Maybe the CDC is right after all

[jimbo5544]

4 hours ago, LMaxwell said:

I don't think the first part is accurate and the cruise industry is different than other industries; a one size fits all approach won't work. 

Show me where I am wrong.  I totally agree one size does not fit all.  All I have seen, and I mean ALL is a no sail order, a no sail order extension, a mandate for them to sub their “plan” with no input from the CDC and a color coded mandate for crew repatriation.  Show me something other than these from the “experts” assisting the industry.  Does not have to be the same as any other industry. 

[jimbo5544]

Here is another example of experts Vacillating all over the place 

 

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-news-face-masks-increase-risk-infection-doctor-jenny-harries-a9396811.html

[jimbo5544]

26 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

I think people on these boards and on other social media forums believe they are informed and therefore, become hostile when someone else's information conflicts with their own.

Or maybe there is much fear mongering.  Watch the network news (Jaded as it is) for 4 nights and you tell me.  That said we are wandering off the path.

Edited June 22, 2020 by jimbo5544

[Georgia_Peaches]

Just now, jimbo5544 said:

Or maybe there is much fear mongering.  Watch the network news for 4 nights and you tell me.

No thank you.  I can't take anymore fear mongering so I have sworn off network news indefinitely.  

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

No thank you.  I can't take anymore fear mongering so I have sworn off network news indefinitely.  

Good for you!

[boatseller]

Also keep in mind the definition of an "ICU" bed is somewhat flexible since early on CMS allowed facilities to create C19 "ICUs" using facilities not certified/approved (whatever the bureaucrats call it) as ICU.

 

As for the original topic, no, the CDC is still bungling through this like they did from the beginning.  Face coverings and wash your hands is hardly innovative, cutting-edge guidance.

 

The best case for getting through this is to manage the spread so healthcare capacity is essentially 100% continuously until heard immunity slows the spread naturally and the ccv is pushed to the background with Influenza and the other cold-causing corona viruses.

 

I have $300 OBC!  Whoo-Hoo!

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, OceanCruise said:

Your article contains the same link to the official statistics as mine . Did you actually look at those numbers?  

 

Did you see these?

 

The AHCA's data showed two of Palm Beach County's 17 hospitals have already filled all ICU beds, while several other medical centers reported limited availability. One hospital in Miami-Dade County has also reached its ICU bed capacity as of Thursday, and the majority of hospitals have filled more than half of beds in intensive care units. Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties have reported two of Florida's most severe local virus outbreaks.

 

Who cares if a hospital 300 miles away has space for you? ICU beds are not reserved for Covid patients and flu season will be here again before you know it.

[BlerkOne]

6 minutes ago, boatseller said:

The best case for getting through this is to manage the spread so healthcare capacity is essentially 100% continuously until heard immunity slows the spread naturally and the ccv is pushed to the background with Influenza and the other cold-causing corona viruses.

 

 

Herd immunity has yet to be shown possible with this virus - and well under 10% of the US population has been exposed. It will take years to get to a high enough percentage without hundreds of thousands or more deaths. People who think covid is just another flu are part of the problem.

 

Speaking of flu, flu season will be back in a few months, and with it, increased demand for ICU beds.

[Georgia_Peaches]

1 minute ago, BlerkOne said:

Herd immunity has yet to be shown possible with this virus - and well under 10% of the US population has been exposed. It will take years to get to a high enough percentage without hundreds of thousands or more deaths. People who think covid is just another flu are part of the problem.

Now see?  This is a classic example of how conflicting information, and there is mountains of it out there, leads to ill informed hostility towards others.  And I'm sure you mean well by this post.  But just yesterday, I read that "some scientists believe that as much as 40% of the population, and perhaps higher have been exposed to Covid-19, with nearly half never experiencing any symptoms."   Who's information is right?  Mine or yours or Tom's or Dick's or Harry's...

[skridge]

I don't really see how the CDC could have treated the cruise industry much differently.  The cruise industry is selling a "product" that is dangerous in the time of Covid 19.  Of course it is not a good look to tell a group of people that want to go on vacation with their family that they can't go on vacation.  I feel it is a worse look to say oh go ahead and then you have an outbreak.

[BlerkOne]

18 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

Now see?  This is a classic example of how conflicting information, and there is mountains of it out there, leads to ill informed hostility towards others.  And I'm sure you mean well by this post.  But just yesterday, I read that "some scientists believe that as much as 40% of the population, and perhaps higher have been exposed to Covid-19, with nearly half never experiencing any symptoms."   Who's information is right?  Mine or yours or Tom's or Dick's or Harry's...

 

I'm pretty sure those scientists are wrong. But years from now the data will still be under analysis and even then there may not be a consensus. But the fact is too many people are dying every day from covid-19 and the numbers are not declining like they need to. If the US hits 200,000 dead by Oct 1, there will still be some trying to deny and deflect.

