Why Not Suspend the Jones Act

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, Wonderingabout said:

Thank you I stand corrected as my experience with this  was  in early January of this year.

If it was this year, then the change in itinerary was caused either by weather or a mechanical problem with the ship, and they applied for a waiver on that basis.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If it was this year, then the change in itinerary was caused either by weather or a mechanical problem with the ship, and they applied for a waiver on that basis.

Is there ever a problem getting those waivers?

 

I was once a Board of Education member and we had a problem getting a waiver when there was a factory fire near two of our schools and the fire department said not to bus the students in. Only state bureaucrats would not understand that you cooperate with your local fire department.

[chengkp75]

38 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Is there ever a problem getting those waivers?

 

I was once a Board of Education member and we had a problem getting a waiver when there was a factory fire near two of our schools and the fire department said not to bus the students in. Only state bureaucrats would not understand that you cooperate with your local fire department.

Typically, no.  CBP will fine the cruise line if a passenger dies and is disembarked in a different US port than embarkation, and of course the line passes this to the surviving spouse.  They have to file for a waiver, and these are granted as a matter of course, but it is up to the spouse or family to file.

[Aquahound]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 5:42 AM, ChinaShrek said:

 

That thread also has a lot of people posting criticizing any repeal of the PVSA. It would be nice to have a thread safe to posy positive thoughts about its repeal without fear of being vociferously attacked.

 

You seem to be very confused on the difference between posting facts about the PVSA and a "vociferous attack."  It was explained to you....several times because you lashed out at others....why the PVSA exists and why it will not be repealed in a time like this. 

 

But hey, dream all you want.  My wife dreams all the time that I'll fly into the bedroom on a winged unicorn but the fact is she's just lucky if I don't stub my toe and let out every curse word in existence. 

[DaveSJ711]

On 4/21/2020 at 9:59 PM, dag144 said:

The Jones Act requires that ships leaving on a cruise from the continental USA stop at a foreign port before returning.  If the act is suspended cruises can begin and end in the USA without  stopping in Mexico or Canada or wherever.   This would give the CDC total control over domestic cruises, create jobs in US ports (restaurants, attractions, transportation etc.), and provide for some interesting itineraries.  It probably would enable the lines to rehire some of their own employees.  We have interesting ports on the East and West coasts plus the Gulf.  This could be a way however small of creating jobs and enjoyment for land based US citizens. 

 

Part of the Jones Act (46 U.S.C. 30104) gives seamen the right to sue their employers for injuries sustained while on the job.  Do you favor suspending this right, too? 

Edited April 23, 2020 by DaveSJ711

[ew101]

18 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Those kinds of "technical" port stops are no longer allowed.

So if the ship goes to say Freeport, docks, and the little (fenced off) port village is opened by say Bahamas citizens on the ship's crew/excursion staff (to make it feel authentic) and the passengers go ashore and have a drink and sit by the pool and buy baskets for the afternoon, and then go back aboard at 5PM, does that count as a port stop?  I'm thinking of a process that follows the letter of the law but does not put the island residents and limited hospital capacity at risk.   

 

The key here is to find at least one port/country that is "all in" on a cruise ships and will take a ship infected or not and allow medivacs, charter flights, hospital stays etc.  

Edited April 24, 2020 by ew101

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ew101 said:

So if the ship goes to say Freeport, docks, and the little (fenced off) port village is opened by say Bahamas citizens on the ship's crew/excursion staff (to make it feel authentic) and the passengers go ashore and have a drink and sit by the pool and buy baskets for the afternoon, and then go back aboard at 5PM, does that count as a port stop?  I'm thinking of a process that follows the letter of the law but does not put the island residents and limited hospital capacity at risk.   

 

The key here is to find at least one port/country that is "all in" on a cruise ships and will take a ship infected or not and allow medivacs, charter flights, hospital stays etc.  

