL and other lines may come out leaner and stronger at the other end.  I so look forward to returning to cruising and can't wait for that time.   

[ano]

5 hours ago, time4u2go said:

Right, but they're not based there, which is what the person I responded to was talking about.  Big difference.

Its no different than airlines.  Where they are registered determines where they pay taxes and which labor laws they must follow.  Lets look at Lufthansa airlines based in Germany.  They are, wait for it, registered in Germany.  So lets say they are struggling financially, who do you think would "bail them out,"  The U.S. or Germany?  Sure, Lufthansa does employ people in the U.S., mechanics, people at the gates, etc. but they are NOT a U.S. airline.  Cruise lines are no different.  

[time4u2go]

18 minutes ago, ano said:

Its no different than airlines.  Where they are registered determines where they pay taxes and which labor laws they must follow.  Lets look at Lufthansa airlines based in Germany.  They are, wait for it, registered in Germany.  So lets say they are struggling financially, who do you think would "bail them out,"  The U.S. or Germany?  Sure, Lufthansa does employ people in the U.S., mechanics, people at the gates, etc. but they are NOT a U.S. airline.  Cruise lines are no different.  

Lufthansa is based in Germany.  If they were to be bailed out, it would be by Germany.

 

Royal is based in the U. S.  If they were to be bailed out, it would be by the U. S.  Really not sure what your point is.

[orville99]

2 hours ago, ECCruise said:

I am not considering prices in isolation.  I am not comparing prices to hotels, or AirBnbs, or space flight.  I am not comparing prices to last century, literally, either.

I am comparing prices on our 1200+ days on 80+ sailings, including 85 days in the last 4 months.  Prices are definitely higher than they were even 5 years ago.  Have you looked at 2021 pricing?  Nuts.

Today’s cruise prices {adjusted for inflation) are significantly lower than when we started cruising in the 1980’s, and using that same inflation adjuster have remained within 5-10% of where they were over the past decade.

[orville99]

2 hours ago, Biker19 said:

There are no taxes of any kind if you use 529 withdrawals for qualified education purposes. 

Unfortunately one has already decided that he’s not going to college.