[Georgia_Peaches]

9 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

 

But years from now the data will still be under analysis and even then there may not be a consensus. But the fact is too many people are dying every day from covid-19 and the numbers are not declining like they need to. If the US hits 200,000 dead by Oct 1, there will still be some trying to deny and deflect.

On this point, we both agree.  And I appreciate the civil dialogue ☺️.

[Radiioman46]

13 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

On this point, we both agree.  And I appreciate the civil dialogue ☺️.

That's of course assuming that all deaths that are reported as being caused by the COVID19 is accurate, and not an inflated report.

 

[DGP1111]

6 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

. . . My entire problem with the CDC (outside of them changing directives and flip flopping more than a couple times) is that their stance on the cruise lines is untenable.  They have not worked with the cruise lines and treated them harsher and at a arms length and totally different than any other industry.

 

. . . 

 

Lastly, who know what the heck the CDC is saying.  Without going back to look, I recall 2 (as in one more than one) announcements to the industry since the 100 day stay.  . . .

Their version of show us what you got, vs working together shows lack of respect, business partnership and disregard for the industry as an entity.  

 

Good evening, Jimbo.

 

I do fully understand the tenor of your statements/feelings there.  It's fair.

 

My response here should be viewed only as a 'What If' posting.  Nothing more.

 

What If the CDC has been in rather detailed contact with the cruise lines about some of the mandated initial changes required for the industry to begin forward motion, and is giving them (the individual cruise lines) opportunity to provide their own specific plans for making that success happen?  What If the CDC offers this instead of mandating a One Size Fits All edict from the start?

 

Great discussion (and occasionally some not so much) here on Cruise Critic tends to strongly focus on the guest experience, and the potential changes for the future.  Lots of guessing and suggestions, which can be a good thing.  Check-in, masks, muster drills, no buffets, casino, elevators, etc etc.  I'll call that the Guest/Guest factor, since it's primarily focused only on the paying customer.

 

Some (but not nearly as much) of the discussion has been on the Guest/Crew factor.   i.e. "What do you mean I can't sit at the main bar in Alchemy?", daily servicing of staterooms, etc.

 

There has apparently been very minimal discussion about the Crew/Crew factor.  I don't think I've personally seen anything whatsoever, but that changes with this post.    What If, in the domino effect of getting things cranking, there is a perceived notion that this is where the industry breaks away from the norms, such as hotels, airlines, theatres, theme parks.  At the end of a shift, no one is 'going home'.  In this unique branch of the travel industry, they are living [almost literally] on top of each other 24/7.  These individuals are the backbone, and if a situation went off the rails, it could be more than challenging for all.  What If that contingency plan is hitting bumps in the early stages?

 

I missing cruise SO much, and I want it to begin as soon as possible, with fantastic days at sea that make me happy.  I'm selfish in saying that, and readily admit it.  Sue me. 😊

 

Jimbo, the only reason I quote you specifically has minimal to do with my post, beyond that I respect your opinion (sometimes differing from my own) and I didn't think you'd take offence or consider it as an attack . . . which can happen from time to time here on CC with some.  La la la la la

 

What If, during some of the think tank discussions within the industry, people come up with a really off-the-wall question that initially/temporarily stops the progress of the discussion, leading the first verbal response to be, "Well, damn".

Here's one (totally hypothetical, of course) for anyone to play with for definitive answers:

 

Debarkation morning.  Passengers are all packed up and heading out after a fun cruise.  Room steward comes in to prepare the cabins for the next bunch of lucky individuals.  What does he/she do with the existing toilet paper? (1) Dispose and start anew, (2) make a cute point on the first square and call it a day.  Such a simple question, yet with varied opinions on solution.

[BlerkOne]

24 minutes ago, DGP1111 said:

 

 

Debarkation morning.  Passengers are all packed up and heading out after a fun cruise.  Room steward comes in to prepare the cabins for the next bunch of lucky individuals.  What does he/she do with the existing toilet paper? (1) Dispose and start anew, (2) make a cute point on the first square and call it a day.  Such a simple question, yet with varied opinions on solution.

 

Gassify the cabins in between cruises. As in fogging ala NCL

 

HOCl Fogging in Staterooms & Public Areas
Fogging in staterooms and public areas with the disinfectant hypochlorous acid (HOCI). Hypochlorous acid is a non-toxic, powerful oxidant that effectively kills bacteria, spores, and viruses. It is natural and safe to use in open areas since it is comprised of natural elements such as water and salt, and electric charge.

[jimbo5544]

44 minutes ago, DGP1111 said:

 

Good evening, Jimbo.

 

I do fully understand the tenor of your statements/feelings there.  It's fair.

 

My response here should be viewed only as a 'What If' posting.  Nothing more.