Provided that the port of call is advertised in the itinerary (the old Ensenada port calls at midnight weren't), and provided that passengers are allowed to disembark, and the port call was more than an hour or two, then yes, CBP would likely rule that as a viable port call.

[ontheweb]

13 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Typically, no.  CBP will fine the cruise line if a passenger dies and is disembarked in a different US port than embarkation, and of course the line passes this to the surviving spouse.  They have to file for a waiver, and these are granted as a matter of course, but it is up to the spouse or family to file.

I do hope in the instance of the surviving spouse being responsible for that penalty charge that the cruise lines inform him or her that it can be waived and how to obtain the waiver. Otherwise it seems a rather cruel thing to be done to them by the US government in their time of sorrow.

[chengkp75]

34 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I do hope in the instance of the surviving spouse being responsible for that penalty charge that the cruise lines inform him or her that it can be waived and how to obtain the waiver. Otherwise it seems a rather cruel thing to be done to them by the US government in their time of sorrow.

It is not done by the US government.  A PVSA fine is levied against the cruise line for the violation.  It is only the cruise line's ticket contract that gives the line permission to pass the fine on to the passenger.  I know NCL would inform the spouse about applying for the waiver, and provide the necessary documentation, but I can't speak for all lines.

[iancal]

Would suspending the Jones act or any other applicable act  make cruising at this time safer from a health perspective?

Edited April 24, 2020 by iancal

[chengkp75]

38 minutes ago, iancal said:

Would suspending the Jones act or any other applicable act  make cruising at this time safer from a health perspective?

Considering that the Pride of America, a US flag cruise ship that does strictly domestic itineraries, never even leaving the state of Hawaii is not operating because it doesn't meet the CDC requirements for a large passenger vessel, then I don't see what difference suspending the PVSA would do.  The CDC requirement does not make any mention of a ship's flag, but does differentiate on the number of passengers, to allow ferries to continue to operate.

[rafinmd]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The CDC requirement does not make any mention of a ship's flag, but does differentiate on the number of passengers, to allow ferries to continue to operate.

That seems a bit odd.  I would think the reason ferries continue to operate is because they are essential.  I hope CDC does not allow 200-passenger dinner boats to operate.

 

Roy

[Aquahound]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I do hope in the instance of the surviving spouse being responsible for that penalty charge that the cruise lines inform him or her that it can be waived and how to obtain the waiver. Otherwise it seems a rather cruel thing to be done to them by the US government in their time of sorrow.

 

I saw this happen in Key West once.  An elderly man died on a Carnival ship.  The body and the surviving spouse were debarked in KW, which generated an automatic fine from CBP for both persons against the cruise line.  I only heard about it after fielding a complaint from the family that Carnival turned around and charged it to them.  CCL charged the surviving wife $600. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Aquahound

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

That seems a bit odd.  I would think the reason ferries continue to operate is because they are essential.  I hope CDC does not allow 200-passenger dinner boats to operate.

 

Roy

Actually, it does.  It applies only to ships that carry more than 250 passengers, and that have an overnight or 24+ hour itinerary.  Except for state and local emergency measures regarding group sizes and social distancing, the CDC no sail order does not apply to large casino boats like the Victory Casino Cruises in Port Canaveral, which handles over 1000 passengers per day.

[rafinmd]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, it does.  It applies only to ships that carry more than 250 passengers, and that have an overnight or 24+ hour itinerary.  Except for state and local emergency measures regarding group sizes and social distancing, the CDC no sail order does not apply to large casino boats like the Victory Casino Cruises in Port Canaveral, which handles over 1000 passengers per day.

Thank God for the state, county, and city authorities.  (and perhaps Maritime Unions)

 

Roy

Edited April 24, 2020 by rafinmd
afterthought

[iancal]

I think that there is an obvious world of difference between taking a few hour commuter ferry ride and a multi day  cruise. 

[rafinmd]

 

6 minutes ago, iancal said:

I think that there is an obvious world of difference between taking a few hour commuter ferry ride and a multi day  cruise. 