 

What If the CDC has been in rather detailed contact with the cruise lines about some of the mandated initial changes required for the industry to begin forward motion, and is giving them (the individual cruise lines) opportunity to provide their own specific plans for making that success happen?  What If the CDC offers this instead of mandating a One Size Fits All edict from the start?

 

Great discussion (and occasionally some not so much) here on Cruise Critic tends to strongly focus on the guest experience, and the potential changes for the future.  Lots of guessing and suggestions, which can be a good thing.  Check-in, masks, muster drills, no buffets, casino, elevators, etc etc.  I'll call that the Guest/Guest factor, since it's primarily focused only on the paying customer.

 

Some (but not nearly as much) of the discussion has been on the Guest/Crew factor.   i.e. "What do you mean I can't sit at the main bar in Alchemy?", daily servicing of staterooms, etc.

 

There has apparently been very minimal discussion about the Crew/Crew factor.  I don't think I've personally seen anything whatsoever, but that changes with this post.    What If, in the domino effect of getting things cranking, there is a perceived notion that this is where the industry breaks away from the norms, such as hotels, airlines, theatres, theme parks.  At the end of a shift, no one is 'going home'.  In this unique branch of the travel industry, they are living [almost literally] on top of each other 24/7.  These individuals are the backbone, and if a situation went off the rails, it could be more than challenging for all.  What If that contingency plan is hitting bumps in the early stages?

 

I missing cruise SO much, and I want it to begin as soon as possible, with fantastic days at sea that make me happy.  I'm selfish in saying that, and readily admit it.  Sue me. 😊

 

Jimbo, the only reason I quote you specifically has minimal to do with my post, beyond that I respect your opinion (sometimes differing from my own) and I didn't think you'd take offence or consider it as an attack . . . which can happen from time to time here on CC with some.  La la la la la

 

What If, during some of the think tank discussions within the industry, people come up with a really off-the-wall question that initially/temporarily stops the progress of the discussion, leading the first verbal response to be, "Well, damn".

Here's one (totally hypothetical, of course) for anyone to play with for definitive answers:

 

Debarkation morning.  Passengers are all packed up and heading out after a fun cruise.  Room steward comes in to prepare the cabins for the next bunch of lucky individuals.  What does he/she do with the existing toilet paper? (1) Dispose and start anew, (2) make a cute point on the first square and call it a day.  Such a simple question, yet with varied opinions on solution.

You can quote Me anytime, whether we agree or not.  I echo your comments on desire to cruise.  There are a lot of issues, some large and some small, all will hve to be addressed. 
 

It all needs to be done, one way or the other. 

[bury me at sea]

31 minutes ago, DGP1111 said:

 

Good evening, Jimbo.

 

I do fully understand the tenor of your statements/feelings there.  It's fair.

 

My response here should be viewed only as a 'What If' posting.  Nothing more.

 

What If the CDC has been in rather detailed contact with the cruise lines about some of the mandated initial changes required for the industry to begin forward motion, and is giving them (the individual cruise lines) opportunity to provide their own specific plans for making that success happen?  What If the CDC offers this instead of mandating a One Size Fits All edict from the start?

 

Great discussion (and occasionally some not so much) here on Cruise Critic tends to strongly focus on the guest experience, and the potential changes for the future.  Lots of guessing and suggestions, which can be a good thing.  Check-in, masks, muster drills, no buffets, casino, elevators, etc etc.  I'll call that the Guest/Guest factor, since it's primarily focused only on the paying customer.

 

Some (but not nearly as much) of the discussion has been on the Guest/Crew factor.   i.e. "What do you mean I can't sit at the main bar in Alchemy?", daily servicing of staterooms, etc.

 

There has apparently been very minimal discussion about the Crew/Crew factor.  I don't think I've personally seen anything whatsoever, but that changes with this post.    What If, in the domino effect of getting things cranking, there is a perceived notion that this is where the industry breaks away from the norms, such as hotels, airlines, theatres, theme parks.  At the end of a shift, no one is 'going home'.  In this unique branch of the travel industry, they are living [almost literally] on top of each other 24/7.  These individuals are the backbone, and if a situation went off the rails, it could be more than challenging for all.  What If that contingency plan is hitting bumps in the early stages?

 

I missing cruise SO much, and I want it to begin as soon as possible, with fantastic days at sea that make me happy.  I'm selfish in saying that, and readily admit it.  Sue me. 😊

 

Jimbo, the only reason I quote you specifically has minimal to do with my post, beyond that I respect your opinion (sometimes differing from my own) and I didn't think you'd take offence or consider it as an attack . . . which can happen from time to time here on CC with some.  La la la la la

 

What If, during some of the think tank discussions within the industry, people come up with a really off-the-wall question that initially/temporarily stops the progress of the discussion, leading the first verbal response to be, "Well, damn".

Here's one (totally hypothetical, of course) for anyone to play with for definitive answers:

 

Debarkation morning.  Passengers are all packed up and heading out after a fun cruise.  Room steward comes in to prepare the cabins for the next bunch of lucky individuals.  What does he/she do with the existing toilet paper? (1) Dispose and start anew, (2) make a cute point on the first square and call it a day.  Such a simple question, yet with varied opinions on solution.

 

You make interesting points and ask good questions.

 

Personally I do not believe the CDC is an enemy of the public or the cruising industry.  Neither do I believe the cruise lines are at fault.

 

Cruise lines have inherent public health issues that they are currently unable to resolve, e.g. elevators, providing meals in limited space, and protecting crew members and guests from exposure.

 

We are in the midst of a crisis and I hope we can all retain our mental and physical health as we muddle through, and not place blame when in fact the pandemic itself is the cause.

[boatseller]

15 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Herd immunity has yet to be shown possible with this virus - and well under 10% of the US population has been exposed. It will take years to get to a high enough percentage without hundreds of thousands or more deaths. People who think covid is just another flu are part of the problem.

 

Speaking of flu, flu season will be back in a few months, and with it, increased demand for ICU beds.

But consider this, if heard immunity isn't possible, then why wait for a vaccine?  Because that's exactly what a vaccine does, creates herd immunity.  In other words, if immunity doesn't last, a vaccine won't help...much.  We know this because of the relatively low effectiveness of Influenza vaccines.

[rs45thompson]

20 hours ago, tonit964 said:

I think one of the biggest issues is people boarding with no symptoms and infecting many. 

I agree totally.  However,  your statement can apply to just about anything.  A party, a rally, a re-election convention, church, flights, etc.  No matter where you go or what you do, if it is in a group or crowd it can happen.  With that being said life is continuing.  Just about every state regardless of numbers are opening and they have said the economy will not shut down again regardless of what happens.  The dollar is more important.  Why should cruise lines be any different.  No one is expected to abide by the CDC guidelines but the cruise lines.  Why?  Y'all this is just my opinion.

 

After saying that, I do not go out unless I have to and when I do, I wear my mask.  When cruising begins I will live vicariously through your reviews.  I do not intend to start cruising again until Oct of next year, hopefully everything will be under control by then.  

[shof515]

20 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Evidence of this claim is where?

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242380421.html

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-carnival-fleets-move-after-the-cdc-blocks-crew-members-2020-4

 

they are other articles about this issue

[soccersharon]

Not to mention the states with the most popular embark ports (Florida, Texas, and California) are experiencing a surge of cases.  

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

16 minutes ago, shof515 said:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article242380421.html

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-carnival-fleets-move-after-the-cdc-blocks-crew-members-2020-4

 

they are other articles about this issue

The Herald piece merely quotes executives whining. "It's too expensive to do it right" should be a CLIA trademark (hint: that truth is a large part of why the industry has still failed to resolve the CDC No Sail Order)

[Chris64]

Quoting the CDC? Really?  This is the same group that several years ago put out an official Zombie Apocalypse survival list.  And you take them seriously? No credibility!

[frito58]

Here in lies the problem , how many people do you read …. I NEED A CRUISE NOW .  I swear there are people that would get on a ship even if they knew they were sick  . They are of the mind oh I wont infect anyone. Same ones running around town and not wearing mask .So many don't even believe its real its all a hoax . You read it everyday .  All it would take is one cruise going out and bunch of people coming back sick and the cruise industry is done for a long time. 

[LMaxwell]

19 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

  All I have seen, and I mean ALL is a no sail order, a no sail order extension, a mandate for them to sub their “plan” with no input from the CDC and a color coded mandate for crew repatriation.  Show me something other than these from the “experts” assisting the industry.  

 

I don't think these are necessarily unfair; they are tailored approach to a specific industry in an evolving and developing situation. As far as crew repatriation; I think CDC made it expensive and difficult for cruise lines to meet, but not impossible, and I don't think cruise lines were unfairly targeted. If the mindset is these actions are unfair, yes, you can easily cite any number of actions to support your claim. 

 

Practically speaking, do I think what the CDC is asking cruise lines to come up with as a plan is feasible and workable? No. Do I think it is on the cruise lines to come up with a method of compliance? Yes. That's not a suggestion of a solution; I don't think I have a better idea than all the minds at work on the problem. I don't know how you guarantee not to drop off 2000-6000 sick people at a US port, or how you have standby capacity in other ships, or how you strike a deal with an island nation government that probably couldn't handle 25 sick people let alone 2500. And so on. Never before thought of scenarios with no realistic solution. This all sounds very challenging to me. 

 

If the cruise lines are soliciting advice from people outside of their field, consultants, logistics experts, etc., I am not aware or privy to it. I do find it interesting.  Hope you have been doing well Jimbo