Not necessarily.  I've been on the Kennicott for 5 days (Bellingham to Whittier) and could have continued 2 more days to Homer.

 

Roy

[iancal]

Did I say reference days or did I reference a few hours commuter ferry ride?

 

Either way, I would have far more confidence in the CDC than I would in any Government agency or cruise line.  Most especially in light of some of the nonsense we have heard from politicians over the past few weeks.

Edited April 24, 2020 by iancal

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

It is not done by the US government.  A PVSA fine is levied against the cruise line for the violation.  It is only the cruise line's ticket contract that gives the line permission to pass the fine on to the passenger.  I know NCL would inform the spouse about applying for the waiver, and provide the necessary documentation, but I can't speak for all lines.

I guess the fine is only indirectly from the government to the passenger since it passes through the cruise line.

 

Good to know NCL informs the bereaved passenger about the waiver and provides the documentation. I hope this is true of other cruise lines also.

[CruiserBruce]

32 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

 

Not necessarily.  I've been on the Kennicott for 5 days (Bellingham to Whittier) and could have continued 2 more days to Homer.

 

Roy

I imagine those ferries are flagged in the US, so the PVSA doesn't apply.

[Aquahound]

55 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

 

Not necessarily.  I've been on the Kennicott for 5 days (Bellingham to Whittier) and could have continued 2 more days to Homer.

 

That route is shut down for now.  It is not scheduled to resume until June 27.

[rafinmd]

31 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

I imagine those ferries are flagged in the US, so the PVSA doesn't apply.

Actually, the PVSA does apply.  Without it Alaska, currently suffering low oil prices, could farm the system out to the lowest bidder, with reduced safety requirements and the loss of a lot of American jobs. 

 

Roy

[sail7seas]

On 4/22/2020 at 1:48 AM, Btimmer said:

The Jones Act covers freight vessels.  The PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act is the legislation that prohibits cruise ships from carrying passengers between US ports without a foreign port stop (condensed version).  For more information on the differences between these two acts, check out https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=3363

 

 

 

 

PVSA also applies to passenger aircraft and is what   stops  Air France, Al Italia, British Air et al from co mpeting with U.S.carriers for U.S. domestic routes.  Foreign aircraft cannot carry pax   from one  U.S. locale directly to another U.S. city.     No picking up pax in Boston, flying directly to NYC , for  example without a stop in an out of U.S. location.

 

 

 

 

sail.noordam @gmail.com

Edited April 24, 2020 by sail7seas

[npcl]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Considering that the Pride of America, a US flag cruise ship that does strictly domestic itineraries, never even leaving the state of Hawaii is not operating because it doesn't meet the CDC requirements for a large passenger vessel, then I don't see what difference suspending the PVSA would do.  The CDC requirement does not make any mention of a ship's flag, but does differentiate on the number of passengers, to allow ferries to continue to operate.

I suspect that since Hawaii is currently requiring 14 day quarantine for travel between islands, and since passengers can not come from outside Hawaii to catch a cruise it does not much matter if the CDC restricted it or not, because the state would not allow it.

 

To be honest I am not at all certain that the CDC restriction would apply to that ship because it is strictly inside the state. So do not know if it is:

 

1. the CDC declaration

2. the governors restrictions inside the state preventing travel between islands.

3. The cruiselines own suspension since no one can get to the ship to cruise even if 1 or 2 did not apply 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

 

 

PVSA also applies to passenger aircraft and is what   stops  Air France, Al Italia, British Air et al from co mpeting with U.S.carriers for U.S. domestic routes.  Foreign aircraft cannot carry pax   from one  U.S. locale directly to another U.S. ity.     No picking up pax in Boston, flying directly to NYC , for  example without a stop in an out of U.S. location.

 

 

 

 

sail.noordam @gmail.com

No, that is the Civil Aviation Act that precludes foreign airlines from domestic routes